Good or Bad Idea for 4AD/19-Nor?
- 12-06-2004, 10:22 PM
Good or Bad Idea for 4AD/19-Nor?
Just curious peeps,
In regards to my previous thread I am going to be buying
the bottle of 4AD and also in the process on purchasing a
bottle a bottle of 19-Nor. I am having trouble getting too
much else so I will have to make due. My question is this,
I only have enough for a 4 week cycle running both at the
same time, but what I wanted to know was whether I
would still see the efects from it if I was to run a 4 week
cycle of M4OHN starting after the four week 4AD/9-Nor
cycle? Cycle is as followed (remember I only have 1 bottle
of each) + M4OHN.)
300 mgs. of 4AD stacking with 250 mgs. of 19-Nor. Then
followed by a 4 week cycle of M4OHN. My cycle for M4OHN
is this. Considering that I had to get the most outa a 1 bottle
(90 capsules) . I found a lot of people had greater
results by starting the cycle low, as most say that it takes
at least two weeks before seeing gains. So this is what I did:
So I thought that I would use those 2 weeks to gte my body
used to it then turn it up a bit.
week 1 : 10 mgs.
week 2 : 10 mgs. + 1 on workout days (3 days a week)
week 3 : 20 mgs.
week 4 : 20 mgs. + 2 on workout days (3 days a week)
As you can see that I gradually increased the dosage to a
to reach the point where most seem to see the gains.
Please any feedback on what you think.
- 12-06-2004, 10:31 PM
Just to add my stats for dosing purposes...
6'0 151 lbs. I'm just guessing but probably 3% BF at the
12-07-2004, 02:00 AM
Wow, that's really low body fat, anyway, the cycle looks fine. I'd guess that you'll see some fair strength gains, if not much weight
12-07-2004, 02:04 AM
Well figuring 3% is the absolute lowest you can possibly be (due to spinal column and intramuscular fat deposits), I would say you need to eat something farily quick for health reasons.
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12-07-2004, 02:10 PM
for comparison shredded, competing BB'ers get to around 5% on the day of the contest. if your leaner than that i want to see a picture.
12-08-2004, 02:13 AM
What are your goals? Do you want to gain weight? If you're 6', 150lbs I dont think you need hormones to meet your goal unless you're an extreme ecto-hardgainer. Just eat clean and lift heavy and youll pack on mass like nobody's business.
IMO, 4AD and 19-Nor arent going to do much for you. Are those transdermal doses? If so, you'd want to go with 600mg 4AD, 400mg 19-Nor and a good anti-e. If those are oral doses you're not going to notice much at all.
I'd scrap the 19-Nor altogether and run 4 weeks of 1test/4AD in a 1:2 ratio. Come off with Nolvadex. If you're eating right you'll gain at LEAST 10lbs.
12-17-2004, 12:37 AM
Its bee awhile since I've been here and more than
gratified with the feedback. I truly appologize about
the body fat % I stated earlier as I was just guessing.
But I did get it correctly measured which I appear to
have 5.3 BF %. I guess I just under estimated myself
from most people saying that I'm skinny. I vowed to
myself that by March I'd be a new person.
My goals are to be 175-180 lbs. and keep the same bf.
My goals are also to be as safe as possible, I just was
under the impression that a 4AD/19-Nor would be a safe
cycle to do; with very few side effects and followed by
4 week M4OHN + Pct as mentioned.
I have chosen to stay away from 1-Test just because of
the sides I have heard some people experienced. But then
again everybody reacts differently to different things.
Just my 2 cents.
Thank you all for your reply, its always appreciated.
12-17-2004, 12:57 AM
I'm gonna jump in here with a point not related to androgen use.
My experience has shown me that when rebounding from a rather lean state (nowhere near as lean as you say), upon introduction of maintenance and slightly above level of calories, I put on a noticeable amount of LBM very quickly. So much so that this is a new motive for me at getting lean, other than of course looking great.
My point is that if you train and are that lean and introduce an increase of coloies alone you would fair quite well without androgens. If you do not train already, and are looking to use androgens to quick start LBM acruel when you are first starting out, I advise against it without at least putting some consistent time into training.
300mg 4AD and 250 Nordiol orally is pretty much useless.
Food is quite anabolic.
Life is a terminal condition.
12-17-2004, 02:00 AM
I agree with b5150 bro - stay away from anabolic drugs right now.
From experience, I can tell you that a 1test/4AD/OHT combo has given me e****lent, retainable gains in mass and strength. The only sides Ive ever noticed was an increase in libido and maybe some mild lethargy toward the end of the 4-week cycle. IF you do decide do go that route, that is what Id recommend, for both safety and results.
I would say a good, clean bulking diet, some regimented supplementation with Creatine, Flax/Fish Oil,etc, and a good routine with some heavy core movements as its base will give you at least 10lbs of LBM over the next 8-10 weeks. No need for androgens at your current weight my friend...
12-17-2004, 02:14 AM
The cycle seems pretty weak to me. I'd take the advice you're hearing here. I think you should add 500 to 1000 calories to your diet, get plenty of protein and lift. If you're going to take anything, you might as well stick with creatine and maybe even a testosterone booster just to see if it has any affect on you. Some people swear by Tribulus or Unleashed by ProteinFactory.com.. It might be worth a try... And atleast if it works for you, you can get it after January to keep using it.. NO2 supplements seem to be pretty popular as well..
12-17-2004, 10:50 AM
6foot and 150? Is this a joke? Eat more, train harder and gain weight. Your in no condition for ph's
12-17-2004, 10:52 AM
I love these kids who want to gain nothing but muscle. You cant keep the same bf and increase mass by 30lb in a couple months, you can "vow" to yourself that this is gonna happen, but its not. Your goals are ridiculus.
12-17-2004, 05:29 PM
19-nor and 4-ad compete for receptors. at least that's the general consensus (i dont have any solid data to back that up) - just want to give you a potential heads-up; further investigation is up to you.
12-17-2004, 06:10 PM
Very true - You could definately gain 30lbs in 6-12 months training naturally, but you're not going to keep your 4% BF rating. There are things you can do to minimize fat gain, but dont expect to be a ripped 180 for another couple of years.I love these kids who want to gain nothing but muscle. You cant keep the same bf and increase mass by 30lb in a couple months, you can "vow" to yourself that this is gonna happen, but its not. Your goals are ridiculus.
12-19-2004, 01:46 AM
Thanks for all your replies. I don't really want to go into
the whole diet thing again. I explained the whole 30-40-30
meal program that I am on in a previous thread and I have
already upped a 3200 calorie intake diet to a current 4000
total calories. Honestly I do agree with you to work
reach close to my peak before taking ph's. I that is what I plan to do.
I am well aware that it is nearly impossible to keep a 5% bf level
when on a bulking cycle and I want to gain some extra bf but as I
mentioned that I had M4OHN which I at first was planning to use as
a part of my bulking cycle but if I did want to keep my bf low (not saying
5%) M4ohn has been known to most on this forum that I have read was
used to shred. Which is what I paln to use it for.
As for the cycle of 4AD/19-Nor; those doses were used by Big Cat.
Stack #1 - Economic beginner cycle for moderate gains.
Week 1 through 8, use 250 mg of 19Nor after breakfast and again after dinner and take 500 mg of 4-diol 45-30 minutes prior to workout or 250 mg after lunch on non-workout days. The motivation here is to use two compounds that use different target hormones (testosterone and nandrolone) to get that double benefit, while avoiding the pitfall of stacking two products that would use the same conversion enzyme. Meaning if you were to drive up the amounts they would not compete with each other.
It's an example of an iso-stack, meaning the amounts remain the same throughout the duration of the stack. This is the most common the best way to assess the efficacy of a product and see what effect it has on you. This is advisable on a first cycle to determine what is causing which effect, allowing you to make a more informed decision the next time in terms of efficacy and safety. These are the amounts and products I usually recommend to beginners looking for a first decent stack. Both products can be obtained from plenty of high quality sources and shouldn't run you too much money, making this a strong but economic stack and an e****lent choice for most beginners. Notice that I split the two doses of Nor up, since they last longer at the receptor which means you keep a constant level of nandrolone throughout the day. For constant levels of 4-diol you'd need 4-5 doses, so instead we opted to use it as a pre-workout supplement to boost aggresivity in the gym and help recuperation and protein resynthesis afterwards. In the mean time you are getting the best of both worlds. This stack should yield decent results.
Can't be that bad if Big Cat recommends it. So that answers your question THEBRAKES
4AD and 19-Nor do not compete for receptors; as 19-Nor targets Nandrolone and 4AD targets testosterone.
As for nutrition I got my **** on track, I have done my research and continue to do research on anything before it goes into my body. But I will honour your word and not take them until I have reached my peak of natural growth. But the time will come so why not learn
as much as possible before I decide.
Thank you all
12-19-2004, 02:15 AM
Ok, I appologize from the first post...the 19-Nor is the
same in the cycle but the 4AD was upped to 500 mgs.
Which still some say is still not high enough.
So if I was planning on doing it sooner than later I
don't seen why upping the doses on someone who weighs
150 lbs? As the same for M4OHN, if people who are 170-
190 are seeing gains at starting dose of 6-10 mgs. and
peak at 30 mgs. why would I ever attempt to even going
to 30-35 mgs.
I think that this cycle is probably one of the
safest and cost efficient. 4AD is one of the most effective
for the money raises high testosterone levels, with almost
no estrogen conversion. And Nor is difficlut to convert
with minimal side effects; and although Nor can effect
erectile difficuties, the 4AD should counter act well .
Considering that I only have a bottle of each, I would like
to ask if continuing on a product called HGC transdermal
by Higher Power to keep testosterone levels high (as a
continuation of the 4AD and if using M4OHN as a continuation
for the Nandrolone followed by a PCT like Nolva.
Just curious if that could work or not. I'm sure its a lot
less stronger than continuing on the pf's but **** it could be a
lot better than wasting my time on a 4 week cycle that
probably won't do ****.
I'm really curious, what do you think?
12-19-2004, 03:09 AM
Just an FYI. Androdiol and Norandrodiol compete for the same receptors - which is why you should take them atleast a few hours away from one another...
12-19-2004, 03:50 AM
I think you need to do a lot more research bro -
I wouldnt give a dime to higher power for something they've labeled 'HCG', obviously to fool people who dont know any better into thinking its Human Chorionic Gonadrotropin, which it is most certainly not. Its a transdermal trib extract! If the active ingredients in Tribulus are SAPONINS, then I dont see how a transdermal would be effective. Saponins have very high molecular weights, not a good thing for current transdermal carriers that are available.
4-AD definately does have estrogen conversion, and yes both 19-NOR-DIOL and 4-ANDROSTENE-DIOL compete for the same CONVERSION ENZYME. Their TARGET HORMONES are Nandralone and Testosterone.
A 4-week cycle of 4AD/19NOR at those dosages isnt going to do much of anything. It will shut down your HPTA, though.
Ive never used M4OHN, but I do know its not known as a big mass gainer. It may help stave off muscle atrophy in a caloric defecit, but it's not going to give you slabs of quality musce at the dose you're planning on running it.
So, you are going to follow a weak 4 week prohormone stack with another 4 weeks of transdermal tribulus terresteris and low-dose M4OHN.
It will be a big waste of time and money. Personally, I think you should sell the prohormones you have and use the money to buy some protien powder and creatine.
12-19-2004, 08:39 AM
I completely agree with BV (guess why? look at my sign ).Originally Posted by BigVrunga
This is the most proven PH bulking cycle without relevant side effects (just keep Nolva on hand).
The only sides reported from 1-Test has been letargy and loss of libido, of which 4AD keeps care of it, while 4oht keeps estrogens under control (hence much much less risk of gyno). Transdermal is of course the way to go. Ok, you may get some red skin and itches, rotate immediately application spots and you'll be fine
12-19-2004, 08:44 AM
I did and loved itOriginally Posted by BigVrunga
If its his first cycle and he doses it right, he will gain a fair amount of LBM.
Expecially if he is an ecto (like myself).
Ah, unless he is a non-responder (unlike myself )
If he is really decided to do PS, at his weight, I would take 24mg of m4ohn alone, splitted every 3/4 hours for 6 weeks.
With a decent diet and training routine he should be able to pack 5-6lbs of muscles.
And he may just run 6oxo for 3-4 weeks since m4ohn is very very few suppressive.
12-19-2004, 08:48 AM
Can I ask your training experience and diet?Originally Posted by SHREDDED4WEIGHT
How much do you gain each month "natural"?
Many people suggested to just EAT and take creatine and that would be enough unless you are a true ecto and NEED to meet a goal (realistic bro, not like 20lbs of LBM in 2 months).
12-19-2004, 09:01 AM
12-19-2004, 07:02 PM
Bobo has previously rendered the same opinion, that competition for conversion is unlikely to be a problem.Originally Posted by judge-mental
FWIW, I think 19-nor is a waste of time, that 4AD is not necessarily any less side effect free than 1T, and all due respect to Big Cat and Pogue, they wrote their prohormone guides long ago, before a deep practical use base of experience with PH existed. BC's and Pogue's guides/FAQs are just good basic primers/starting points and some of their recommendations haven't be born out in relation to the realworld user feedback at serious study boards like this.
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