Hair Loss Prevention

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    Hey Max32 -

    It probably is the prostanazol causing the loss, as 4OHT and EQ are known to not be harsh on the hair line. I dont know if prostanazol converts to DHT or not, but if its like Winstrol its derived from DHT. That in itself could cause the problem with the actual androgen molecule causing the trouble at the scalp.

    If this is the case, then the only thing that's going to help you is an topical anti-androgen like spiro or fluridil. The 5% spiro is pretty harsh, but the 2% solution from Dr.Lee dosent smell bad at all and is fine to use 2x per day. Another thing to keep in mind is that Spiro has a relatively short halflife in the skin, so you really want to use a 2x/day (or more) application regimen to see maximal results.

    Finasteride only blocks DHT conversion at the 5AR enzyme, and that's probably not what's happening here...again this is referencing winstrol,but it dosent convert to DHT. Chances are prostanazol dosent either.

    Saw Palmetto is good for you so you should take that anyway

    I would think that with your already thick hair, Nizoral and 2x per day spiro2% would work well.

    BV

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    Saw palmetto blocks testpstone thats a first ive heard...i take it everyday...

    i actually heard saw palmetto is good for hairloss...


    Quote Originally Posted by Max32
    Alright guys, need your advice here. Used AAS in the past with no issues (winny, eq, dbol, test, primo, deca, proviron). Recently started a EQ, prostanazol (prob the culprit) and 4-0HT cyp cycle. Recently, I noticed that the hair right above my temples is slightly thinning. This came as a shock to me as I actually have to cut my hair once a wk (myself) because it grows so fast, and use thinning sheers as it is so damn thick and course. I dropped the prostanazol after 4 weeks, and am continuing the EQ and 4-OHT cyp. I purchased some NIZORAL (non-rx strength) and have been using that 4x wk. I was contemplating using finasteride, as I have never had anything lower my libido, erections, etc.... Any advice guys would be greatly appreciated and I am open to suggestions. I do have some saw palmetto extract at my disposal but am weary of using that if it may infact block testosterone.....
    Also, I just ordered some spiro. I would not mind using that at night, but do not want to have to use tsomething during the day, if at all possible.
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    Hey Bv ,i have changed my testostrone levels though my diet..(healthy protein carbs and fats)

    i know my testostrone levsl are higher than before...with this in mind..would higher testostrone levels increase dht(asumign im predisposed to make pattern baldness) and thus increase my chances for losing hair?
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    Yeah I would think so - more test would mean more converted DHT. You know though, Im not sure if the body has a method for mediating DHT conversion when the testosterone is produced naturally.

    That's a good question smeton, I would think that it definitely would mean more DHT. But you'd have to have quite a bit more test in your system to make a drastic effect o your hairline. I would just keep an eye on your hair line. If you think its starting to thin out, then take action.

    BV
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    I have used Finasteride for about the past 4 years, I have had no side effects from it at all, I think it may help slow hair loss, but it has not increased the amount of hair I have, I have read if u stop using it, the hair loss will really increase, I have not stopped taking it in the past four years, I dont need any more chrome showing on my head than I already have.....
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    If propecia blocks the conversion of testosterone to DHT, what happens to that testosterone? Does it typically convert to something else right away? Or does it remain testosterone (thus possibly increasing free test?)
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    Well there are the issues with SHBG taking care of excess free test in your system. Plus, aromatase would be converting that test to estrogen.

    DHT is the body's natural aromatase inhibitor that helps keep your hormone levels in check, plus its one of your primary 'strength' hormones. I wouldnt use an oral anti-androgen unless i HAD to.

    BV
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    you probally have higher testostrone levels than your dad , your grandfather, his dad...etc your ancestors....

    so if they went bald ...does that mean your gonna go bald sooner because of higher testostrone levels...provided that you dont use haircare products, but if you do use haurcare products , it could take longer or you could never lose your hair..technology is alwats advancing


    Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    Yeah I would think so - more test would mean more converted DHT. You know though, Im not sure if the body has a method for mediating DHT conversion when the testosterone is produced naturally.

    That's a good question smeton, I would think that it definitely would mean more DHT. But you'd have to have quite a bit more test in your system to make a drastic effect o your hairline. I would just keep an eye on your hair line. If you think its starting to thin out, then take action.

    BV
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    Quote Originally Posted by RipdnTxs
    I have used Finasteride for about the past 4 years, I have had no side effects from it at all, I think it may help slow hair loss, but it has not increased the amount of hair I have, I have read if u stop using it, the hair loss will really increase, I have not stopped taking it in the past four years, I dont need any more chrome showing on my head than I already have.....
    So you can STOP taking Finasteride once you've achieved a "comfortable" level of hair? I thought that stuff was lifetime...
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    Quote Originally Posted by CEDeoudes59
    remember, its not necessarily if you shed - it's if the hair grows back. I shed a ton - but it grows back, only the hairline is having the problem (but thats genetic). Hair transplant in a few years.

    as for Nioxin - hardly evidence that it kills DHT or prevents hairloss in anyway, i've tried it - it's awesome shampoo though.

    my experience(s) anyway
    This might sound stupid but...how can you tell if it GROWS back? How many months/weeks would it take for you to be able to interpret this. I have been shedding like crazy for several weeks now (no shedding during my 3 week cycle of Superdrol/Max LMG and liquid Nolvadex as PCT) but the shedding started afterward...
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMonster
    how can you tell if it GROWS back? How many months/weeks would it take for you to be able to interpret this?
    If it works for you, you'll start to see regrowth after 3 months of use. Merck studied this by counting hair density over a period of time. I think the amount of time has something to do with the lifecycle of a hair.

    Quote Originally Posted by TheMonster
    I have been shedding like crazy for several weeks now (no shedding during my 3 week cycle of Superdrol/Max LMG and liquid Nolvadex as PCT) but the shedding started afterward...
    I think it started after your 3 week cycle because it takes time for an attacked hair folicle to actually come out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMonster
    So you can STOP taking Finasteride once you've achieved a "comfortable" level of hair? I thought that stuff was lifetime...
    If you're taking finasteride to combat a rise in DHT resulting from introducing exogenous testosterone, then you can halt it after a cycle.

    If you're taking fin to halt hairloss, then yes, once you quit blocking the type II 5-alpha reductatase enzyme, it's going to start converting test to DHT again. So yes, you have to keep using it if you want to keep your hair once you're started losing it.
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    I just got done with 4 weeks of Superdrol/6 weeks of Max LMG, concurrently, and have thinned and shedded like mad. It did take a while for it to start but it is more than evident at this point. I'm going to get on the topicals and front load some finasteride before another cycle. I believe it's the Max LMG since people are saying Superdrol is easy on the hairline. Then again, I may be totally wrong since different things have different effects on individuals. It did take about 3 weeks to start noticing the shedding/thinning.

    I've checked out Minoxidil.com, as previously suggested in this thread, and it's full of useful infromation even if you don't order from them. We'll see how it goes. I better start early to stop this stupidity
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    your the second person ive heard of that it COULD have been from superdrol
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    Quote Originally Posted by smeton_yea
    your the second person ive heard of that it COULD have been from superdrol
    Any anabolic compound that messes with your hormones is going to have androgenic properties. Superdrol's just happen to be less severe than others.
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    smeton, SD can have an effect, but I thought his Max LMG was suppose to be much worse on this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by rrgg
    If it works for you, you'll start to see regrowth after 3 months of use. Merck studied this by counting hair density over a period of time. I think the amount of time has something to do with the lifecycle of a hair.

    I think it started after your 3 week cycle because it takes time for an attacked hair folicle to actually come out.
    I have noticed that the majority of my "shedding" is coming from the very front of my scalp...is this normal?
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    If thats where your supposed to lose hair geneticly, then yes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LCSULLA
    If thats where your supposed to lose hair geneticly, then yes.
    So if the majority of my shedding is coming from the front of my scalp then it means its genetic and that I'm subject for MPB?

    I was pretty sure that since my father, grandfather(s), uncle, and 26 year old brother all are not balding that I wasn't going to be a victim of MPB. Also, I never experienced hairloss and any previous PH cycles.

    Is it possible that from a PH/Nolvadex cycle that it can cause shedding mainly in the front of my scalp? Since I don't know, maybe those follicles were the most DHT-sensitive...?

    Any feedback is appreciated.
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    So if the majority of my shedding is coming from the front of my scalp then it means its genetic and that I'm subject for MPB?

    I was pretty sure that since my father, grandfather(s), uncle, and 26 year old brother all are not balding that I wasn't going to be a victim of MPB. Also, I never experienced hairloss and any previous PH cycles.
    It might not even be from the cycle you did - might just be time for you to start losing your hair. Judging from your age (21), it probably is androgen related, however.

    How far apart were your cycles? I remember a couple years back when the 4weeks on/4weeks off/4 weeks on cycling for 1test/4AD was the big thing, many people reported shedding in the second cycle. This is good evidence that androgen metabolites stay in the body (or at least in the scalp) for a while after the cycle/PCT is over.

    The pattern of hair loss is also genetic - the sites on your scalp were you notice thinning from androgens are most likely the spots on your head where you'd start seeing thinning naturally.

    Is it possible that from a PH/Nolvadex cycle that it can cause shedding mainly in the front of my scalp? Since I don't know, maybe those follicles were the most DHT-sensitive...?
    Like you suggested, the follicles that are most *androgen* sensitive would be effected first.

    One thing to keep in mind is, on a cycle of compounds that convert to DHT through 5AR (like test), any shedding you see is through an accelerated natural process (ie, DHT sensitivity in the scalp) and can be controlled failry easily with Finasteride/Azelaic Acid/Spiro.

    However, with a lot of these new compounds comming out that theoretically dont convert to DHT, you are seeing hairloss as a result of some other pathway...a pathway that no one really knows anything about. Most likely, this is the androgen molecule itself aggrevating the follicle receptors in the scalp - and in this case - your ONLY recourse is to apply a generalized anti-androgen topically to the scalp. Sprio, or Fluridil are the only ones I know of.

    As mentioned in previous posts, Spiro has a relatively short halflife - so if you are experienced hairloss from a non-DHT-converting androgen, then I *highly* recommend that you start applying 2% sprio AT LEAST 2x per day to the affected areas of the scalp.

    You might even be better off with a 3x or 4x per day application.

    BV
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    Red face


    Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    It might not even be from the cycle you did - might just be time for you to start losing your hair. Judging from your age (21), it probably is androgen related, however.

    How far apart were your cycles? I remember a couple years back when the 4weeks on/4weeks off/4 weeks on cycling for 1test/4AD was the big thing, many people reported shedding in the second cycle. This is good evidence that androgen metabolites stay in the body (or at least in the scalp) for a while after the cycle/PCT is over.

    The pattern of hair loss is also genetic - the sites on your scalp were you notice thinning from androgens are most likely the spots on your head where you'd start seeing thinning naturally.



    Like you suggested, the follicles that are most *androgen* sensitive would be effected first.

    One thing to keep in mind is, on a cycle of compounds that convert to DHT through 5AR (like test), any shedding you see is through an accelerated natural process (ie, DHT sensitivity in the scalp) and can be controlled failry easily with Finasteride/Azelaic Acid/Spiro.

    However, with a lot of these new compounds comming out that theoretically dont convert to DHT, you are seeing hairloss as a result of some other pathway...a pathway that no one really knows anything about. Most likely, this is the androgen molecule itself aggrevating the follicle receptors in the scalp - and in this case - your ONLY recourse is to apply a generalized anti-androgen topically to the scalp. Sprio, or Fluridil are the only ones I know of.

    As mentioned in previous posts, Spiro has a relatively short halflife - so if you are experienced hairloss from a non-DHT-converting androgen, then I *highly* recommend that you start applying 2% sprio AT LEAST 2x per day to the affected areas of the scalp.

    You might even be better off with a 3x or 4x per day application.

    BV
    Thanks BV. I have 5% Spiro from CNW which I've been applying every night, I've been using it for almost a week now but still shedding. I also just ordered some Azelaic Acid...

    I'm hoping the shedding stops soon...
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    It might not even be from the cycle you did - might just be time for you to start losing your hair. Judging from your age (21), it probably is androgen related, however.

    How far apart were your cycles? I remember a couple years back when the 4weeks on/4weeks off/4 weeks on cycling for 1test/4AD was the big thing, many people reported shedding in the second cycle. This is good evidence that androgen metabolites stay in the body (or at least in the scalp) for a while after the cycle/PCT is over.

    The pattern of hair loss is also genetic - the sites on your scalp were you notice thinning from androgens are most likely the spots on your head where you'd start seeing thinning naturally.



    Like you suggested, the follicles that are most *androgen* sensitive would be effected first.

    One thing to keep in mind is, on a cycle of compounds that convert to DHT through 5AR (like test), any shedding you see is through an accelerated natural process (ie, DHT sensitivity in the scalp) and can be controlled failry easily with Finasteride/Azelaic Acid/Spiro.

    However, with a lot of these new compounds comming out that theoretically dont convert to DHT, you are seeing hairloss as a result of some other pathway...a pathway that no one really knows anything about. Most likely, this is the androgen molecule itself aggrevating the follicle receptors in the scalp - and in this case - your ONLY recourse is to apply a generalized anti-androgen topically to the scalp. Sprio, or Fluridil are the only ones I know of.

    As mentioned in previous posts, Spiro has a relatively short halflife - so if you are experienced hairloss from a non-DHT-converting androgen, then I *highly* recommend that you start applying 2% sprio AT LEAST 2x per day to the affected areas of the scalp.

    You might even be better off with a 3x or 4x per day application.

    BV
    Hey BV, is it possible to apply Spiro and still be able to style your hair in the morning?
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    Oh yeah - its not a big deal at all. The 5% spiro gels are *really* potent (they smell bad and burn my scalp), so dont use those for general scalp protection. The 2% solution from minoxidil.com is top notch though, dosent smell at all and is fine to apply multiple times per day.

    BV
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    BV you are the man !

    I want to thank you for all this info. I'm planning on my first cycle next month but recently noticed I'm thinning at the temples more quickly. I realised I had to act now so I ordered some 2% azelaic/minoxidil solution and 5% spiro.

    Wish I read a bit more before getting the spiro as it smells real bad. So I've just ordered the 2% solution you mentioned above. Hope it's better on the old nose. Personally I don't mind as I know it's good for the hair but I don't like others screwing up their nose and asking what the smell is.

    Might have been covered elsewhere but is minoxidil any use for temple thinning?
    I read that it was only useful for the crown but what's your take on it ?

    Can't find any of this stuff here in the UK so I need to order from the US which is a pity.

    Once again, well done.
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    BV, in your above post you mentioned spiro and fluridil are the only topical anti-androgens that you know of that will help with AAS that do not convert to DHT but still have a negative effect on your hairline. What about AA?
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    Tad50 - AA inhibits only DHT, while spiro and fluridil inhibit androgen molecules in general. So, while AA can be very effective against natural progression of MPB, or hairloss brought on by anabolics that convert to DHT, it wouldnt be effective if the actual steroid molecule was causing the problem.

    BV you are the man !

    I want to thank you for all this info. I'm planning on my first cycle next month but recently noticed I'm thinning at the temples more quickly. I realised I had to act now so I ordered some 2% azelaic/minoxidil solution and 5% spiro.
    Thanks bro, and your welcome There are a lot of knowledgeble people here at AM - you'll see more and more of that the longer you're here.

    Might have been covered elsewhere but is minoxidil any use for temple thinning? I read that it was only useful for the crown but what's your take on it ?
    I believe those studies concerning minoxidil only being effective on the crown of the head were done without minox in combination with an anti-androgen. In my personal experience, it works all over the scalp, including the 'widows peak' areas. Frontal hair might be more difficult to grow back (I have a particularly less-responsive area on the right side of the front of my head). Ive seen better results after I started applying a 3rd application of minoxidil to the problem area each day. Dr.Lee sells a 15% minoxidil solution - its expensive, but Ive read good things about it.

    BV
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    Check this out, a report on Dateline about various methods of hair restoration:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6590766/

    Oddly enough, the 'Laser Comb' showed very positive results. I did some brief searching and, while very expensive ($400 - $700) it does seem interesting. I dont know if the theories behind how it works are bogus or not, I have to look into it further.

    BV
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    Check this out, a report on Dateline about various methods of hair restoration:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6590766/

    Oddly enough, the 'Laser Comb' showed very positive results. I did some brief searching and, while very expensive ($400 - $700) it does seem interesting. I dont know if the theories behind how it works are bogus or not, I have to look into it further.

    BV
    Hey BV. What do you know about [liquid] Nolvadex causing hair shedding? I've taken ph's in the past with no problem like 1-AD and I know that is supposed to cause shedding but I've always used OTC products like 6 oxo. This previous cycle was my first real time experimenting with Nolvadex...
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    I dont think its the Nolva bro. The only way I could think that your PCT regimen would lead to hair shedding might be spiking in your natural test causing more conversion to DHT.

    One thing that might be happening is that you might have a spike in test/DHT from your HPTA comming back online, in addition to any androgen metabolites that are still circulating in your system. Maybe...Im not sure bro. If you're not genetically prone to MPB, just use some topical antiandrogens and you should be OK.

    BV
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    Oddly enough, the 'Laser Comb' showed very positive results. I did some brief searching and, while very expensive ($400 - $700) it does seem interesting. I dont know if the theories behind how it works are bogus or not, I have to look into it further.

    BV
    I think the laser comb could be a good "finishing" tool in coaxing stubborn hairs to grow again, but obviously all the basics need to be addressed first (like Minox, Finasteride etc.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by travbedaman
    I think the laser comb could be a good "finishing" tool in coaxing stubborn hairs to grow again, but obviously all the basics need to be addressed first (like Minox, Finasteride etc.)
    That's not what they said in the study. It was "unscientific" but a little bit serious-- they had a doctor monitor results for a full year with various treatments including some OTC stuff.
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    Ok im sold on using topical lotions for my hair(AA, nizoral, spiro if hair gets bald enough)

    but what does minox do..it is oral correct...and minox is only if hair is REALLY GETTING OF OUT CONTROL ?

    Quote Originally Posted by travbedaman
    I think the laser comb could be a good "finishing" tool in coaxing stubborn hairs to grow again, but obviously all the basics need to be addressed first (like Minox, Finasteride etc.)
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    but what does minox do..it is oral correct...and minox is only if hair is REALLY GETTING OF OUT CONTROL ?
    Minoxidil is a topical. You only want to use minoxidil if you're losing your hair, or if you're certain you're genetically prone to MPB. If you have a full head of hair and want to protect your hairline when you'll have elevated androgen levels, then just use DHT/androgen inhibitors. (Spiro, Fluridil, Azelaic Acid, Finasteride, etc)

    BV
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    Ok for us guys that have some of our hair...think Jude law with a lil more hair at the temples...then using the topicals(AA, Nizoral, spiro) should work if it blocks the dht.

    even if we are prone to MPB..it could keep it from getting any thinner/balder right?

    do you understand what im saying?

    what im saying is that if any compund blocks the dht from making the hair thin, then the hair can not thin, or do i stand to be corrected?

    so if i continue to take the topicals that block dht ill always have a full head of head right


    if that didnt make sense ill do it again...im not even thinking im feeling ..on this low carb diet...

    i cant wait intill i eat a big mac..damn these low carb diets can drain alot of energy.

    but its effective for fatloss for a short time peroid to reduce fat.




    Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    Minoxidil is a topical. You only want to use minoxidil if you're losing your hair, or if you're certain you're genetically prone to MPB. If you have a full head of hair and want to protect your hairline when you'll have elevated androgen levels, then just use DHT/androgen inhibitors. (Spiro, Fluridil, Azelaic Acid, Finasteride, etc)

    BV
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    I've been using the minox/aa combo now for almost 3.5 months...I did exp a descent amount of shedding at first as I stated earlier.

    What do you think would happen if I just stopped using the minox/aa right now...would those new hairs ever grow back since the minox/aa was stopped? Or would it just make me lose them for nothing? And if they did grow back, would they stay, or would I end up shedding them again?
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    Lifted,

    I'd like to know the answer to that one too from a theoretical perspective. But if you have already made it through the shedding phase (ie it has stopped or slowed considerably) I would keep it going and see what results you get for at least another 3-6 months. No reason to stop now?
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    Smeton,

    From the little bit of research I have done at hairlosstalk, it seems that your best bet at maintenance may come from low dose finasteride (~mg ed).
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    Quote Originally Posted by lifted
    I've been using the minox/aa combo now for almost 3.5 months...I did exp a descent amount of shedding at first as I stated earlier.

    What do you think would happen if I just stopped using the minox/aa right now...would those new hairs ever grow back since the minox/aa was stopped? Or would it just make me lose them for nothing? And if they did grow back, would they stay, or would I end up shedding them again?
    I think I undestand your question. You would lose any hair that you have regrown. And if the minox/ aa caused the loss then it may grow back
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    Cardinal, I agree. But I've recently started getting acne again out of nowhere..starting to get pretty bad again on the face...don't know why, as I've been hormone free for awhile now...maybe I just took longer to recover from my last cycle?? No idea...but I'm doing the process of elimination to see what is causing the breakouts. I've been on V12 Turbo of and on for ahwile now and I seem to remember guys getting acne from it in the past..that along with the minox/aa are the only "supps" that I've been doing. So after I take the V12 away for awhile and the acne doesn't calm down, I may have to eliminate the minox/aa next in order to see if it's the cause or not....sucks, I know.

    LCSULLA, yep, that's exactly what I was asking...wanted to know if the initial hairloss from minox/aa would grow back again even if I stopped using it.
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    V12 (and arginine in general) give me horrible acne - I can't even use Arginine-based products.

    I dont know about the inital hairloss lifted, Im sure its based on genetics.
  

  
 

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