BV how many showers do you take a day. I normally took one before i started minox, but now i end up taking two. One in the morning, then let my hair dry, then apply minox. Then once again at night, then apply minox again an hr before bed. Am i doing this wrong? should i just be taking one shower a day?

also i was wondering what you used for a daily shampoo and conditioner when you arent using the regrowth formula?

Alex

BV how many showers do you take a day. I normally took one before i started minox, but now i end up taking two. One in the morning, then let my hair dry, then apply minox. Then once again at night, then apply minox again an hr before bed. Am i doing this wrong? should i just be taking one shower a day?

also i was wondering what you used for a daily shampoo and conditioner when you arent using the regrowth formula?

Alex

I usually take 2 showers a day - one in the AM before work and one in the PM after the gym. I usually use some kind of salon-grade thickening shampoo and conditioner (my girl usually picks that up for me) for the 1st shampoo of the day. EOD in the AM I'll also use the Regrowth Treatment Shampoo.

On alternate days in the evening, Ill use a Pyrithione Zinc shampoo. (Head & Shoulders, etc).

The best thing to do is apply the treatment shampoos as soon as you get in the tub, then let it sit on your head and rinse right before you get out. It's an easy way to make sure its on there for a good 5-10 minutes.

BV

Originally Posted by neoborn

Can someone tell me where I can get that 5% spiro, people keep referring to "Custom" what is this custom?

I am in Canada is anyone has some Canadian links.

I am thinning and receeding at either side not in the middle of my forehead. I had some results from dosing about 3 x 320mg saw palmetto but would like to try some topical shampoo / treatments on these areas. I have read the posts but if someone can explain that would be good.

Thanks for any responses

Neoborn

I attached a couple interesting articles; one summarizing hair treatment options, the other describes LLLT. Just recieved an eight diode laser brush today.

Brief update:

Kind of feel a little disillusioned. The hairs on my temple are slowly darkening and growing (they used to be a light blonde but now match the color of my hair) but my scalp seems to have no progress.

I suppose that it is impossible to tell but every day when I see what my hair looks like, it looks like there is no difference. Fortunately, it isn't getting worse.

Usually I find about 5-6 hairs on my hands in the shower and its now less than three. I wonder if it is progress or coincidence. Running my hands through my hair comes up with no hair but then again, I never did that before so I have no basis of comparison.

I said that it would take eight months but I can't help but feel a little impatient. It has only been 34 days so I have another 210 or so to go to see if this project is a bust or not. I remain optimistic, I just needed to vent a little.

I said that it would take eight months but I can't help but feel a little impatient. It has only been 34 days so I have another 210 or so to go to see if this project is a bust or not. I remain optimistic, I just needed to vent a little.

Normally it will take a good 3-4 months until you can verify that your protocol is indeed working for you. You are using these products:

I also have apple cider vinegar (couldn't find Bragg so I got Heinz instead) that I will take two slightly overflowing tablespoons twice daily. I will take 320 mg of Saw Palmetto a day (2 x twice daily), 2g of MSM, and 2 x Vitamin B complex.

Plus the laser comb, correct? It really does take a good 3-4 months of consistent treatment to start seeing an effect. Also keep in mind bro - you mentioned your hair loss is due to seborrheic dermatitis so a genetic predisposition to shed hair due to DHT is not your only problem.

LLLT should help in the long run according to what ive read about it (check out the PDF's in steve777's post), you just need to give it time.

For all our efforts, sometimes nothing works and you have to be prepared for that. Most of us with MPB will end up losing our hair eventually regardless of what we do to try and save it - Im just hoping that's 55 not 35

BV

azeleic acid is a dht inhibitor i believe (want to run test/deca, so i cant use finasteride)....any research done on this?

azeleic acid is a dht inhibitor i believe (want to run test/deca, so i cant use finasteride)....any research done on this?

If you do some research on AA, you'll find that there are only a few professional studies supporting its DHT inhibitive qualities - but a ton of anecdotal evidence:

Azelaic acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You may want to take more precaustions than just AA on cycle though. This 'Crinagen' product looks interesting as well, and is inexpensive:

http://www.hairsite.com/crinagen.htm

According to this study the combination of ingredients in it could work quite well:

Blackwell Synergy - Br J Dermatol, Volume 119 Issue 5 Page 627 - November 1988 (Article Abstract)

You should also look into Spironolactone and Ketoconozole. (Nizoral)

BV

Originally Posted by BigVrunga

If you do some research on AA, you'll find that there are only a few professional studies supporting its DHT inhibitive qualities - but a ton of anecdotal evidence:

Azelaic acid - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You may want to take more precaustions than just AA on cycle though. This 'Crinagen' product looks interesting as well, and is inexpensive:

http://www.hairsite.com/crinagen.htm

According to this study the combination of ingredients in it could work quite well:

Blackwell Synergy - Br J Dermatol, Volume 119 Issue 5 Page 627 - November 1988 (Article Abstract)

You should also look into Spironolactone and Ketoconozole. (Nizoral)

BV

you're a big help...reps...i use ketoconozole/nizoral daily and i've considered spiro but i dont like the idea of having to apply it twice a day every day and it making ur hair smell bad

Originally Posted by Tom 185

you're a big help...reps...i use ketoconozole/nizoral daily and i've considered spiro but i dont like the idea of having to apply it twice a day every day and it making ur hair smell bad

the spiro you get from online retailers generally is unusable...but if you brew your own (i made my current batch from a dilute solution of 5% cream i got from a website) it can be a piece of cake. just dont use alcohol to prepare it, as that will likely cause systemic action.

fluridil is another good option.

the spiro you get from online retailers generally is unusable...but if you brew your own (i made my current batch from a dilute solution of 5% cream i got from a website) it can be a piece of cake. just dont use alcohol to prepare it, as that will likely cause systemic action.

Same Old has the idea here - these are products you'll need to use continually so finding a bulk source and doing a little homebrewing is a great way to ensure acceptable costs and high quality.

BV

Originally Posted by same_old

the spiro you get from online retailers generally is unusable...but if you brew your own (i made my current batch from a dilute solution of 5% cream i got from a website) it can be a piece of cake. just dont use alcohol to prepare it, as that will likely cause systemic action.

fluridil is another good option.

how do i start homebrewing? need some help...

BigV,

Can you clear this up for me?

1. Receeding at either temple

2. Thinning in that area as well.

Would like the best root to stop DHT, regrow and thicken hair, what products would you recommend?

Can you clear this up for me?

1. Receeding at either temple

2. Thinning in that area as well.

Would like the best root to stop DHT, regrow and thicken hair, what products would you recommend?

How old are you bro? Is the thinning isloated to the temple region or is it spreading out to the top front of your head as well?

I think the first steps for anyone to take is to start using Nizoral Shampoo and LLLT EOD. This requires minimal initial investment and both are proven methods for fighting hairloss.

Im interested in that 'crinagen' product in the above posts but dont know anyone who has tried it yet. The combination of ingredients leads me to think it might be pretty effective as a topical DHT blocker, without the hazards of concerns of a potent anti-androgen like Spironolactone.

If after 3-6 months of using the above products you arent seeing any improvement, its time to move onto more permanent solutions like 5% minoxidil and finesteride. I would recommend you start using these as a final step because once they start regrowing hair, you'll have to keep using them permanently and that requires a financial commitment as well as a disciplined regimen that you simply have to adhere to for these products to work.

BV

how do i start homebrewing? need some help...

I dont think any of us have really tried yet...but my favorite solutions (the stuff from Dr Lee - Im not sure what's in Spectral DNC maybe CEDoudes can chime in here) use ethyl alcohol, propylene glycol, tocophenol (vitamin E), and a small amount of phosphoric acid as their base solution.

That stuff is relatively easy to source. Find some bulk minoxidil and azelaic acid, saw palmetto extract, etc and you're on your way...

BV

no grains, soy, dairy, sugar = no hair loss

Originally Posted by engival

no grains, soy, dairy, sugar = no hair loss

Are you saying if you dont eat those types of food you wont lose hair? If you are... that statement is horribly incorrect.

hair loss = Insulin Resistance / Insulin Resistance = High grain/sugar diet.


So there you go guys. For those of you who still have a significant amount of hair left, CUT DOWN the grains if you want to keep your hair. It is far more effective than Rogaine and much less costly. However, you must be warned of the side effects of a low grain diet - you will achieve far higher levels of health, and decrease your risk of diabetes, heart attacks, and cancer. If, and only if, you are willing to accept such side effects in exchange for keeping your hair.

1. 34yrs old

2. Not spreading out but back towards the back of my head ....it's not really bad but would like to do something about it before it gets worse.

3. What's LLLT?

Originally Posted by BigVrunga

How old are you bro? Is the thinning isloated to the temple region or is it spreading out to the top front of your head as well?

I think the first steps for anyone to take is to start using Nizoral Shampoo and LLLT EOD. This requires minimal initial investment and both are proven methods for fighting hairloss.

Im interested in that 'crinagen' product in the above posts but dont know anyone who has tried it yet. The combination of ingredients leads me to think it might be pretty effective as a topical DHT blocker, without the hazards of concerns of a potent anti-androgen like Spironolactone.

If after 3-6 months of using the above products you arent seeing any improvement, its time to move onto more permanent solutions like 5% minoxidil and finesteride. I would recommend you start using these as a final step because once they start regrowing hair, you'll have to keep using them permanently and that requires a financial commitment as well as a disciplined regimen that you simply have to adhere to for these products to work.

BV

Originally Posted by engival

hair loss = Insulin Resistance / Insulin Resistance = High grain/sugar diet.


So there you go guys. For those of you who still have a significant amount of hair left, CUT DOWN the grains if you want to keep your hair. It is far more effective than Rogaine and much less costly. However, you must be warned of the side effects of a low grain diet - you will achieve far higher levels of health, and decrease your risk of diabetes, heart attacks, and cancer. If, and only if, you are willing to accept such side effects in exchange for keeping your hair.

In my best Dr Evil voice... "Riiiiiiiiiiight."

hair loss = Insulin Resistance / Insulin Resistance = High grain/sugar diet.


So there you go guys. For those of you who still have a significant amount of hair left, CUT DOWN the grains if you want to keep your hair. It is far more effective than Rogaine and much less costly. However, you must be warned of the side effects of a low grain diet - you will achieve far higher levels of health, and decrease your risk of diabetes, heart attacks, and cancer. If, and only if, you are willing to accept such side effects in exchange for keeping your hair.

Do you have any accepted studies or at least anecdotal evidence to back this up?

"Another study from Johns Hopkins shows that men who lose their hair early usually have high blood levels of insulin like growth factor-1, a hormone that the body produces in response to high blood sugar levels. Women who have a condition called polycystic ovary syndrome suffer from male-pattern baldness, have high blood insulin levels and can often be cured by taking medication to lower blood sugar levels and restricting foods that raise blood sugar the most, such as those with added sugar, bakery products, pastas and fruit juices. Eat root vegetables and fruits with other foods, and eat plenty of vegetables, whole grains, beans, seeds and nuts."


Baldness Linked to Diet?

In my opinion hair loss can be stopped or slowed down tremendously through just following a diet of no grains / sugar.

Hair loss is a sign of imbalance in the body brought on by grains/sugar and other toxins (drugs and some supplements)

'Genetic' is a Lie

Yes hair loss is genetics, but they claim heart disease and some other disease are genetics as well. Your only prone to these if you follow the same life style has the parents.

While some of the ideas in those articles I totally agree with, engival, I dont think that insulin resistance is the sole cause of hair loss. Male pattern Baldness is also a trait exhibited in other primates. And considering it afflicts ~50% of the human male population regardless of diet - I really do think a genetic sensitivity to DHT is a primary culprit.

Issues with insulin may play a part, and most of will agree that staying away from sugars and eating only whole foods is ideal for optimum health but Androgenic Alopecia is most certainly a genetic condition that can not be controlled simply through diet.

In my opinion hair loss can be stopped or slowed down tremendously through just following a diet of no grains / sugar.

Hair loss is a sign of imbalance in the body brought on by grains/sugar and other toxins (drugs and some supplements)

Certainly some hair loss is due to nutritonal factors, poor health, etc - but Male Pattern Baldness has a much more complex array of factors involved than simply amount of carbs in your diet.

I've run VLC (very low carbohydrate) and keto-type diets for extended lengths of time, and saw no improvement in the condition of my hair. However, did see a big improvement when i started taking a small dose of finesteride, using LLLT (low level laser therapy), and using higher-strength minoxidil solutions.

I think the insulin theory has weight, and a good diet should be followed by anyone trying to surpress MPB symptoms because its essential for healthy hair, but it definitely isnt the only factor involved.

BV

Here's a pretty good article that discusses many factors of hair loss. Genetics, DHT, and insulin sensitivity are all discussed:

Baldness Defination : Male Pattern Baldness, Cause of Hair Loss, Hair Loss Prevention

From this article:

Mechanism of male pattern baldness



While the precise mechanism which underlies androgenic alopecia is unknown, a high level of dihydrotestosterone (DHT) is crucial in initiating the process. DHT is, ironically, a hair growth stimulator. Testosterone is synthesized from pregnalone which is formed from cholesterol. DHT is formed from Testosterone with the conversion from testosterone to DHT being mediated by 5-alpha reductase. There are two subtypes of 5-alpha reductase and drugs which block one type may not block the other.
While androgens (the general class of male hormones which includes testostrone and DHT) levels may be similar in men who have male pattern baldness and those who have hair, people with more 5-alpha reductase or a greater density of DHT receptors may be more vulnerable to the effects of DHT. Surprisingly, men with male pattern baldness have, on average, significantly lower levels of total testosterone, though they did not have significantly lower levels of unbound androgens in their blood.[3]
Spiking androgen levels, caused by intense weight training, sudden weight loss, taking anabolic steroids or other synthetic androgens and other causes can promote the balding process. The vast majority of anabolic steroids contribute to hairloss, since most anabolic compounds break down to form DHT at some point.





How DHT causes hair loss is hotly debated.



American research tends to focus on DHT, DHT receptor density in the scalp and 5-alpha reductase levels in the scalp as causes of baldness.


Japanese research may cover these topics but also is more likely to cover the increase in sebum (scalp oil) production caused by DHT in the scalp, and the increase of Pityrosporon ovale, a pathogenic yeast which has been linked to dandruff and eczema, and which feeds off of sebum. Issues related to diet are also more likely to be covered. Possibly this is because male pattern baldness has increased very sharply in Japan since the end of World War II along with an increase in fatty foods and average height, focusing public attention on various lifestyle differences.


Most pharmaceutical treatments which stop or slow the balding process work by limiting the creation of DHT. In ideal situations this may cause a person's hairline to revert to what it was a year ago (since follicles which were resting but healthy will be active again), though it is difficult to reverse more than a year of hair loss without surgery.


Since sex hormone binding globulin is reduced by high insulin levels, reducing insulin levels should also increase levels of sex hormone binding globulin. Higher SHBG binds to testosterone, preventing its conversion to DHT. Less free testosterone means that less testosterone will be converted into DHT, even if total testosterone levels are very high.


Statistically, men who are bald are more likely to be insulin resistant and more likely to suffer cardiovascular disease. There seems to be a correaltion between male pattern baldness and metabolic syndrome, though androgens are not shown to cause heart disease or metabolic syndrome\diabetes directly. High insulin levels seem the likely link between the two conditions.


Chronic infection with a diseases such as Chlamydia, exposure to pathogenic mold, and high levels of stress can exacerbate androgenic alopecia. How this happens isn't always clear. Some types of stress can cause decreases in plasma levels of sex hormone binding globulin, among other responses.





Evolutionary theories of male pattern baldness



Gorillas evolved anatomically enlarged foreheads to convey increased status and maturity.


There is no consensus regarding the details of the evolution of baldness. Most theories regard it as resulting from sexual selection. A number of other primate species also experience hair loss following puberty, and some primate species clearly use an enlarged forehead, created both anatomically and through strategies such as frontal balding, to convey increased status and maturity.


One theory, advanced by Muscarella and Cunningham, suggests baldness evolved in males through sexual selection as an enhanced signal of aging and social maturity, whereby aggression and risk-taking decrease and nurturing behaviours increase.(1) This may have conveyed a male with enhanced social status but reduced physical threat, which could enhance ability to secure reproductive partners and raise offspring to adulthood.


In a study by Muscarella and Cunnhingham, males and females viewed 6 male models with different levels of facial hair (beard and moustache or clean) and cranial hair (full head of hair, receding and bald). Participants rated each combination on 32 adjectives related to social perceptions. Males with facial hair and those with bald or receding hair were rated as being older than those who were clean-shaven or had a full head of hair. Beards and a full head of hair were seen as being more aggressive and less socially mature, and baldness was associated with more social maturity.

I think it plays a role - but it is by no means the only role that should be examined when combating MPB.

BV

Originally Posted by engival

no grains, soy, dairy, sugar = no hair loss

wowie wow wow.

makes Sense BV, its a good idea to have a good idea of course though

id rather eat well than take drugs to keep my hair...if i start losing my hair then oh well, my hair doesnt define me as a person anways.

id rather eat well than take drugs to keep my hair...if i start losing my hair then oh well, my hair doesnt define me as a person anways.

Eating well is key, but I dont think its the only thing that will save your hair if you're prone to MPB my friend. However, I wouldnt risk my health for vanity either. I'd be a pretty good looking bald guy - a concept Ive been slowly acclimating to over the years

i'm looking at 11-oxo/3AD for my next cycle as it seems to mild with hairloss. Even though it seems to be mild, i still want to take full precaution with my hair. I'll be using fin 1.25mg, minox 5%, and nizoral 2%. And hopefully plan to add the following:

Some questions I have are:

1) How is spiro anygood with such a short half-life(85min/1.4hrs) even if applied 2 times a day?

2) Has AA been proven to block DHT on the human scalp? AA in theory is a good DHT blocker, but the only knowledge was test tube trials.

-Alex

1) How is spiro anygood with such a short half-life(85min/1.4hrs) even if applied 2 times a day?

2) Has AA been proven to block DHT on the human scalp? AA in theory is a good DHT blocker, but the only knowledge was test tube trials.

Hi second2none -

With both AA and Spiro, there is more anecdotal then clinical evidence to prove their efficacy when it comes to blocking DHT.

I've only seen one quoted study referring to Azelaic acid blocking DHT at the dermal level. The following article should address your question:

http://www.baldingblog.com/2005/09/1...top-hair-loss/

From that article:

I reached out to my colleagues and Drs. Shaprio and Cooley responded with one of the better answers given to me. The focus of the quoted study was on in-vitro (in the laboratory) studies and there are no invivo (in patients) studies. The finding in the laboratory is interesting, but it is a big jump to answering it for people like you who seem to research things in great depth. I would warn most of my readers that there is a long stretch to findings in the laboratory and responses in patients. we have seen cancers killed in the laboratory and no impact on patients. Certainly safety issues are pre-eminent and drive much of what I recommend for my patients.

“I think Dr Lee is referring to this old in vitro data. I’m skeptical azelaic acid is a good in vivo topical 5AR inhibitor and even if it is”, as Dr. Shapiro said, “there’s still the systemic DHT that must be addressed. I doubt that azelaic acid does much for hair growth. ”

Read the citation summarized below from British Journal of Dermatology, 1988 Nov;119(5):627-32.

Inhibition of 5 alpha-reductase activity in human skin by zinc and azelaic acid, by Stamatiadis D, Bulteau-Portois MC, Mowszowicz I., Laboratoire de Biochimie B, Hopital Necker-Enfants-Malades, Paris, France.

The effects of zinc sulphate and azelaic acid on 5 alpha-reductase activity in human skin were studied using an in vitro assay with 1,2[3H]-testosterone as substrate. When added at concentrations of 3 or 9 mmol/l, zinc was a potent inhibitor of 5 alpha-reductase activity. At high concentrations, zinc could completely inhibit the enzyme activity. Azelaic acid was also a potent inhibitor of 5 alpha-reductase; inhibition was detectable at concentrations as low as 0.2 mmol/l and was complete at 3 mmol/l. An additive effect of the two inhibitors was observed. Vitamin B6 potentiated the inhibitory effect of zinc, but not of azelaic acid, suggesting that two different mechanisms are involved. When the three substances were added together at very low concentrations which had been shown to be ineffective alone, 90% inhibition of 5 alpha-reductase activity was obtained. If this inhibition is confirmed in vivo, zinc sulphate combined with azelaic acid could be an effective agent in the treatment of androgen related pathology of human skin.

As for the half life of Spironolactone, remeber that its quoted half life pertains to Sprio in vivo, not transdermally. I'd guess the half life would be longer as there would be some time-release action present, as its the nature of transdermal administration. I think it would also depend of factors like humidity, skin condition, etc.

Notice that the quote study for AA blocking DHT in the skin references its action in combination with zinc sulfate...makes me wonder how effective that Crinagen product may be I'm leaning toward giving it a try.

Also,you may want to look into Fluridil (Eucapil):
http://www.eucapil.com/xhtml_en/eucapil.shtml

From what Ive been reading it's half life is longer than Spironolactone and it's safer as well (it can't be absorbed systemically). Plus, it was specifically designed to combat androgen activity in the scalp.

Its quite expensive, but might be a viable option to use on-cycle.

Hope that helped,
BV

I've decided to go the all natural route for hair regrowth. I've been reading a hair regrowth forum and realized how much healthier and just about as effective the natural route compared to non like fina/duta/minox. I dont know if its been posted in this thread but Immortal Hair has a great natural regimen that seems to be working wonders for him. Heres a link Immortal Hair | Drop the poisons without losing your hair

for the past 2 months ive been using Revita regrowth shampoo morn followed by high quality conditioner & nightime followed by Hairgrowthessentials' Essential Oils for hair regrowth at night time. Along with antioxidants/msm/fish oil & plenty of water. Also L-Arginine 3g-6g which boosts NO levels, promotes circulation, and aides in the release of HGH.
Nitric Oxide relaxes the follicles which is important in hair follicle health.
Since ive started, Ive noticed my scalp has turned from being dry/shiney to looking very healthy & hydrated(no more shine) I havent noticed any regrowth yet but it usually takes longer that 2 months i hear 7-8 for real regrowth. Anyways the overall health of my scalp has greatly improved which will aide in regrowth. #1 priority for regrowth should be a healthy hydrated scalp. Sorta like plants need good soil for growing.

Will soon start the Immortal hair regimen along with a Scalp Roller.
Also found this very interesting thread you guys should take a look.
Regrowth.com > Discussion Forums

The Hairgrowthessential oils can be found here.
Hair Growth Essentials
Its a great product which I would advise anyone to add to their regrowth regimen.

I will update after following this regimen for a bit.

Goodluck.

Would like to add that I have mostly full head of hair, its just somewhat thinned from AAS use. Scalp is only somewhat visable, but since the balding shine has gone it seems nowhere near as visable.