Hair Loss Prevention

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  1. BigVrunga, I massaged the the topical spiro in with my fingertips a little, so it's possible that it got absorbed that way.


  2. Aldactone (spironolactone) is a specific pharmacologic antagonist of aldosterone, acting primarily through competitive binding of receptors at the aldosterone-dependent sodium-potassium exchange site in the distal convoluted renal tubule. Aldactone causes increased amounts of sodium and water to be excreted, while potassium is retained. Aldactone acts both as a diuretic and as an antihypertensive drug by this mechanism. It may be given alone or with other diuretic agents which act more proximally in the renal tubule.
    From Pub Med:
    Spirolactones are aldosterone antagonists which inhibit the binding of aldosterone to the renal mineralocorticoid receptor. These molecules also possess an antiandrogenic effect which could be due, among other possibilities, to a peripheral antagonism of androgens. This hypothesis has been tested in the present study. From in vivo experiments, spironolactone K+ canrenoate appear to inhibit the binding of [3H]5alpha-dihydrotestosterone [3H]DHT to the cytosolic and nuclear receptor of the rat ventral prostate. The doses used are in the same range as those used for demonstrating the antimineralocorticoid effect of these molecules. In vitro incubations and in vitro displacement studies show that spironolactone and K+ canrenoate are respectively about 20 and 100 times less effective than DHT in displacing 50 percent of 5 times 10- minus 10 M [3H]DHT from its receptor. Spirolactones are also able to compete with [3H]DHT for the specific 8 S cytosolic receptor. Neither spironolactone nor K+ canrenoate decreases prostatic 5alpha-reductase activity, even at a concentration as high as 10- minus 5 M. It seems likely that spirolactones, besides their action on testosterone biosynthesis, exert their antiandrogenic activity via a peripheral androgen antagonism.
    Accroding to the quotes above, found from brief internet research, Spironolactone is actually designed to block aldosterone, which would result in its diuretic effects and reduce hypertension. It's anti-androgen effects seem to be a result of its affinity for androgen receptors. The pubmed article mentions:

    "It seems likely that spirolactones, besides their action on testosterone biosynthesis, exert their antiandrogenic activity via a peripheral androgen antagonism."

    I couldnt find any info on Spiro's action on testosterone synthesis though, so Im not sure how it effects it.

    FlyByU - did you experience any other of the reported Spiro effects? Diuretic effects, low blood pressure, etc?

    BV
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    From Pub Med: FlyByU - did you experience any other of the reported Spiro effects? Diuretic effects, low blood pressure, etc?

    BV
    Read my post in reply Bawbag concerning the side effects I experienced.

  4. The light headedness could be a side effect of Spiro, and possibly the frequent urination from its effects as a diruetic. You planning on going back to the doc soon for another checkup?

    BV

  5. Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    The light headedness could be a side effect of Spiro, and possibly the frequent urination from its effects as a diruetic. You planning on going back to the doc soon for another checkup?

    BV
    The side effects have gone away now, so i'm pretty sure the drug is out of my system. I'll definitely be having another blood test and when I get the results, I'll be sure to let you all know the results.
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  6. Dave001
    Dave001's Avatar

    Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    It's an androgen receptor blocker - if there were too much Spiro in your system, testosterone (and other androgens, for that matter), would be less effective.
    But a pure antiandrogen would increase testosterone levels, both free and bound fractions. Spironolactone is a bit more complicated in that regard because it also interferes with testosterone biosythesis. I'm not sure what net effect spironolactone would have on testosterone over such a short duration, but the chronic changes in women who take the drug orally seem relatively small and inconsistent.


    Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    The molecular weight of Spironolactone base is ~417. so that *would* make it possible for it to be absorbed transdermally (<500). However - the skin on your scalp is thicker than any other location on your body, so this would make the bioavailability of any transdermal application there much less effective.
    Topical absorption of medications is generally greater through the scalp, face, and scrotum, than other sites of application. Also, hair follicles are a very efficient route of transport for many drugs.


    Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    After reading this new info - I would be really cautious about using it everyday - and if you choose to a blood test would probably be a good idea.
    The guy's story sounds very suspicious to me, especially the alleged response from Dr. Lee. Someone ought to e-mail Dr. Lee to ask whether he even wrote what was claimed. If he were to say that he didn't, then we'd know that the rest of the guy's story was BS.

    Rey, F. O., C. Valterio, et al. (1988). "Lack of endocrine systemic side effects after topical application of spironolactone in man." Journal of Endocrinological Investigation 11(4): 273-8.

    Abstract: In six healthy male volunteers, the percutaneous absorption of spironolactone was compared with placebo in a double-blind crossover study. The subjects were randomly given either a cream containing 5% spironolactone or placebo to be applied in a randomized sequential way to a well defined skin area equivalent to 55% of body area. [my emphasis] During the 72 h following the application of the ointment, blood levels of canrenone, the major metabolite of spironolactone, have been determined. In order to estimate the systemic antiandrogenic effect of spironolactone, plasma levels of 17-alpha-Hydroxy progesterone (17 alpha-OH-P), Testosterone (pT) and non-conjugated 3 alpha-Androstanediol (3 alpha-diol, metabolite of the active androgen 5 alpha-Dihydrotestosterone or DHT) as well as salivary Testosterone (sT) which relate to the free and active plasma testosterone fraction have also been measured. Urinary levels of canrenone have been determined 48 hours after cream application. No changes in any levels of these hormones have been detected and plasma canrenone levels were undetectable during the 72 hours of topical treatment. Topically administered, spironolactone appears to have only a local skin impregnation.

  7. Forget the studies, try it yourself and have a blood test before to establish your baseline hormone levels, then use the topical spiro for a few days and repeat the blood test. I'd be very interested to know if others have the same experience that I did. Dave001, I don't know why on earth you doubt what I've written. Go ahead and email Dr Lee. I can PM you my real name. Heck, if you doubt me that much I can even cut and paste both of Dr Lee's responses to my emails.
    Please go ahead Dave001 and try Dr Lee's topical 2% spironolactone solution and take the before and after blood test. Post your results here.

  8. Dave001, how could a pure antiandrogen "increase testosterone levels, both free and bound fractions"?

    So, what you're saying is if, for example, I swallowed a 250mg tablet of flutamide (a potent anti-androgen), my free and total testosterone levels would actually increase??

  9. "The guy's story sounds very suspicious to me, especially the alleged response from Dr. Lee. Someone ought to e-mail Dr. Lee to ask whether he even wrote what was claimed. If he were to say that he didn't, then we'd know that the rest of the guy's story was BS."


    You are the only person here who has doubted my story so far. The other people who have responded to my posts thanked me for the heads up! All I'm trying do is to warn people about this product because I don't think it is safe. I will know for sure, however, when I repeat my experiment. I will post results when they're in.

  10. Dave001, how could a pure antiandrogen "increase testosterone levels, both free and bound fractions"?

    So, what you're saying is if, for example, I swallowed a 250mg tablet of flutamide (a potent anti-androgen), my free and total testosterone levels would actually increase??
    I think what he meant was - if you are under the influence of a pure androgen receptor blocker, your body will try to produce *more* testosterone because there is a signal going to your HPTA that says you aren't getting enough. I keep reading that Spiro interferes with 'testosterone bio-synthesis', which would mean it affects testosterone production in some way. If Spiro were in fact the cause of your low test levels, this would be the case.

    Topical absorption of medications is generally greater through the scalp, face, and scrotum, than other sites of application. Also, hair follicles are a very efficient route of transport for many drugs.
    I may have been mistaken when I assumed that the thick skin of the scalp would inhibit transdermal aborption. However, Im pretty sure that having a lot hair on your head would actually cause a problem for transdermal drug administration. The more a compound gets in your hair, the less is available to go through the skin.
    Do you think the sebacious glands in the skin of the scalp would cause a problem for transdermal absorption? Unless the drug were oleaginous - I think Spiro may be.

    I'm not sure what net effect spironolactone would have on testosterone over such a short duration, but the chronic changes in women who take the drug orally seem relatively small and inconsistent.
    Right - but that's in women, where 70% of their testosterone production is produced by the adrenal glands. (The other 30% being produced by the ovaries) Have there been any studies on oral spironolactone use in men and what biological pathway it would affect in terms of testosterone production? I couldnt find any...perhaps it affects synthesis in the testes the same as it would in the adrenal glands, I dont know for sure.

    The guy's story sounds very suspicious to me, especially the alleged response from Dr. Lee. Someone ought to e-mail Dr. Lee to ask whether he even wrote what was claimed. If he were to say that he didn't, then we'd know that the rest of the guy's story was BS.
    Why would FlyByU come into this thread and just make up a story about Spiro affecting his testosterone levels? I think he has a legitimate concern. The study you posted is interesting, but:

    Abstract: In six healthy male volunteers, the percutaneous absorption of spironolactone was compared with placebo in a double-blind crossover study. The subjects were randomly given either a cream containing 5% spironolactone or placebo to be applied in a randomized sequential way to a well defined skin area equivalent to 55% of body area.
    SIX people does not even come close to accurately representing the entire male population, so its not fair to assume that *everyone* who uses topical spiro would not see negative sides. True, most studies have shown that it is 'generally well tolerated' - but who knows how the relatively new treatment for AGA affected FlyByU as an individual.

    With a molecular weight of ~400,Spiro *could* get into the bloodstream through the skin. I dont think it would be safe to say that nobody would be affected by this. The percentage may be small, but still *some* people could experience genuinely unpleasant side effects.

    BV

  11. Bv,

    do you know if Azelaic acid interfers with tesostrone levels? I dont think it does but i just want your opinion.

    also AA is getting into a more serious dht blocker. Ive been using nizoral 1 %.

    would it have any effects if i started AA then stopped it?

  12. Hey smeton,

    I dont think AA would interfere with test levels. Read this:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azelaic_acid

    Some pretty good info there - although they mention using AA in a combination of 20% (!!) for treating hair loss. I think that would burn like a mother!

    You probably would see some effects if you stopped using AA, in the way that you would if you stopped using any DHT blocker. Once you stop blocking the chemical that's causing the problem, you'll resume your natural course of MPB.

    I have to stress though bro, if you are losing your hair because of your genetics, you'll have to battle it your whole life, or until they find a suitable cure. Pretty much *all* treatments for MPB will result in the loss of the hair they maintained/helped to regrow if you discontinue use.

    BV

  13. anyone know where to get 5% AA? CNW no longer carries it on their website.



  14. Bro, in addition to the 500 other posts is thread that list suppliers (especially the first one!) - check out the following sites:

    www.minoxidil.com
    www.wholesalehairproducts.com

    I'm sure there are others but the above two are used by members of this board and are proven to have quality products.

    BV

  15. BV, do you think there could be any chance at all that Nizoral 2% shampoo could interfere with test levels if left sitting on the scalp for 5mins before washing it off?

  16. I suppose there could be a very remote chance of this happening, as Ketoconazole administered orally would lower testosterone levels. However, when you use Nizoral for hair loss purposes, you apply it 1-2 times a week, and its at a 2% concentration.

    Highly, highly doubtful that this would harm test levels...

    BV

  17. Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga


    Bro, in addition to the 500 other posts is thread that list suppliers (especially the first one!) - check out the following sites:

    www.minoxidil.com
    www.wholesalehairproducts.com

    I'm sure there are others but the above two are used by members of this board and are proven to have quality products.

    BV
    Thanks BV. I was aware of these but I domn't think they sell the straigh AA (they contain minoxidil too). CNW sold the straight 5% AA which is what I am interested in finding. I'll research through the posts in this thread some more.

  18. Oh sorry bro - I didnt realize what you were asking there

    Check out this site:
    http://www.advinfoprod.com/hair_loss_treatment_34.htm

    Do that, and you wont have to buy it again for a couple years

    BV

  19. Thanks for the link BV - I'll check it out!!

  20. Does anyone know where I can get the ketoconazole powder, seeing that CNW is down?

  21. Correction on that...the site is now back up, but the hair care products appear to be gone! Anyone...?

  22. Try emailing custom - maybe he's just out of stock?

  23. Bv how do you think the hair comb is working?


    btw something new i introduced the hauir comb to this thread and im bout to introduce somethign new www.nioxin.com

  24. Bv or to whom it may concern,

    has anyone tryed Polysorbate 80 Shampoo?

    if so how did you think it worked?

  25. Bv how do you think the hair comb is working?


    btw something new i introduced the hauir comb to this thread and im bout to introduce somethign new www.nioxin.com
    Haven't built it yet!! Been so busy lately - Its nearly done though, Ill put pics up as soon as I can.

    Nioxin is supposed to work pretty well, but its more of a 'scalp/hair health' treatment then a product that actually stimulates growth. I believe others have mentioned it in this thread before, and said it made their hair look great. Its cost is prohibitive, however.

  26. Bv or anyone ,have you tryed the Azelaic acid/ Minoxid combo in one bottle at

    wholesalehairproducts.com?\

    ive heard minoxidil or aa or some hair products make the hair fall out when a person starts using them,is this true?

    I only plan to use this for my superdrol cycle up coming in november; however, if i cycle off the AA/Minoxidil combo, after im done my drol cyccle and done pct, is there any side effects like shedding or would my hair fall out?

  27. Smeton,

    As stated in the posts above, you can't just use minoxidil as a temporary solution...it can make you shed for the first few weeks, and if you discontinue use, you will lose the hair it helped to regrow.

    If you want to *prevent* hair loss on a cycle, I would recommend Spiro/Azelaic Acid (only), and Nizoral 3x per week. No minoxdil, unless you plan to continue using it indefinitely.

    BV
  28. Laser Brush Completed!!!


    Here you go guys, Ill post up the How To tomorrow...

    6 laser brush built for less than $50!
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  29. Washing (shampooing drys out your hair) your hair once every 2-3 days, it keeps its natural oils...even using a shower cap. This method is very cheap.

  30. Do any of the compounds from the first post have an effect on body hair?(not including hair on head) i.e. loss of, or extra growth.
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