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Finally found the balls to do it!

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    Finally found the balls to do it!


    On sunday i will be starting my first test cycle. It will be prop at 100mg EOD or 50ED if i can handle pinning that often.

    Do u guys have any suggestions in terms of stacking other compounds with it? Its gonna be an 8 week cycle so long esters are out of the question.

    PCT =
    Nolva - 20/20/10/10
    Clomid - 50/50/50/50
    Erase Pro at recommended dose

    I have everything i need on hand including Adex, Letro, and the serms as well as all the support supps!

    Is there anything i should watch out for? im a little nervous and very excited as sunday seems to be coming very soon!!

    Thanks in advance guys!!

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    Up your dose 100mg/wk
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    invest in a back scrubber to keep the zits away
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    even for my first run? Other members have pointed me in this direction. Any reason for going up?
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    Quote Originally Posted by figdaddy
    On sunday i will be starting my first test cycle. It will be prop at 100mg EOD or 50ED if i can handle pinning that often.

    Do u guys have any suggestions in terms of stacking other compounds with it? Its gonna be an 8 week cycle so long esters are out of the question.

    PCT =
    Nolva - 20/20/10/10
    Clomid - 50/50/50/50
    Erase Pro at recommended dose

    I have everything i need on hand including Adex, Letro, and the serms as well as all the support supps!

    Is there anything i should watch out for? im a little nervous and very excited as sunday seems to be coming very soon!!

    Thanks in advance guys!!
    you should only use one serm. 8 weeks of prop will be enough, you can kick start it with an oral depending on your goals. you should watch out for all the typical side effects of test lol. do not worry though you will most likely recover fully by the end of PCT.

    compound specifically to stack with it would be stano.
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    Quote Originally Posted by figdaddy View Post
    even for my first run? Other members have pointed me in this direction. Any reason for going up?
    500 is a good barometer, it's good you're not anxious to overdo it but IMO 500 is the sweet spot, especially for beginners, great gains will come. I just dont see the point in dosing any lower unless you were stacking.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DelaRone
    Up your dose 100mg/wk
    100mg a week? u mean a day?

    you should see substantial results off 100 EOD if not you can up it to 150 which will be plenty
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austinmck17 View Post
    you should only use one serm. 8 weeks of prop will be enough, you can kick start it with an oral depending on your goals. you should watch out for all the typical side effects of test lol. do not worry though you will most likely recover fully by the end of PCT.

    compound specifically to stack with it would be stano.
    Why should he only use one serm?
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    Quote Originally Posted by figdaddy View Post
    On sunday i will be starting my first test cycle. It will be prop at 100mg EOD or 50ED if i can handle pinning that often.

    Do u guys have any suggestions in terms of stacking other compounds with it? Its gonna be an 8 week cycle so long esters are out of the question.

    PCT =
    Nolva - 20/20/10/10
    Clomid - 50/50/50/50
    Erase Pro at recommended dose

    I have everything i need on hand including Adex, Letro, and the serms as well as all the support supps!

    Is there anything i should watch out for? im a little nervous and very excited as sunday seems to be coming very soon!!

    Thanks in advance guys!!
    i personally like your pct layout. Only suggestion may be first week of pct up the clomid to 100mg for a week or 3-5 days. a lot of guys run low dose nolva along side clomid!
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    Start at 50 to gauge sides and go up from there. 150 is....AMAZING!
    Nutraplanet Representative
    PM me with any order questions and concerns
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigShadow

    Why should he only use one serm?
    why should he use both...?
    you don't need two serms to recover, one is all that is necessary. using both just gives more side effects
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austinmck17 View Post
    100mg a week? u mean a day?

    you should see substantial results off 100 EOD if not you can up it to 150 which will be plenty

    I basically meant he should take 500mg/wk. But i was too lazy to type it out. IMO 100mg/day is overkill for his first run
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    400mg prop would be similar to 500mg cyp because of the ester...
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    Go with 100 or 125mg every other. Youre not gonna want to pin prop everyday you will be sore as fuk. I'd like to see you run it longer than 8 weeks but that's up to you.

    About the zits, every1 is diff and I haven't got any acne from using test. Just a little more oily skin and lots of sweating in the gym.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cashinova87 View Post
    Go with 100 or 125mg every other. Youre not gonna want to pin prop everyday you will be sore as fuk. I'd like to see you run it longer than 8 weeks but that's up to you.

    About the zits, every1 is diff and I haven't got any acne from using test. Just a little more oily skin and lots of sweating in the gym.
    ]

    Were you an acne prone teenager? It is hard to tell with acne, I believe if you had acne more than others growing up, any oil based steroid will make you flare up. With proper care, and I mean ALOT of care, you may can control it. But hey, its almost winter time now, by summer they will be clear with proper care .

    Personally, when I as 23 I tried Steroids for the first time, not knowing much except I wanted to be big as my friend who done steroids, who wasn't up-to-date with anything, just knowing how to stick a needle in his ass and getting big, my back and face got wrecked again with acne like I was 16 again. I was taking SUS250, maybe to much, and NO care at all. I haven't touched any steroid since due to the sheer scare factor of being broke out again. I am always gazing over water bases and even some oils but prepare to buy tons of acne items, scrubbers, etc., before I even think about hitting Proceed to checkout.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austinmck17

    why should he use both...?
    you don't need two serms to recover, one is all that is necessary. using both just gives more side effects
    Any truth to this? I have read very conflicting thoughts on ph/aas pct in terms of a serm. I know a guy who is a veteran bodybuilder that ill be getting my gear from in the next 2 weeks he recommends both compounds then others say just 1 please some more informative person chime in on this along with why
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    Quote Originally Posted by live to lift

    Any truth to this? I have read very conflicting thoughts on ph/aas pct in terms of a serm. I know a guy who is a veteran bodybuilder that ill be getting my gear from in the next 2 weeks he recommends both compounds then others say just 1 please some more informative person chime in on this along with why
    Tons of truth to this just use a google search or read the pct sticky. if not satisfied I will spend time to post, but think about it like this: they are used to do the same thing for PCT, why would you need two ? They are acting as estrogen which tricks the body to produce more test/LH(which produces test). this is not a scientific standpoint but what I can come up with off the head. I can elaborate more.,.
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    as well as can i. Nolva has the ability to target glands in breast tissue where as clomid cannot do so directly....Clomid increases libido where as nolva can often hinder it. Both together seems to keep gyno and libido covered pretty well. I can expand if bros would like me to? I am open to all opinions and suggestions thats why im here thanks again for the advice and feel free to keep it coming!! My first pin will either be tn or tm in the morning cant decide!!
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    oh and i thought id mention that i wouldnt be injecting if there wasnt a short ester test! i cannot be on for too long as my work and school schedule might conflict....im trying to time it so that i wont be in PCT for my finals or important meetings. I wanna either be alpha male for those or sober as an ox! My priorities have been the only thing holding me back from this for years!! To be completely honest i wanted to try it for the first time when i was 14!! im in my mid 20s and still havent touched it (pat myself on the back for that one!) lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by Austinmck17

    Tons of truth to this just use a google search or read the pct sticky. if not satisfied I will spend time to post, but think about it like this: they are used to do the same thing for PCT, why would you need two ? They are acting as estrogen which tricks the body to produce more test/LH(which produces test). this is not a scientific standpoint but what I can come up with off the head. I can elaborate more.,.
    Not to bust your chops further but this negates what you say. I got this from a veteran on another board.

    Below are some facts regarding Tamoxifen , Clomid , Toremifene and Rolaxifene:


    - Tamoxifen is NOT weak at restoring the HPTA, post cycle . Its as effective, perhaps more, than Clomid.

    - Tamoxifen alone will restore HPTA function in around 6 weeks (sometimes less) at 20mg/ED. Thats what the data states. I'm not sure AAS user's should be using 40mg/ED of Tamoxifen. Thats a large dose for males IMHO. A smaller dose of 20mg/ED should be used for more lengthy peroids, rather than larger doses for shorter durations. There is also no evidence that states 40mg/ED is BETTER than 20mg/ED for HPTA restoration.

    - Clomid is made up of 2 isomers:

    Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist. This is due o the fact that clomiphene is composed of two isomers: enclomiphene (trans-clomiphene) and zuclomiphene (cis-clomiphene). Enclomiphene is an estradiol receptor antagonist. Zuclomiphene is an estradiol receptor agonist. In all likelihood, the net antagonist effect might be due to the composition being 70% trans (enclomiphene) and 30% cis (zuclomiphene). Tamoxifen is more of a strict antiestrogen, decreases the effect of estrogen in the body, and potentiates the action of clomiphene. This combination came about after 100s of clinical experience. - Michael Scally MD

    So Tamoxifen is more of an antagonist, than Clomid is. Its better at blocking the ER than Clomid is. Clomid also seems to exert agonistic effects in parts of the brain that control emotion. That would explain why some turn into women on peroids during there experiences with Clomid.

    Tamoxifen is also made of slightly more isomers, the cis isomer of tamoxifen (inactive one) trans-tamoxifen and trans-4-OHT isomer.


    Few facts...

    - Clomid will double LH at 100mg/ED in 5-7 days and increase FSH by 20-50%. LH rises quickly post cycle, but not that quick.

    - Clomid will raise enodgenous testosterone (total) by 146% after 3 months at 25mg/ED. As shown in this study.

    - Clomid at 100mg/ED will raise endogenous testosterone (total) by 268% after 8 weeks and free testosterone by 1,410% (Thats not a typo). As shown in this study.

    - When Clomid and Tamoxifen where compared in this study. Tamoxifen increased serum testosterone to 142% of baseline in only 10 days. It took 150mg/ED of Clomid to get the same 142% increase. After 6 weeks it raised testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of starting values.

    Another thing to note after the above study is how sensitive the pituitary become to GnRH. The more sensitive the pituitary is to GnRH, the more LH it will produce. Tamoxifen increase pituitary sensitivity to GnRH and Clomid seemed to decrease it.

    - Estrogen will decrease sensitivity to GnRH. It will not increase it. If estrogen were to increase the pituitary to GnRH it calleds "estrogen priming". Priming the pituitary to become more sensitive to GnRH. This happens in females, but not males. There is no evidence to suggest there is E priming in males.

    - Tamoxifen is more an an antiestrogen than Clomid is. Both are SERM's and selective with agonistic/antagonistic effects in "selective" tissues. Both will block the ER in breast tissue. Both are agonists in the liver, which would explain the increase in IGF binding proteins and decrease in plasma IGF.


    So what about Toremifene and Rolaxifene...

    In a recent study done on Tamox, Tore and Rolax comparing HPTA restoration. Tamoxifen can out on top. In 8 weeks, 20mg/ED of Tamoxifen increased LH from 4.54 to 7.73 and Test from 496.59 to 835.06. After two months, 60mg/day of Toremifene increased LH from 4.05 to 5.05 and Test from 496.59 to 709.79.

    The Tore dose is low IMHO though. I've used far more. 120mg/ED for 7-14 days. Followed by 100mg/ED, then down to 60mg/ED over 3-4 weeks.

    - Tore will increase pituitary sensitivity to GnRH, as Tamoxifen did. As discussed above.

    - Rolax is fairly weak at restoring the HPTA. Its best used for treating gyno (Evista) and has the highest affinity for breast tissue out of the current SERMs. So it has its uses.

    There is limited clinical data on both Tore and Rolax, but Tore improves lipid values more potently than most other SERMs and increases bone mineral density very well.

    So what are your thoughts Swifto?

    I dont think it matters what SERM(s) you choose for PCT . But go with either Clomid, Tore or Tamox. Using 2 would be a better choice IMHO. The data states Tamoxifen is better than Clomid in a head to head comparison. The data also states Tamoxifen is better than Toremifene and Rolaxifene in head to head comparisons...But take the doses into account.

    The backbone of my PCT is Tore + Tamox 20mg/ED or Clomid 25mg/ED.

    For gyno Rolax should be your first choice. Then Tamox and Tore. Clomid isnt the mose effective at fighting gyno.

    All SERMs such as Tamoxifen seem to lower plasma IGF and increase IGF binding proteins, imporve lipids and bone mineral density too.

    2nd Gen SERMs (Tore, Rolax) are safer than 1st Gen (Clomid, Tamox).

    I hope this has shed more of a light in SERMs, their actions and uses.

    Decide for youself which you use for what...
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReedSkin
    ]

    Were you an acne prone teenager? It is hard to tell with acne, I believe if you had acne more than others growing up, any oil based steroid will make you flare up. With proper care, and I mean ALOT of care, you may can control it. But hey, its almost winter time now, by summer they will be clear with proper care .

    Personally, when I as 23 I tried Steroids for the first time, not knowing much except I wanted to be big as my friend who done steroids, who wasn't up-to-date with anything, just knowing how to stick a needle in his ass and getting big, my back and face got wrecked again with acne like I was 16 again. I was taking SUS250, maybe to much, and NO care at all. I haven't touched any steroid since due to the sheer scare factor of being broke out again. I am always gazing over water bases and even some oils but prepare to buy tons of acne items, scrubbers, etc., before I even think about hitting Proceed to checkout.
    You can use doxycycline to control acne if it gets too bad. It's prescription only tho so you have to wait until you break out and can't be pro active about it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukef2000

    You can use doxycycline to control acne if it gets too bad. It's prescription only tho so you have to wait until you break out and can't be pro active about it.
    Yes, doxycycline or accutane, both work great.

    And get some neutrogena acne wash, again works great.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigShadow

    Not to bust your chops further but this negates what you say. I got this from a veteran on another board.

    Below are some facts regarding Tamoxifen , Clomid , Toremifene and Rolaxifene:

    - Tamoxifen is NOT weak at restoring the HPTA, post cycle . Its as effective, perhaps more, than Clomid.

    - Tamoxifen alone will restore HPTA function in around 6 weeks (sometimes less) at 20mg/ED. Thats what the data states. I'm not sure AAS user's should be using 40mg/ED of Tamoxifen. Thats a large dose for males IMHO. A smaller dose of 20mg/ED should be used for more lengthy peroids, rather than larger doses for shorter durations. There is also no evidence that states 40mg/ED is BETTER than 20mg/ED for HPTA restoration.

    - Clomid is made up of 2 isomers:

    Clomiphene is a mixed agonist/antagonist. This is due o the fact that clomiphene is composed of two isomers: enclomiphene (trans-clomiphene) and zuclomiphene (cis-clomiphene). Enclomiphene is an estradiol receptor antagonist. Zuclomiphene is an estradiol receptor agonist. In all likelihood, the net antagonist effect might be due to the composition being 70% trans (enclomiphene) and 30% cis (zuclomiphene). Tamoxifen is more of a strict antiestrogen, decreases the effect of estrogen in the body, and potentiates the action of clomiphene. This combination came about after 100s of clinical experience. - Michael Scally MD

    So Tamoxifen is more of an antagonist, than Clomid is. Its better at blocking the ER than Clomid is. Clomid also seems to exert agonistic effects in parts of the brain that control emotion. That would explain why some turn into women on peroids during there experiences with Clomid.

    Tamoxifen is also made of slightly more isomers, the cis isomer of tamoxifen (inactive one) trans-tamoxifen and trans-4-OHT isomer.

    Few facts...

    - Clomid will double LH at 100mg/ED in 5-7 days and increase FSH by 20-50%. LH rises quickly post cycle, but not that quick.

    - Clomid will raise enodgenous testosterone (total) by 146% after 3 months at 25mg/ED. As shown in this study.

    - Clomid at 100mg/ED will raise endogenous testosterone (total) by 268% after 8 weeks and free testosterone by 1,410% (Thats not a typo). As shown in this study.

    - When Clomid and Tamoxifen where compared in this study. Tamoxifen increased serum testosterone to 142% of baseline in only 10 days. It took 150mg/ED of Clomid to get the same 142% increase. After 6 weeks it raised testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of starting values.

    Another thing to note after the above study is how sensitive the pituitary become to GnRH. The more sensitive the pituitary is to GnRH, the more LH it will produce. Tamoxifen increase pituitary sensitivity to GnRH and Clomid seemed to decrease it.

    - Estrogen will decrease sensitivity to GnRH. It will not increase it. If estrogen were to increase the pituitary to GnRH it calleds "estrogen priming". Priming the pituitary to become more sensitive to GnRH. This happens in females, but not males. There is no evidence to suggest there is E priming in males.

    - Tamoxifen is more an an antiestrogen than Clomid is. Both are SERM's and selective with agonistic/antagonistic effects in "selective" tissues. Both will block the ER in breast tissue. Both are agonists in the liver, which would explain the increase in IGF binding proteins and decrease in plasma IGF.

    So what about Toremifene and Rolaxifene...

    In a recent study done on Tamox, Tore and Rolax comparing HPTA restoration. Tamoxifen can out on top. In 8 weeks, 20mg/ED of Tamoxifen increased LH from 4.54 to 7.73 and Test from 496.59 to 835.06. After two months, 60mg/day of Toremifene increased LH from 4.05 to 5.05 and Test from 496.59 to 709.79.

    The Tore dose is low IMHO though. I've used far more. 120mg/ED for 7-14 days. Followed by 100mg/ED, then down to 60mg/ED over 3-4 weeks.

    - Tore will increase pituitary sensitivity to GnRH, as Tamoxifen did. As discussed above.

    - Rolax is fairly weak at restoring the HPTA. Its best used for treating gyno (Evista) and has the highest affinity for breast tissue out of the current SERMs. So it has its uses.

    There is limited clinical data on both Tore and Rolax, but Tore improves lipid values more potently than most other SERMs and increases bone mineral density very well.

    So what are your thoughts Swifto?

    I dont think it matters what SERM(s) you choose for PCT . But go with either Clomid, Tore or Tamox. Using 2 would be a better choice IMHO. The data states Tamoxifen is better than Clomid in a head to head comparison. The data also states Tamoxifen is better than Toremifene and Rolaxifene in head to head comparisons...But take the doses into account.

    The backbone of my PCT is Tore + Tamox 20mg/ED or Clomid 25mg/ED.

    For gyno Rolax should be your first choice. Then Tamox and Tore. Clomid isnt the mose effective at fighting gyno.

    All SERMs such as Tamoxifen seem to lower plasma IGF and increase IGF binding proteins, imporve lipids and bone mineral density too.

    2nd Gen SERMs (Tore, Rolax) are safer than 1st Gen (Clomid, Tamox).

    I hope this has shed more of a light in SERMs, their actions and uses.

    Decide for youself which you use for what...
    This is some good info right there! Thanks for posting
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