Beginner looking to do first PH Cycle; here's the plan....

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    Beginner looking to do first PH Cycle; here's the plan....


    Sup guys, I've never used PH's before and I do NOT want to hurt myself. I was a youngster and couldn't use them back in the day when they were all the rage; I remember Old T-Bomb and Andro and some other stuff that was out when I was new to the supplement game. Anyways, I'm 25 now and was lifting consistently up until about 2 months or so ago when I messed up both of my hamstrings. SO....I haven't been in the gym as much, needless to say.

    I want to continue to drop body fat (I'm using fish oil, CLA, Zycor by Bioquest, as well as Compound 20 by USP Labs) As well as add some decent muscle. I use whey protein, Occasionally Casein, and a multi vitamin; I plan on working creatine back into the routine as well as beta alenine with my pre/and post workout supplementation which I haven't decided on yet.

    Anyways, I've just given you my foundation; it's solid and works, but I'd like some faster results, bottom line.

    So far my plan is to use Phenylvar (an epistane stack) with CEL Cycle support, and for PCT I plan on running either Erase Pro and CEL Cycle Support (just to keep up the cleansing; PCT's can be toxic too) OR using CEL PCT Assist. I also want to run a joint formula by MHP called Relieve, just in case I'm someone who would be prone to joint issues while using this stuff. Phenylvar supposedly has a low estrogen conversion rate, and isn't all that toxic, but This being my first rodeo, I don't wanna take any chances.


    I'm trying to keep things mild, I don't want to try Superdrol or Dianavar or anything else Super Ultra Supreme beast mode lol, this is a first try and I have no clue how these things'll affect me, especially as I try to supplement with my base stack as well. I won't lie, I'm actually really reluctant about all of this. I do want to see VERY serious results, but man, manipulating hormones is nothin' ya wanna screw with if ya don't know what the HECK you're doin, and I won't lie, I'm not completely clueless, but I don't know what is enough and not enough cycle and PCT support. I'm a college student with no career still, so I'm not loaded with dollars and I don't want to spend a crap ton of money, ya know?

    Anyways, could you guys please point me in the right direction?

    So sorry to be so ignorant, but you've gotta start somewhere....

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    Epistane is fine for a first run at it.
    Your pct needs help though. You cannot run an OTC pct after a ph cycle you need a serm (nolvadex or clomid) from a research chemical site in order to make a full recovery. Do some look into serms to get an idea about them
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    Supposedly an extract in Erase PRO is supposed to act as a SERM; it's called Boerhaavia diffusa extract.

    Regardless, I will most certainly look into them, thank you!
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    Erase Pro is not a SERM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonstophero
    Supposedly an extract in Erase PRO is supposed to act as a SERM; it's called Boerhaavia diffusa extract.

    Regardless, I will most certainly look into them, thank you!
    No problem. But no erase pro can be run as an AI but is not really qualified as a serm. You need pharm quality or you could have a painful damaging recovery during pct.
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    Certanly youll recover without a Serm but why risk it? epi is one of the few compounds that can be run without using a SERM for PCT but again this will hurt your gains and if you dont recover quickly youll be in trouble. Id usw clomid atleast at 25 true mgs . Ideal standard is 50 mgs. Oh and if you dont use a SERM get a Good OTC TRS by primordial performance is your best bet
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    Okay, so I take it that a TRS is a Testosterone Recovery stack...That junk aint cheap, but anything for my body to recover properly lol. I'm not going to ask, but I have no idea about how to go about getting a TRUE SERM....That's about the only "hole" in the plan I can see for the time being.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nonstophero
    Okay, so I take it that a TRS is a Testosterone Recovery stack...That junk aint cheap, but anything for my body to recover properly lol. I'm not going to ask, but I have no idea about how to go about getting a TRUE SERM....That's about the only "hole" in the plan I can see for the time being.
    Google research chemical sites and take your pick of what looks legit. Look for nolva or clomid and purchase it.
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    God... some of the advice here is horrible..

    you will need a serm man, you dont want estro rebound after. Just because this compoud isnt as harsh as others, does NOT mean you dont need serm. Only an uneducated idiot will tell you otherwise. When dealing with hormonal products, do your research and do it right, or else dont do it at all.

    You have no business cycling without a proper pct, every ph cycle needs a right pct. Stop cutting corners and do it right OP.

    If using clomid
    25/12.5/12.5/12.5

    nolv
    30/30/20/20

    Add in a test booster too. DAA preferably
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superman_777
    God... some of the advice here is horrible..

    you will need a serm man, you dont want estro rebound after. Just because this compoud isnt as harsh as others, does NOT mean you dont need serm. Only an uneducated idiot will tell you otherwise. When dealing with hormonal products, do your research and do it right, or else dont do it at all.

    You have no business cycling without a proper pct, every ph cycle needs a right pct. Stop cutting corners and do it right OP.

    If using clomid
    25/12.5/12.5/12.5

    nolv
    30/30/20/20

    Add in a test booster too. DAA preferably
    100% agree! Your already fukin with your hormones by running a cycle, I don't understand why people get afraid of using a SERM!
    I guess if you had a bad experience but there are options now, nolva, clomid, torem...
    USE SERMS
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    Nolva dosage higher then clomid dosage.........

    Incorrect to say the least. Clomid 100/50/50/25 or 50/50/50/50 the dosage you just described is lower then its usage as a anti-sterility drug which is 25mg daily for 3 months. I assume you have never used clomid if those are the doses you are recommending.

    Quote Originally Posted by Superman_777 View Post
    God... some of the advice here is horrible..

    you will need a serm man, you dont want estro rebound after. Just because this compoud isnt as harsh as others, does NOT mean you dont need serm. Only an uneducated idiot will tell you otherwise. When dealing with hormonal products, do your research and do it right, or else dont do it at all.

    You have no business cycling without a proper pct, every ph cycle needs a right pct. Stop cutting corners and do it right OP.

    If using clomid
    25/12.5/12.5/12.5

    nolv
    30/30/20/20

    Add in a test booster too. DAA preferably
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/223429-abscent-minded-log.html
    Quote Originally Posted by csa2179 View Post
    Pin the kittens with the tren, then attack the judges with the kittens, uppity bastards
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superman_777 View Post
    God... some of the advice here is horrible..

    you will need a serm man, you dont want estro rebound after. Just because this compoud isnt as harsh as others, does NOT mean you dont need serm. Only an uneducated idiot will tell you otherwise. When dealing with hormonal products, do your research and do it right, or else dont do it at all.

    You have no business cycling without a proper pct, every ph cycle needs a right pct. Stop cutting corners and do it right OP.

    If using clomid
    25/12.5/12.5/12.5

    nolv
    30/30/20/20

    Add in a test booster too. DAA preferably
    HAHAHAHAHAHA and my advice is horrible?... inform yourself man.... 30 mgs of nolva? seriously... and 12.5 of clomid???? some advice on here is STUPID ... also please read a bit more, you are just giving advice on using a SERM as if it were vitamins... we are not talking about superdrol, anadrol, dbol or tren to say that it will suppress him to 0... we are talking about fkn epistane.... and i didnt say he shouldnt run a SERM i said, it wasnt the end of the world, and that it would be better to use it, but if not, then TRS would be a great choice... next time you call my advices horrible, give some good advices with a good back up, because for your advice, you are no match for me, you just spit info and you only repeat what you read on fkn boards.... not everyone is right, READ !
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superman_777 View Post
    God... some of the advice here is horrible..

    you will need a serm man, you dont want estro rebound after. Just because this compoud isnt as harsh as others, does NOT mean you dont need serm. Only an uneducated idiot will tell you otherwise. When dealing with hormonal products, do your research and do it right, or else dont do it at all.

    You have no business cycling without a proper pct, every ph cycle needs a right pct. Stop cutting corners and do it right OP.

    If using clomid
    25/12.5/12.5/12.5

    nolv
    30/30/20/20

    Add in a test booster too. DAA preferably
    You act like if you don't use a serm you will have rebound issues 100% of the time, that is incorrect. You're making broad generalizations, stop. OTC PCT has it's place, and if you don't understand why you clearly lack the knowledge of AAS and bodily functions.

    Not to mention the information you posted is incorrect, check your dosages friend.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rhadam View Post
    You act like if you don't use a serm you will have rebound issues 100% of the time, that is incorrect. You're making broad generalizations, stop. OTC PCT has it's place, and if you don't understand why you clearly lack the knowledge of AAS and bodily functions.

    Not to mention the information you posted is incorrect, check your dosages friend.
    totally agree!... these kind of idiots are a kick in the balls to us... they advice a SERM for everything as if they were vitamins and if you dont use em the world will fall ... this type of guys give us users a bad name. sometimes i get annoyed when i read this kind of "advices"... now it is true that there are some compounds that can suppress you to almost 0 , and superdrol or tren is an example so a SERM is crucial, or you will suffer big time, lose gains, ect. ive seen studies of guys running anadrol and equi, they test levels drop, obviously, but recover after 3 months without a SERM and sometime s6 months thats a lot of time, so yeah a SERM is important, specially for 10 weekers and beyond... anyways im not explaining this "superman" worthless guy, as he called my advice "horrible", so he can take all the SERMs he wants at pathetic dosages even after a simple DHEA 6 weeker

    Just we need to understand theres guys that:

    1.- Dont have any pharma grade SERMs on hand

    2.- without pharma grade, not everyone wants to use a chemical that is labeled "not for human consumption"

    3.- want to avoid legal issues

    the list goes on.

    i can extend big time, but i think most guys get me, Rhadam, i owe you reps!
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    I'm not sure he was directing that at you ken, sounded like he was saying in general. I hope he was atleast cause you said nothing wrong. I did not even see the clomid dose lol, yeah pretty useless what he recommended for that lol.
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    I personally use SERMs with every cycle but to be fair the most mild cycle I have run was dimethazine for 4 weeks. Also I like to spoil my balls.


    Quote Originally Posted by KenTheEagle View Post
    totally agree!... these kind of idiots are a kick in the balls to us... they advice a SERM for everything as if they were vitamins and if you dont use em the world will fall ... this type of guys give us users a bad name. sometimes i get annoyed when i read this kind of "advices"... now it is true that there are some compounds that can suppress you to almost 0 , and superdrol or tren is an example so a SERM is crucial, or you will suffer big time, lose gains, ect. ive seen studies of guys running anadrol and equi, they test levels drop, obviously, but recover after 3 months without a SERM and sometime s6 months thats a lot of time, so yeah a SERM is important, specially for 10 weekers and beyond... anyways im not explaining this "superman" worthless guy, as he called my advice "horrible", so he can take all the SERMs he wants at pathetic dosages even after a simple DHEA 6 weeker

    Just we need to understand theres guys that:

    1.- Dont have any pharma grade SERMs on hand

    2.- without pharma grade, not everyone wants to use a chemical that is labeled "not for human consumption"

    3.- want to avoid legal issues

    the list goes on.

    i can extend big time, but i think most guys get me, Rhadam, i owe you reps!
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/223429-abscent-minded-log.html
    Quote Originally Posted by csa2179 View Post
    Pin the kittens with the tren, then attack the judges with the kittens, uppity bastards
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch5 View Post
    I'm not sure he was directing that at you ken, sounded like he was saying in general. I hope he was atleast cause you said nothing wrong. I did not even see the clomid dose lol, yeah pretty useless what he recommended for that lol.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gerbil View Post
    I personally use SERMs with every cycle but to be fair the most mild cycle I have run was dimethazine for 4 weeks. Also I like to spoil my balls.
    LOL im pretty sure he did, i can be a jerk sometimes also ive been angry since i couldnt find bac water, i think i was scammed by a fkn RC company, and then i read that comment with those dosage protocols haha. i got annoyed, but yeah i feel you. im also very paranoid with suppression, thats why i dont dare to run a 12 weeker of test without HCG, or superdrol without a SERM... and well, we cannot compare an epi 6 weeker with those kind of cycles, no way!... altho as i said, it just depends on you when choosing a compound and PCT, if you have access to it, if you want to. the OP clearly talked about his concerns regarding a SERM and im pretty sure he chose epistane because of that (atleast thats what i want to think LMAO), i also read a list of the few compounds that can be mild on the HPTA than others, halodrol is an example as well... while theres others that can fk you up. we all should study EXTENSIVELY the compound we will use and choose the best to us, we have no excuses, we need to do research.
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    ok this thread seems to be hijacked with argument so I'll spoon feed you

    ok first off if your 5'10 and 275 i think you should try to loose some weight. try for 240 which should be easy with proper diet and cardio. but with your hamstring injury idk.

    reason being the higher fat% you are = more risk for gyno
    dont believe what you hear about epi being able to cure gyno or that it cant happen on epi...it's bs
    Epistane is more of a cutting ph if that was your goal.

    funny how no one asked what his dosage will be but if it's your first time i'd go 30/30/30/40/40. if you start noticing sides drop back down to 30mg it takes 2 weeks for it to normally kick in. stay at 4 weeks if you want since it's your first time but honestly don't expect huge results from your first cycle in general.

    now you said you don't want to spend that much money but honestly if you dont have any support supps on hand it's going to get pricey. you said you had a few, fishoil and a multi which is good but make sure you have enough.
    for this cycle you will need a few support supps
    cissus/ joint support
    milk thistle/ whatever liver support of your preference
    taurine for back pumps
    i'd recommend fishoil
    a solid multi

    plus you need to up your protein intake while on a cycle to maximize results so more powder or more food is more money

    theres no need to buy brand name stuff so with that said it is cheaper but still adds up.

    pct
    clomid, torem or nolva. I've never used torem so I dont know about dosing on that.
    if you dont know where to get a chem I am literally looking at an add for a chem website in the forum as i'm writing this and has a coupon code am10 which members of this site get 10 percent off. DONT DO A CYCLE WITHOUT A SERM.

    with my last cycle I used epi and tren and my pct was
    clomid 100 for the first 3 days then 75/75/50/25 and I finished a little over a week ago and I'm fine
    if you want to do nolva i'd do 40 for days 1 and 2 then 30/30/20/20
    erase 1/2/3/3/3/2/1
    some people really believe in using a natty test booster, by all means it help but as long you you have a good serm it's not a necessity.Now i started using daa but my nipples puffed again when I started so i discontinued it and i've been reading it happens sometimes. but if you want to use it start it maybe 2 weeks out from end of cycle and run it 3/3/3/3/3/3. it takes 2 weeks to kick in thats why.

    this is what I would do if I where you but you need to lose weight and do more research. maybe look in the cycle info tab. there's tons of epistane logs on there you can look at as well as logs on first time users as well.

    good luck and again do more research.
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    Quote Originally Posted by LITERaCOLA
    ok this thread seems to be hijacked with argument so I'll spoon feed you

    ok first off if your 5'10 and 275 i think you should try to loose some weight. try for 240 which should be easy with proper diet and cardio. but with your hamstring injury idk.

    reason being the higher fat% you are = more risk for gyno
    dont believe what you hear about epi being able to cure gyno or that it cant happen on epi...it's bs
    Epistane is more of a cutting ph if that was your goal.

    funny how no one asked what his dosage will be but if it's your first time i'd go 30/30/30/40/40. if you start noticing sides drop back down to 30mg it takes 2 weeks for it to normally kick in. stay at 4 weeks if you want since it's your first time but honestly don't expect huge results from your first cycle in general.

    now you said you don't want to spend that much money but honestly if you dont have any support supps on hand it's going to get pricey. you said you had a few, fishoil and a multi which is good but make sure you have enough.
    for this cycle you will need a few support supps
    cissus/ joint support
    milk thistle/ whatever liver support of your preference
    taurine for back pumps
    i'd recommend fishoil
    a solid multi

    plus you need to up your protein intake while on a cycle to maximize results so more powder or more food is more money

    theres no need to buy brand name stuff so with that said it is cheaper but still adds up.

    pct
    clomid, torem or nolva. I've never used torem so I dont know about dosing on that.
    if you dont know where to get a chem I am literally looking at an add for a chem website in the forum as i'm writing this and has a coupon code am10 which members of this site get 10 percent off. DONT DO A CYCLE WITHOUT A SERM.

    with my last cycle I used epi and tren and my pct was
    clomid 100 for the first 3 days then 75/75/50/25 and I finished a little over a week ago and I'm fine
    if you want to do nolva i'd do 40 for days 1 and 2 then 30/30/20/20
    erase 1/2/3/3/3/2/1
    some people really believe in using a natty test booster, by all means it help but as long you you have a good serm it's not a necessity.Now i started using daa but my nipples puffed again when I started so i discontinued it and i've been reading it happens sometimes. but if you want to use it start it maybe 2 weeks out from end of cycle and run it 3/3/3/3/3/3. it takes 2 weeks to kick in thats why.

    this is what I would do if I where you but you need to lose weight and do more research. maybe look in the cycle info tab. there's tons of epistane logs on there you can look at as well as logs on first time users as well.

    good luck and again do more research.
    Good stuff here
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenTheEagle

    LOL im pretty sure he did, i can be a jerk sometimes also ive been angry since i couldnt find bac water, i think i was scammed by a fkn RC company, and then i read that comment with those dosage protocols haha. i got annoyed, but yeah i feel you. im also very paranoid with suppression, thats why i dont dare to run a 12 weeker of test without HCG, or superdrol without a SERM... and well, we cannot compare an epi 6 weeker with those kind of cycles, no way!... altho as i said, it just depends on you when choosing a compound and PCT, if you have access to it, if you want to. the OP clearly talked about his concerns regarding a SERM and im pretty sure he chose epistane because of that (atleast thats what i want to think LMAO), i also read a list of the few compounds that can be mild on the HPTA than others, halodrol is an example as well... while theres others that can fk you up. we all should study EXTENSIVELY the compound we will use and choose the best to us, we have no excuses, we need to do research.
    Yeah what the hell is up with the bac water deal??
    Was wanting to run a peptide but looks like that is screwed
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch5 View Post
    Yeah what the hell is up with the bac water deal??
    Was wanting to run a peptide but looks like that is screwed
    Fkn bac water will be avaiable until 2013, can you believe it? :S... fkn ridiculous... i guess ill stick with plain sterile water, and not letting it more than 30 days, and say my prayers to not get an infection LMAO ... will probably add benzyl alcohol if possible, still doing researchon that, but i guess that bac water is a no... and im honestly not delaying it until 2013
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenTheEagle

    Fkn bac water will be avaiable until 2013, can you believe it? :S... fkn ridiculous... i guess ill stick with plain sterile water, and not letting it more than 30 days, and say my prayers to not get an infection LMAO ... will probably add benzyl alcohol if possible, still doing researchon that, but i guess that bac water is a no... and im honestly not delaying it until 2013
    Jeez... Do you know the reason for it not being available until 2013??
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mitch5 View Post
    Jeez... Do you know the reason for it not being available until 2013??
    Apparently theres a nation backorder, thats what they said. due to high demand, the production will take long, some say that since it is a cheap item is not produced fast, because the supplier also produce other pharmaceutical items considered more "productive"... but theres something smelly as well, all i can say is i hope they dont stop producing it.

    Note: some say there was so much demand, that some people were selling it for ridiculous high prices
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    Too be honest production costs were probably dirt cheap. Start up cost would be a bit costly (needing either a ozone machine, or an autoclave of decent size). But benzyl alcohol and water are cheap as hell. Also you would need filters but they are not too pricey.

    Quote Originally Posted by KenTheEagle View Post
    Apparently theres a nation backorder, thats what they said. due to high demand, the production will take long, some say that since it is a cheap item is not produced fast, because the supplier also produce other pharmaceutical items considered more "productive"... but theres something smelly as well, all i can say is i hope they dont stop producing it.

    Note: some say there was so much demand, that some people were selling it for ridiculous high prices
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/223429-abscent-minded-log.html
    Quote Originally Posted by csa2179 View Post
    Pin the kittens with the tren, then attack the judges with the kittens, uppity bastards
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    I don't mind my thread being hijacked at all, I love reading the info lol. Anyways, Like I said, I have a very solid stack to begin with, I just wanted to play with some hormones. Anyways, I was going to stay at 30 on the Phenylvar for 4 weeks, maybe i'll go 6. I may actually just use 4 Chloro. I want a dry prohormone as opposed to wet. And yes, I need to lose some weight, but 5' 10 270 ( that's what I weigh now) on most guys sounds like a pig. I'm not at all, at 230 i'll be under 10% body fat, people who guess my weight are in absolute shock when they find out how heavy I am. Point is, I'm not butter ball by any means at all. I have 18 inch arms and 30 inch legs lol, I played football all through highschool and I started training at a D1 school my freshman year of college, but had to transfer, so I never played. Anyways, I thought Phenylvar plus Zycor + compound 20 and all my other crap would help me cut even faster. Anyways, from what ive gathered, 4 Chloro has no liver toxicity, but regardless I will have estrogen rebound, so legit pct sounds like a great idea lol. I never plan on using anything insane like superdrol, I've got pretty good genetics, I look like a "classic" linebacker, but I just wanted to experiment. A friend of mine put on 16lbs on Phenylvar and didn't used a SERM and he's fine. I still wanna try to find one, I don't wanna chance a THING.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Superman_777 View Post
    ^^@ some of the above posters who responded to me

    I get a laugh out of people on this board, ive been lurking here for years..So many of you live by the old school way doing things in terms of dealing with anabolics, well let me enlighten you..there are better options out there. We dont live in the 80's anymore.

    Im not referring to the pct setup I gave OP, I just have noticed that ever since ive been reading here, I see the same people that always jump on the bandwagon of a "tried and true" method when there are newer, better methods backed by studies and trials.

    Also, @gerbil
    The clomid dosage I gave is fine..Your the exact type of people I mentioned who sticks with old information and repeats it to others. The dosage I gave is more than enough for a prohormone like epistane..YOU do not need that much clomid, why would anybody want the sides you get from that dosage when you can run it lower, properly with little to 0 sides, and still be effective..

    You also lack understanding if you believe the dosage I gave was ineffective..I didnt feel the need to mention countless of people who have run that dosage and other proper pct supplements and made perfect recovery, but I guess I was wrong because you are either narrow minded or uneducated.
    Better yet, ill use myself.. I ran clomid at that dose in some of my pct's, multiple times ive cycled and made near perfect recoveries everytime. I dont need to state the obvious that since I recovered off superdrol fine, then epistane shouldn't be a problem.
    Hey yo whats up mr modern expert !

    Wow that was amazing info! but i have a few questions... first, you are saying clomid at 12.5 is enough ? but you are telling the OP to use tamo at 30/30/20/20? LMAO!... you are a smart superman!, 30 mgs of tamo is moderate dose right? ........... then, if you get pharma grade you realize that the tabs are 25 mgs, i guess you split each tab?... theres so tiny, you better give some awesome advices of how you do it!.... oh, but i forgot, you said the OP should get research clomid!.... besides labeled not for human consumption, you should be aware that RC chems differ from dosing, some are underdosed, and some are overdosed.

    LMAO... you have no knowledge, you are certanly an idiot, who is spitting stupid info with no back ups. FYI the 80's had very different protocols than now, and clomid was used at 100 or more.... 25-50 is a moderate and enough dose.

    you better writte a book mr expert..... but only to keep it to yourself, we dont need your modern info
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    This thread is a joke and for all the people saying OTC pct is fine your the ones giving bad advice the trs stack might be ok for androseries not for epistane a serm would be the best bet.

    No serm no cycle period cheap effective proven to work unlike OTC ... Go and use your OTC pct and when you get gyno or estrogen rebound don't blame me Epi is mild hdrol is mild it's all I hear yet theirs so many threads on anabolic minds where newbies got gyno from them and guess what they didn't have a serm on hand.

    Even if you use OTC pct you SHOULD have a serm on hand incase ... These boards are a joke these days and anabolic minds has gone way down hill for of idiot Americans talking about OTC is fine .. Glad I joined another uk forum much more better advice I used to love these boards but no more .

    Yes you need a serm if you don't use a serm stij to creatine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gym4Life View Post
    This thread is a joke and for all the people saying OTC pct is fine your the ones giving bad advice the trs stack might be ok for androseries not for epistane a serm would be the best bet.

    No serm no cycle period cheap effective proven to work unlike OTC ... Go and use your OTC pct and when you get gyno or estrogen rebound don't blame me Epi is mild hdrol is mild it's all I hear yet theirs so many threads on anabolic minds where newbies got gyno from them and guess what they didn't have a serm on hand.

    Even if you use OTC pct you SHOULD have a serm on hand incase ... These boards are a joke these days and anabolic minds has gone way down hill for of idiot Americans talking about OTC is fine .. Glad I joined another uk forum much more better advice I used to love these boards but no more .

    Yes you need a serm if you don't use a serm stij to creatine.
    Hahaha, first of im not American, im European... second, you need to read more, and ive never said he SHOULDNT use a SERM.... i just say he doesnt NEED it to the point of saying he would be fkd up for life.... can you tell a difference?. you have your opinions, and i have mine, i have friends who use steroids and ive seen tons of real world experiences, and also learned a lot in the forums, and ive read probably more than you. i am not going to discuss about compounds and suppression with you, because 1st, i dont plan to waste my time, and second you should already know it.... i said obviously a SERM is better, but no crucial as you make it look... with no SERM he wont keep as much gains,and will suffer with a slower recovery... never said it was ideal.
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    Ken my post wasent just aimed at you I know people who don't use serms but do they et bloodwork done do they recover probably not because the uneducated idiot probably just do more cycles to get more gains.

    Epistane is a steroid period and it needs a serm and everyone should have one on hand incase of flare up while on cycle I would say an ai and a serm is a must on any cycle.

    And even of OTC was ok why risk it and pay so much money when a proven Nolva or clomid will work and save your nuts.

    Also if some newb does a cycle with OTC pct and survives and doesn't get delayed gyno down the line who knows How many more cycles and harsher compounds they will do thinking OTC is fine.

    Like I said without a serm you have no reason to be doing a cycle just stick natural.

    And for people who use the lame argument that serms are dangerous they have been used for years and people are fine and it helps them recover the steroids your taking are more of a risk than a serm.
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    Quote Originally Posted by KenTheEagle

    Hahaha, first of im not American, im European... second, you need to read more, and ive never said he SHOULDNT use a SERM.... i just say he doesnt NEED it to the point of saying he would be fkd up for life.... can you tell a difference?. you have your opinions, and i have mine, i have friends who use steroids and ive seen tons of real world experiences, and also learned a lot in the forums, and ive read probably more than you. i am not going to discuss about compounds and suppression with you, because 1st, i dont plan to waste my time, and second you should already you know it.... i said obviously a SERM is better, but no crucial as you make it look... with no SERM he wont keep as much gains,and will suffer with a slower recovery... never said it was ideal.
    Its time to stop posting..

    You just stated earlier that the guy would prob. be fine if he didnt use a serm, so like I said, stop posting & making yourself look more stupid..

    Gym4life is right about these forums, people like you shouldn't be giving "advice" to newcomers telling them he might be fine without a serm. That is almost near to saying he will be fine without one, so stop denying you messed up..your making a fool of yourself.

    Youre one of the people gym4life was just talking about.
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    un subd. I feel like im in a special ed kid class and with some of the advice thats been given it appears to be a touch of downs.

    nonstophero I gave you my .02. If you are what you say you are then great but I still wouldn't do a cycle if you're over 16% bf

    and no serm = no cycle
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    Everyone has theyre ideas, mine are based on real experiences and research, prolly yours 2... that being said, OP you need to do research and take our advices witha grain of salt, our opinions are just a reference.

    IMO: not all the compounds are equal, theres a lot of factors that differ, as suppression, sides and nature of the compound.

    So i was being pretty specific with the OP, what i dont like is when some people make a general statements, claiming a SERM is ALWAYS needed for everything and that if you dont is the end of the world. ive seen ridiculous runs of even DHEA or 11-keto, and the PCT is a high SERM dose, honestly thats the result of making general statements and spreading em to newbies.... just my .02 cents

    The post directed to me or not, i dont care, we all can have different ideas, im not attacking anyone either
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    WHOA, fellas, calm down!! I'm not gonna just go by word of mouth here, I'm still actively looking into things! I just wondered what you guys thought! I may not even screw with this stuff lol, it really does sound like to me, if I'm gonna do pros, I may as well do the real thing! I don't recall hearing ANY of this stuff when I could go down the street LITERALLY to one of our local GNCs and pick up T-Bomb, or Andro, or whatever! But maybe that's the entire reason pro hormones got banned in the first place; the masses purchasing them and not being able to properly recover from the estrogen rebound do to a lack of knowledge. That sounds about right to me. Anyways, I get the whole no SERM, no cycle deal, I have a friend who has some puffy nipples from not using a SERM, but that's all he's got, and that'll go away, but if nothing else, I have received the no SERM, no cycle advice. Nothing against anything else I've read, I appreciate all of you guys' input, BUT I'm a "better safe than sorry" kind of guy, especially when it comes to my friggin' hormones lol. Also, what the HECK did home boy mean earlier when he stated "I like to spoil my balls." I have an idea, but I'm definitely not 100% sure. Anyways, let's try not call anyone out in a disrespectful way and keep on topic lol, we gotta band together so our hobbies don't continue to get attacked.

    I'm also into import cars (I'm an American) and Jesus, we already have to Domestic guys talking crap, as well as the GOVERNMENT in cases attacking out hobby and passion, and the freakin' Toyota dudes won't shut up about the Honda and Subaru guys! Even within the same CAMPS, The Single cam guys get hate from the Dual over head cam guys! It's like "YOOOO!! We're doin' the govt's agenda for them!!!"

    Anyways, Clomid looks like what I'm going to TRY to find and use. I haven't decided on Phenylvar:


    Supplement Facts
    Serving Size: 1 Capsule
    Servings Per Container: 60
    Amount
    Per Serving % Daily
    Value*
    2a,3a-epithio-17a-methyl-5a-Androstane-17b-ol 15 mg **
    L-Carnitine Fumarate 185 mg **
    Garcinia Cambogia 200 mg **
    Green Tea 200 mg **
    * Based on a 2,000 calorie diet
    ** Daily Values not established
    Other Ingredients: Magnesium stearate

    Or something with 4-Chloro.

    It sounds like with Phenylvar, a 4-6 week cycle is what to shoot for. Cycle support would be Cycle Assisit by CEL:


    Cycle Assist Supplement Facts

    Serving Size: Capsules
    Servings per Container: 60


    Amount Per Serving % Daily Value
    N-Acetyl-l-Cysteine 750 mg **
    Milk Thistle (Standardized to 80% Silymarin) 500 mg **
    Pantothenic Acid (Vitamin B-5) 500 mg 5000%
    Hawthorn Berry Extract (Satndardized to 1.8% Vitexin) 450 mg **
    Vitamin B-6 (Pyridoxine HCL) 50 mg 10000%
    Saw Palmetto Extract (Standardized to 45% Fatty Acids) 160 mg **
    Celery Seed Extract (10:1) 75 mg **
    Grape Seed Extract (95% Proanthocyanidins) 75 mg **
    Policosanol 20 mg **
    Zinc Gluconate 15 mg 100%

    I'll STAY on my cycle support supplement during my PCT stage because some PCT supplements can be toxic; this is just insurance that I don't hurt myself or cause irreparable damage to my body or its systems. Mayhap a little over the top, but whatever. I'll stay on my multi, fish oil, CLA, and Zycor, which is my fat burner. Possibly supplement with Creatine, Beta alanine, and obviously my protein, and Compound 20. This craps gonna cost the amount of a small third world nation, but I'm thinkin' I'll be near where I wanna be in about 2 months because of it; well worth the investment if I do offer my own assessment of the situation.

    PCT?? Clomid more than likely; I need to do research into what dosage I should be using. Perhaps a legit test booster or STACK of Test boosters/recovery supplements will be in order also, I'm not 100% positive on this point, but I am certainly working towards finalizing a POTENTIAL plan. I think I'm relatively close; thank you again fellas, ALL of you.


    I forgot, this will probably be what I use along with a proper SERM. It's called PCT assist by CEL:

    Serving Size: 3 capsules
    Servings per Container: 60

    Amount Per Serving:
    Trans Resveratrol (50%) - 600 mg
    Quercitin (95%) - 600mg
    Indole 3 Carbinol - 175 mg
    Horny Goat Weed (standardized fro 60% Icariin) - 250 mg
    Coleus Forskohlii (10% Forskolin) - 100 mg
    Piperine (95%) - 20 mg

    Other Ingredients: Magnesium Stearate

    Directions: As a dietary supplement, take 3 capsules twice daily spaced out 8 to 12 hours apart, preferably with meals. Do not use for more than 6 to 8 weeks without at least a 4 week break between cycles

    What do you all think of this plan??
    Last edited by nonstophero; 09-07-2012 at 09:11 PM. Reason: Spaced part of my post
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    Run a 6 week cycle of phen. 4 weeks is just not enough and it won't really kick in until w3 anyway, youre better off doing 6 weeks to see optimal results..
  

  
 

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