thank you for the info. it 's crazy a couple of months ago seen this dude i went to school with and he was definitely on something his arms were huge, the poor guy when i seen him one week ago it looked like he lost 3 inches off his arms he most definitely didn't run a "pct" bottom line is knowledge is king in my eyes, and thanks to this forum and you guys i'm learning a lot -priceless information- hands down thanks again!!!!!