Why do people bash "oral only" cycles so much?

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    Why do people bash "oral only" cycles so much?


    imo:

    Retention of gains has nothing to do with the cycle being oral or injectable; it's just that injectable cycles are normally run longer so there's a better chances of retaining gains that have been made more gradually over time.

    Also, isn't it plausible someone might want to do a short 6 week oral cycle to gain experience prior to moving onto needles?

    I don't doubt test is king; I'm just tired of people constantly waving their finger any time someone mentions an oral cycle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by R1187 View Post
    imo:

    Retention of gains has nothing to do with the cycle being oral or injectable; it's just that injectable cycles are normally run longer so there's a better chances of retaining gains that have been made more gradually over time.

    Also, isn't it plausible someone might want to do a short 6 week oral cycle to gain experience prior to moving onto needles?

    I don't doubt test is king; I'm just tired of people constantly waving their finger any time someone mentions an oral cycle.
    I don't agree test is king by any means, but overall oral cycles are WORSE for you than alot of AAS (not all) the liver toxicity is a big problem and the gains are rarely maintainable when you look at all the negatives really is 4 weeks of size gain worth it? (knowing you wont keep most of the gains) you can use it as a precursor to actual AAS but I dont see a point, I would like to point out again TEST IS NOT KING
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    What is king?
    “Obsessed is a word the lazy use to describe the dedicated.” -R.I.P Zyzz-
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    Quote Originally Posted by masonmarin18 View Post
    What is king?
    tren... you dont move on to king without going through test first... its more of a secretary or bodyguard... tren is a dangerous compound but EVERYTHING shows tren is better... so you shouldn't trifle with tren unless you are experienced but in my mind tren is very clearly king
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    dbol is king, ask arnold. its the breakfast of champions
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    Quote Originally Posted by TomGreen View Post
    dbol is king, ask arnold. its the breakfast of champions
    if it wasnt for liver toxicity i would run that stuff indefinitely but sadly I can only run it for 4-6 weeks :/ still say tren though
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFlifting View Post
    I don't agree test is king by any means, but overall oral cycles are WORSE for you than alot of AAS (not all) the liver toxicity is a big problem and the gains are rarely maintainable when you look at all the negatives really is 4 weeks of size gain worth it? (knowing you wont keep most of the gains) you can use it as a precursor to actual AAS but I dont see a point, I would like to point out again TEST IS NOT KING
    Several points:

    Liver toxicity can be an issue, but my honest unscientific opinion is that it's exaggerated, unless you're doing 16 week oral cycles. I know people who drink every single night, and not just one beer. I can't help but wonder who does more damage. Those guys, or the guy running orals for 4 to 6 weeks?

    As far as gains, there's more than a few reports of people keeping some portion of the gains they made on an oral cycle. Oral cycles are also shorter and allow a person to get back on a cycle sooner anyway.

    And I say test is king not because it's the most potent steroid, but because it's already in your body and is highly effective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by masonmarin18 View Post
    What is king?
    deca
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    I think people bash oral only cycles because they are insecure, or don't know how to put together a successful oral only cycle, or want to bully people who would rather do oral only as opposed to injectable and tease them about needles. they may have small penises as well? not sure...
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    Quote Originally Posted by R1187

    Several points:

    Liver toxicity can be an issue, but my honest unscientific opinion is that it's exaggerated, unless you're doing 16 week oral cycles. I know people who drink every single night, and not just one beer. I can't help but wonder who does more damage. Those guys, or the guy running orals for 4 to 6 weeks?

    As far as gains, there's more than a few reports of people keeping some portion of the gains they made on an oral cycle. Oral cycles are also shorter and allow a person to get back on a cycle sooner anyway.

    And I say test is king not because it's the most potent steroid, but because it's already in your body and is highly effective.
    So what qualifies a product as being king is its already in your body? Brb water is king... And wow you keep a portion of your gains? Here how about you run oral cycles while I run an AAS cycle and see who keeps more gains after oh right your two oral cycles in the same time wouldn't even compare and whatever yes at 4-6 weeks you shouldn't notice liver toxicity to an extreme extent but if I'm risking my health I'm getting the most out of it I can
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARBIRDWS6
    I think people bash oral only cycles because they are insecure, or don't know how to put together a successful oral only cycle, or want to bully people who would rather do oral only as opposed to injectable and tease them about needles. they may have small penises as well? not sure...
    Hahah come on even you have to admit, comparatively orals to injectables aren't even on the same scale, while orals can supplement a cycle for sure and have many great effects they are just not on the same level, I'll take an injectable cycle over oral any day of the week... Except maybe short ester.. Then I would rather oral simply cause pinning ED or EOD gets annoying
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    knowledge is king, and you can always use that to create an effective cycle using your brain even if its "oral only", whether PH/DS/AAS/natty or a combination of any of the above. Its always good to mix and match all of the above, and part of AAS is injectables....but its not necessary to incorporate them into every cycle. good nutrition, proper training and lifestyle, and solid supplement/cycle choices are the important parts....not necessarily a mandatory injectable steroid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARBIRDWS6
    knowledge is king, and you can always use that to create an effective cycle using your brain even if its "oral only", whether PH/DS/AAS/natty or a combination of any of the above. Its always good to mix and match all of the above, and part of AAS is injectables....but its not necessary to incorporate them into every cycle. good nutrition, proper training and lifestyle, and solid supplement/cycle choices are the important parts....not necessarily a mandatory injectable steroid.
    ^quote of the year
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFlifting View Post
    So what qualifies a product as being king is its already in your body? Brb water is king... And wow you keep a portion of your gains? Here how about you run oral cycles while I run an AAS cycle and see who keeps more gains after oh right your two oral cycles in the same time wouldn't even compare and whatever yes at 4-6 weeks you shouldn't notice liver toxicity to an extreme extent but if I'm risking my health I'm getting the most out of it I can
    No offense sir, but you seem very ignorant.

    Oral steroids = AAS

    And I don't ever recall making the claim that orals are equally effective as injecting.
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    I want to change my vote to "I'm the king"....can I do that? or is it too late since I already cast my vote for deca?
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    Quote Originally Posted by R1187
    imo:

    Retention of gains has nothing to do with the cycle being oral or injectable; it's just that injectable cycles are normally run longer so there's a better chances of retaining gains that have been made more gradually over time.

    Also, isn't it plausible someone might want to do a short 6 week oral cycle to gain experience prior to moving onto needles?

    I don't doubt test is king; I'm just tired of people constantly waving their finger any time someone mentions an oral cycle.
    You sort of double talked in your opening. You said that retaining gains has nothing to do with oral or injections then continued to say the reason why injection cycles are better is because the gains come more gradual and are easier to retain over time. That is actually the whole premises being that they are longer, more gradual and therefore easier to retain. A 4 week cycle of superdrol is going to do nothing for you 8 weeks out. This, unless someone is just using it as a 3 week kicker. Once someone gets their feet wet with oral cycles, research intensely and efficiently and move on to injections...all of it is about to be illegal by the spring anyway and if you learn what you are doing, injections are the way to go by far.
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    Quote Originally Posted by R1187

    No offense sir, but you seem very ignorant.

    Oral steroids = AAS

    And I don't ever recall making the claim that orals are equally effective as injecting.
    I know they are AAS but don't try to turn this in your favor by a technicality... AAS when GENERALLY spoken about is referred to injectables I.e. tren, deca, test, eq, etc.

    And you were ranting about how shorter cycles means less time off... Why would I spend more time on to achieve less of anything? Seems ridiculous to me
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARBIRDWS6
    I want to change my vote to "I'm the king"....can I do that? or is it too late since I already cast my vote for deca?
    Bow down to the king? I cast vote number 2
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFlifting

    tren... you dont move on to king without going through test first... its more of a secretary or bodyguard... tren is a dangerous compound but EVERYTHING shows tren is better... so you shouldn't trifle with tren unless you are experienced but in my mind tren is very clearly king
    Only if that is your thing. Tren, maybe king for some but perhaps not others...it is all somewhat subjective.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardknock

    Only if that is your thing. Tren, maybe king for some but perhaps not others...it is all somewhat subjective.
    I can agree with this rationale, if someone reacts poorly with tren they might favor masteron or winny, I personally say tren is king however
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    Quote Originally Posted by R1187

    Several points:

    Liver toxicity can be an issue, but my honest unscientific opinion is that it's exaggerated, unless you're doing 16 week oral cycles. I know people who drink every single night, and not just one beer. I can't help but wonder who does more damage. Those guys, or the guy running orals for 4 to 6 weeks?

    As far as gains, there's more than a few reports of people keeping some portion of the gains they made on an oral cycle. Oral cycles are also shorter and allow a person to get back on a cycle sooner anyway.

    And I say test is king not because it's the most potent steroid, but because it's already in your body and is highly effective.
    Not sure how the next to last paragraph in accurate? Orals allow you to get back on sooner? But if you are running a 16 week cycle, you can get back on relatively in the same amount of time as an oral. I cant see the reasoning for a person to run an oral for 4 weeks and then hop back on it 4 weeks later.
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    High dose Test is king. I have run almost everything in the last 25 years and NOTHING compares to 1,200-1,500mg of Test weekly. You feel great, have tons of horsepower in the gym and can lay pipe all night long.

    Tren is a great recomping drug but the sides suck donkey d1@k.
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    yeah I hate tren.....tried it every which way, injectable couple of times...moderate and high dose, ate the pellets way back when, trenazone, you name it. Gives me nothing but sides and no great muscle gain. But I love winny and deca, so Its pretty random as to what works for any particular individual....
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    Quote Originally Posted by heavyiron
    High dose Test is king. I have run almost everything in the last 25 years and NOTHING compares to 1,200-1,500mg of Test weekly. You feel great, have tons of horsepower in the gym and can lay pipe all night long.

    Tren is a great recomping drug but the sides suck donkey d1@k.
    But as for overall sides you need control that estrogen on high dose test, high estrogen has numerous side effects that are much worse than night sweats and some ballin dreams you get from tren
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    Quote Originally Posted by heavyiron
    High dose Test is king. I have run almost everything in the last 25 years and NOTHING compares to 1,200-1,500mg of Test weekly. You feel great, have tons of horsepower in the gym and can lay pipe all night long.

    Tren is a great recomping drug but the sides suck donkey d1@k.
    Granted I suppose I have never ran over 600mg/week test, so I can't compare with your results
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    Quote Originally Posted by heavyiron
    High dose Test is king. I have run almost everything in the last 25 years and NOTHING compares to 1,200-1,500mg of Test weekly. You feel great, have tons of horsepower in the gym and can lay pipe all night long.

    Tren is a great recomping drug but the sides suck donkey d1@k.
    Thats a nice large amount. I do know guys that take 2g but they are purely competing in strong men contest. TestE and anadrol baby
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    Quote Originally Posted by WARBIRDWS6
    I want to change my vote to "I'm the king"....can I do that? or is it too late since I already cast my vote for deca?
    ^^^^haha this guy. I vote u for king as long as I can be head chef!
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigShadow View Post
    ^^^^haha this guy. I vote u for king as long as I can be head chef!
    deal.
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    all i have to say on all this is...
    cycle length....
    and this..

    Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
    Hepatoxicty: Fact or Fiction?
    by Roy Harper

    We all know that the alpha alkylated steroids are hepatotoxic, right?.. But, is there actually any truth to this? We?ve been told for years that if you take 17 alpha-alkylated steroids, you will eventually run into liver problems. Never combine 17 aa's, never go beyond 50mg day, never go longer than 4 weeks, etc. All of this is crap! As I we walk you through some studies, today, you'll see 17 alpha-alkylated steroids can be hepatotoxic but not to the degree you would think.

    To make a steroid hepatotoxic, you need only a small change to a steroid molecule; A strong bond that cannot readily be down broken by enzymes in the liver. This may be a bond at the 17th position, or even at the 1st position (as in methenolone or proviron). Because the liver cannot easily break the steroid down before it is released in to the blood stream, this also results in the steroid to becoming more orally bio-available.

    We can see that the liver has to work harder to break down these steroids. Enzymes in the blood and tissue easily metabolize other steroids such as Testosterone. Commonly, this increase in liver activity has been viewed as a harmful process, but as you will see, this increase is, in and of itself, irrelevant. The liver is THE filter of the human body -- it can figure out what to do with just about anything. The only real problem comes in when one keeps their liver at full blast for long periods of time.

    Let?s look at some studies showing the hepatotoxicity of steroids. Here's one of my favorites, a study published in 1979[1]. Essentially, researches did a study of deaths caused by hepatic angiosarcoma (a malignant tumor of vascular tissue in the liver) between 1964 and 1974. Researchers found 131 reported cases of death from hepatic angiosarcoma. Out of the 131 cases, 3.1% (4 cases) were reported to be at all related to the use of androgenic-anabolic steroids. Keep in mind that these 4 people could have liver complications before any steroids were used, aka a genetic disposition. In fact there is no proof, in this study at least, that the anabolic-androgenic steroids even caused the hepatic angiosarcoma.

    This is the classic case of associating a cause with an effect, without any evidence, aside from both existing. Furthermore, based on the above numbers, there are only 0.4 cases of hepatic angiosarcoma reported each year, by those using AAS. Now consider the number of people on steroids at this time. Now factor in all the people that don't know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to using AAS, properly. Clearly, this is very weak evidence. Lastly there has not been a real increase in hepatic angiosarcoma since the early seventies. Meanwhile, there has been a huge, almost exponential, increase in steroid use during this period.

    Another study, that somewhat supports the previous hepatotoxicity case, showed the possibilities of hepatic adenomas(cysts in the liver) caused by androgenic-anabolic steroids[2]. In this study, a Japanese girl was found to have multiple liver lesions after the use of the drug oxymetholone (aka Anadrol). Most everyone knows that Anadrol is linked with liver problems, but a closer inspection into this study shows more.

    Apparently, this girl, starting at the age of 14, was diagnosed with aplastic anemia. She was prescribed oxymetholone at 30mg per day. This continued for 6 years until the lesions first appeared. Assuming that the girl was most likely around 100 lbs., this was a pretty heavy dosage. If you extrapolated this data out to a 200 - 250lbs. male, that would be taking approximately 60 - 90mg of anadrol per day for 6 years. Ouch!

    The researchers also stated that there were only 17 other cases of hepatic adenomas, found in English literature between 1975 and 1998. They failed to mention the causes of these 17 cases, but there is no reason to believe they were all using 17-AA androgens and 17 is certainly miniscule compared to the number of people who have used them. The authors finish off the study by saying the following: "This report may be helpful in identifying the population who is at risk of developing hepatic sex hormone-related tumors." So remember, if you're a small 14-year-old girl taking 30mg of Anadrol per day for 6 years, you may be at risk!



    Let's move on to some more useful studies. Take for example a 1995 study that showed the toxic effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids in primary rat hepatic cell cultures[3]. In this study the researchers used the following drugs and dosages:

    Steroid
    1x10^-8M
    1x10^-6M
    1x10^-4M

    19-nortestosterone
    0.002744mg
    0.2744mg
    27.44mg

    Fluoxymesterone
    0.003365mg
    0.3365mg
    33.65mg

    Testosterone cypionate
    0.004126mg
    0.4126mg
    41.26mg

    Stanozolol
    0.003285mg
    0.3285mg
    32.85mg

    Danazol
    N/A
    N/A
    N/A

    Oxymetholone
    0.003325mg
    0.3325mg
    33.25mg

    Testosterone
    0.002884mg
    0.2884mg
    28.84mg

    Estradiol
    0.0027424mg
    0.2724mg
    27.24mg

    Methyltestosterone
    0.003024mg
    0.3024mg
    30.24mg


    As proof of the hepatoxicity they used Lactate dehydrogenase release, neutral red retention, and glutathione depletion to determine plasma membrane damage, cell viability, and possible oxidative injury, respectively.

    What they showed was that the 17 alpha-alkylated steroids, methyltestosterone, stanozolol and oxymetholone, significantly increased Lactate dehydrogenase release and decreased neutral red retention at the 1x10^-4M dosage for 24h. Both methyltestosterone and oxymetholone also showed depleted glutathione at the 1x10^-4M dosage after 2h, 6h and 8h treatments. In other words they increased liver activity. You may also note that the other, non-alkylated steroids showed no significant difference in any levels. All in all this not only shows that 17 alpha-alkylated steroids are directly 'hepatotoxic', but also non-alkylated steroids are not hepatotoxic at all. But is this a real measure of hepatotoxicity?

    There is yet to be any correlation between the increase of the above-mentioned measurement and 'hepatotoxicity'. Obviously, high dosages of the 17 alpha-alkylated steroids are potentially dangerous, but upon closer inspection, the study reveals more.

    Take a look, the researchers took cell cultures from the livers of 60-day-old Sprague-Dawley rats. Not only are rat livers much smaller than human livers, but these were merely cultures. Furthermore, it was the 1x10^-4M concentrations that caused the most changes, but these are approximately 1 to a 1/3 of a full, daily human dosage -- at least for the 17 alpha-alkylated steroids. Even at the 1x10^-6M concentration, there were no significant changes observed. It's apparent that the levels of 17 alpha-alkylated steroids used were potentially toxic, but for a human to take the same amount would be insane. I'm guessing this could translate to maybe 4 grams every 24 hours or 28 grams a week if not more.

    What is common so far is we can only prove that any steroid, that is believed to be hepatotoxic, only increases liver activity. I'll say it again, where is the correlation to hepatotoxicity? We know that if the liver is running at 100% for long periods this may cause complications, but this is akin to any other chemical, which is metabolized by the liver. Ever noticed that liver cancer due to alcoholism takes decades of constant alcohol abuse? It's apparent that the possibility for hepatotoxicity is there, but for the smart steroid user this is nearly an impossible task.

    Another study done in 1999, attempted to show the acute and chronic effects of stanozolol on the liver[4]. In acute treatments of stanozolol, dosages not mentioned, both cytochrome P456 and b5 (microsomal enzymes) levels dropped after 48 hours, and then at 72 hours, levels significant increased. On the other hand, with chronic treatments, time or dosage not mentioned, these microsomal enzymes showed a decrease in levels. Researchers showed that both acute and chronic treatments resulted in "slight to moderate inflammatory or degenerative lesions in centrilobular hepatocytes", but the authors did not note true hepatotoxicity.

    How about we look at the other side of the story, the good studies. For instance, in a 1999 study, which looked at the effects of an 8-week cycle of 17 alpha-alkylated steroids[5]. The researchers used fluoxymesterone, methylandrostanolone, or stanozolol on rats at 2mg/kg-body weight, five times a week for 8 weeks. That's 182mg per dosage, for a 200lb man, or 910mg per week. Half of the rats were sedentary and the other were trained on a treadmill.

    Levels of NADH-cytochrome c reductase, succinate cytochrome c reductase, and cytochrome oxidase (showing liver activity), increased in the steroid-administered rats, while citrate synthase showed no change. Comparatively, in vitro, the "cytochrome oxidase and citrate synthase activities were insensitive to the AAS, whereas NADH-cytochrome c reductase and succinate cytochrome c reductase activities were partly inhibited."

    Furthermore, in vivo, each rat had liver enzyme levels that were within normal range. From this, the researchers determined that the steroid-administered rats, trained or sedentary, did not show "...classical serum indicators of hepatic function". Extrapolating this, 910mg a week for 8 weeks could potentially have little to no effect on the liver in humans.

    As for human studies, in 1999 researchers tried to prove that the hepatotoxicity of steroids is overstated[6]. In this study, 15 of the participants were bodybuilders using self-administered steroid dosages and 10 were non-steroid bodybuilders. Serum data was compared to 49 patients with viral hepatitis, and 592 exercising and non-exercising medical students. [

    All of the bodybuilders showed increases in aspartate aminotransferase (AST), alanine aminotransferase (ALT) and creatine kinase (CK) while gamma-glutamyltranspeptidase (GGT) levels were in the normal range. In comparison, hepatitis patients showed increased ALT, AST, and GGT levels while the control exercising medical students showed increased CK levels. From this, the researchers suggested that it is the correlation between AST, ALT and GGT that shows true liver dysfunction. Keep in mind, we can only guess that the 15 steroid users were using 17 alpha-alkylated steroids, and we do not know what the dosages that were used., but common sense tells us the results are likely relevant.

    Last but not least, a simple study done in 1996, showed the long term benefits after taking a 3 month break from steroids[7]. 16 bodybuilders using steroids were compared to 12 bodybuilders that were not. After a three-month drug withdrawal, the researchers showed that levels of liver enzymes, types not mentioned, returned to the same as the non users. Again the dosages are left to the reader's imagination and we can only guess that the 16 steroid users were using 17 alpha-alkylated steroids.

    So what can we conclude from all of this? First off, 17 alpha-alkylated steroids are hepatotoxic in high dosages taken for a long time. On the other hand, short cycles and small dosages appear to be perfectly safe. Simply put, the hysteria surrounding 'hepatoxic' steroids, is based mainly on folk lore.


    References:

    [1] Lancet 1979 Nov 24;2(8152):1120-3, Hepatic angiosarcoma associated with androgenic-anabolic steroids. Falk H, Thomas LB, Popper H, Ishak KG.

    [2] J Gastroenterol 2000;35(7):557-62, Multiple hepatic adenomas caused by long-term administration of androgenic steroids for aplastic anemia in association with familial adenomatous polyposis. Nakao A, Sakagami K, Nakata Y, Komazawa K, Amimoto T, Nakashima K, Isozaki H, Takakura N, Tanaka N.

    [3] J Pharmacol Toxicol Methods 1995 Aug;33(4):187-95, Toxic effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids in primary rat hepatic cell cultures. Welder AA, Robertson JW, Melchert RB.

    [4] Arch Toxicol 1999 Nov;73(8-9):465-72, Evaluation of acute and chronic hepatotoxic effects exerted by anabolic-androgenic steroid stanozolol in adult male rats. Boada LD, Zumbado M, Torres S, Lopez A, Diaz-Chico BN, Cabrera JJ, Luzardo OP.

    [5] Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1999 Feb;31(2):243-50, Rat liver lysosomal and mitochondrial activities are modified by anabolic-androgenic steroids. Molano F, Saborido A, Delgado J, Moran M, Megias A.

    [6] Clin J Sport Med 1999 Jan;9(1):34-9, Anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity: is it overstated? ****erman RD, Pertusi RM, Zachariah NY, Dufour DR, McConathy WJ.

    [7] Int J Sports Med 1996 Aug;17(6):429-33, Body composition, cardiovascular risk factors and liver function in long-term androgenic-anabolic steroids using bodybuilders three months after drug withdrawal. Hartgens F, Kuipers H, Wijnen JA, Keizer HA.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TFlifting View Post
    But as for overall sides you need control that estrogen on high dose test, high estrogen has numerous side effects that are much worse than night sweats and some ballin dreams you get from tren
    Yeah, an AI is a given on that much T but when I was a young man I got very few E2 sides. Tren is 3 times worse than any high test cycle I have ever ran sides wise and I've run plenty of both.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hardknock View Post
    Thats a nice large amount. I do know guys that take 2g but they are purely competing in strong men contest. TestE and anadrol baby
    Once I go over 1,500mg T I don't feel right. Its just too much for me personally.
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    Quote Originally Posted by heavyiron
    Yeah, an AI is a given on that much T but when I was a young man I got very few E2 sides. Tren is 3 times worse than any high test cycle I have ever ran sides wise and I've run plenty of both.
    Weird I only get night sweats and mild insomnia even on high dose tren... And do you really like high dose test that much? What dosing do you use for AI and arimidex or aromasin? Might have to look into it for another cycle later down the road so I can compare
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    superdrol isnt on the same scale as masteron you fu/cing ***/got idiot
    Quote Originally Posted by TFlifting View Post
    Hahah come on even you have to admit, comparatively orals to injectables aren't even on the same scale, while orals can supplement a cycle for sure and have many great effects they are just not on the same level, I'll take an injectable cycle over oral any day of the week... Except maybe short ester.. Then I would rather oral simply cause pinning ED or EOD gets annoying
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    Quote Originally Posted by Husker89
    superdrol isnt on the same scale as masteron you fu/cing ***/got idiot
    I never said it was...
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    stop putting out stupid WRONG info, orals steroids liek methyl masteron, anadrol 50, dianabol and many more ARE ON THE SAME LEVEL AS INJECTABLES YOU FUC/KING MORON
    Quote Originally Posted by TFlifting View Post
    Weird I only get night sweats and mild insomnia even on high dose tren... And do you really like high dose test that much? What dosing do you use for AI and arimidex or aromasin? Might have to look into it for another cycle later down the road so I can compare
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    YA YOU DID YOU SAID ORALS ARENT EVEN ON THE SAME SCALE AS INJECTABLES
    Quote Originally Posted by TFlifting View Post
    I never said it was...
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    why do i bother taking the time to post good info from reliable sources.

    and people wonder why Im so quick to neg, and be a d*ck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Husker89 View Post
    stop putting out stupid WRONG info, orals steroids liek methyl masteron, anadrol 50, dianabol and many more ARE ON THE SAME LEVEL AS INJECTABLES YOU FUC/KING MORON
    you deserve to be ****ing shot for your ignorant statement... INJECTABLES BEAT ORALS!!!! look at any study ever ****in done! maybe if you could run d-bol for 16 weeks and not worry at 50mg+ a day then you would maybe be correct but because of liver toxicity you cant do that so in no way is it even ****ing close to injectables and d-bol is one of the better ones! you ignorant **** should keep your mouth shut for spreading mis information, show me where I am actually wrong, because really the only thing I "may" have been wrong on is on a position that is based on opinion where as you information is just plain ****ing wrong gtfo
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    why do i bother taking the time to post good info from reliable sources.

    and people wonder why Im so quick to neg, and be a d*ck.
    good read, sorry I was on my phone and didn't notice before
  

  
 

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