First Cycle / Havoc need a bit of advice

[sunaddicted]

Cheers fellas,
first id like to apologize for my english - im from germany so its far away from perfect :nervous:
Im planning on doin a Havoc cycle in about 2 months and hope to get a little help here.
Im 6'1 weight ~185 lbs(~84kgs) at ~8% bodyfat training 5 days a week, only few workouts i skipped since i started training where caught up in the same week.
im doing a photoshoot next week will end my cut then in about 2 weeks and up my calorie intake slowly, than lean bulk for around 1,5 months before i start my cycle cause i wanna take the few lbs i can gain natty after such a long cut before i turn to the bad side haha!
Cycle is planned like that:
Havoc for 8 weeks
30/30/30/30/40/40/40/40 (quite unsure if i should run 7 or 8 weeks?)
I'll be taking fish oil , glucosamin and vit b6 at around 200mg ed throughout the whole cycle
For Pct ill hit up some nolva, daa, still vit b6 for the first 2 weeks , some Anabeta and when the bottle is finished ill give anabolic pump a try
Creatin is used all year round (at around 2-3mgs a day),Bcaa,Glutamine,zinc(50-75mgs),arginin and the others basics are also used the whole year.
Want to use this cycle as a lean bulk(if i add muscle while not gettin too fat ill up calorie intake constantly)
Any big fails in here ? or anything u would add or change up ?

Think ill do a little log then and continue it throughout pct and even after(i think this may be even more interesting then on cycle)
thanks

 

[sunaddicted]

bump :02:

 

[Lhns2]

I'd go six weeks at 40 with creatine saved for pct

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[SuperPro]

Looks pretty solid from what I can see. I would add something like AI cycle support or CEL cycle assist alongside the havoc. Also most of the time people run havoc for 6 weeks, but I think you could run it for 8 if you're feeling okay near the end. I would consider running it for 6 though and maybe doing 50 the last week or two. Glad to see you have a good looking PCT, not sure if you know how to run it but for the nolva I would probly do like 40 for first 2-3 days then 20/20/20/10. Make sure you take the DAA at 3g each day, thats the effective dose. Looks like a good cycle though, have a blast man.

 

[sunaddicted]

thanks for the advice guys, i think ill see how i feel on cycle and then decide if i start pct after week 6 or if i can go for the last 2.
yep thats pretty much how i planned on dosing the nolva.And DAA 3g in the early morning.
and ill get my hands on some cycle support then (propably the pills from cel cause they have the vitb6 directly in it)
would u add erase in pct or will i be fine without it ?
and do u think it would make a big difference upping the dosage to 50 for the last 1-2 weeks ?

 

[SuperPro]

I would definitely put in the erase, I didn't notice you didn't have it on there. It's an estrogen blocker(AI), which is essential for PCT. Great product. Also upping to 50 could make a big difference, many people say 50 is their "sweet spot" for epi/havoc. I haven't ran havoc but a friend of mine did, and he said when he upped it to 50 he really started feeling on. I had the same feeling when I upped hdrol to 100, felt like a beast!

 

[sunaddicted]

I would definitely put in the erase, I didn't notice you didn't have it on there. It's an estrogen blocker(AI), which is essential for PCT. Great product. Also upping to 50 could make a big difference, many people say 50 is their "sweet spot" for epi/havoc. I haven't ran havoc but a friend of mine did, and he said when he upped it to 50 he really started feeling on. I had the same feeling when I upped hdrol to 100, felt like a beast!

yea i kno what erase is, recently ran erase pro for 8 weeks.. ill put one in my pct then aswell, 2 weeks after nolva from what i read/heard right?
ok then ill up my dosage to 50 the last 2 weeks if i feel fine
thanks for the help man, cant wait to hop on dat bicycle now haha

 

[SuperPro]

yea i kno what erase is, recently ran erase pro for 8 weeks.. ill put one in my pct then aswell, 2 weeks after nolva from what i read/heard right?
ok then ill up my dosage to 50 the last 2 weeks if i feel fine
thanks for the help man, cant wait to hop on dat bicycle now haha

Start running it alongside nolva right after cycle, except you will run the erase 2 weeks longer so it will be like:

Nolva - 20/20/20/10
Erase - 1/2/3/3/3/2

Not sure if that's what you meant or not. Have fun man, I know I can't wait for my next cycle just gatherin' up the last bit of stuff.

 

[sunaddicted]

haha no wasnt what i meant. i thought ive read that u should start with an ai 2 weeks after starting nolva but i think i misunderstood something or it was just bull**** haha!
what will u be running for ur next cycle and when ?

 

[Lhns2]

haha no wasnt what i meant. i thought ive read that u should start with an ai 2 weeks after starting nolva but i think i misunderstood something or it was just bull**** haha!
what will u be running for ur next cycle and when ?

I start my ai two weeks after.

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[SuperPro]

haha no wasnt what i meant. i thought ive read that u should start with an ai 2 weeks after starting nolva but i think i misunderstood something or it was just bull**** haha!
what will u be running for ur next cycle and when ?

LGI SD-10: 10/20/20/30/0/0/0/0
AMS 4ad: 800/800/800/800/0/0/0/0
LGI Stano-200: 0/0/0/0/800/800/1000/1000
Aegis(TUDCA): 4 caps ed (this is liver support, using it because of SD)

PCT
Nolva: 40 first 3 days then 20/20/20/10
Erase: 1/2/3/3/3/2
DAA: 3/3/3/3/3/3
Reduce XT: directions on bottle through PCT
Endosurge: 6/6/6/6/6/6

Also going to be using Fadogia Root and maybe Fenugreek while on to attempt to keep my libido up, not sure if this will work but giving it a shot. Also am always taking Orange Triad. And will take AI cycle support at 1 scoop ed, 2 if BP starts getting bad. I'm starting this cycle in 2 to 4 weeks.

 

[SuperPro]

I start my ai two weeks after.

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The only time I've heard of people doing this is when injecting test e since it stays in your system for so long. Seeing as how orals generally have a half-life of about 8-12 hours I don't see why you would wait. That's my 2 cents on that.

 

[sunaddicted]

I start my ai two weeks after.

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ah ok , then i didnt misunderstood and this 2 weeks later thing is really around.
whats the reason for starting 2 weeks after serm ?

LGI SD-10: 10/20/20/30/0/0/0/0
AMS 4ad: 800/800/800/800/0/0/0/0
LGI Stano-200: 0/0/0/0/800/800/1000/1000
Aegis(TUDCA): 4 caps ed (this is liver support, using it because of SD)

PCT
Nolva: 40 first 3 days then 20/20/20/10
Erase: 1/2/3/3/3/2
DAA: 3/3/3/3/3/3
Reduce XT: directions on bottle through PCT
Endosurge: 6/6/6/6/6/6

Also going to be using Fadogia Root and maybe Fenugreek while on to attempt to keep my libido up, not sure if this will work but giving it a shot. Also am always taking Orange Triad. And will take AI cycle support at 1 scoop ed, 2 if BP starts getting bad. I'm starting this cycle in 2 to 4 weeks.

looks like u gonna have some srs fun! how many cycle have you done before?
when it comes to backpumps you should get your hands on some taurine from what ive heard

 

[SuperPro]

This is my second cycle, I've done a ton of research though. I was originally just going to do SD, but then I was recommended to add the 4ad and stano by a couple people on the forums and thought it sounded like a great idea so I'm rollin' with it. Ah yeah I'll be using taurine, I used it on my last cycle as well and it helped but on the last two weeks of the cycle they were still pretty bad. I ran hdrol at 75/75/75/100/100/100 though, which is pretty high, but I've seen some people go up to 125. The three weeks at 100 is probably why my back pumps got so bad lol. It was awesome though and I had really good gains, went from 165 up to 180 after PCT. I'm at 170 now but I've been cutting with oxy elite pro, trying to lean up before this cycle.

Good luck with your run man, I'm about to pass out for the night.

 

[sunaddicted]

ok good luck on ur cycle,too man!
also just recently heard about some epic cycles from people using stano stacked with sdrol cause it will lower the lethargy.
would aprreciate it if u share ur experience with me via pm after/while ur cycle
i hope i can hit 220 lbs this offseason till february/march (last year i was around 202 with quite good form)
then i plan on cutting with epi or hdrol and then stacked with tren.

 

[Lhns2]

The only time I've heard of people doing this is when injecting test e since it stays in your system for so long. Seeing as how orals generally have a half-life of about 8-12 hours I don't see why you would wait. That's my 2 cents on that.

Then if you start it immediately after your cycle why start at a low dose? People use ais on certain injectable cycles so if they were using while on cycle there would be no reason to stop for two weeks IMO to just get back on.

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[sunaddicted]

think he just got that wrong..
people start with nolva/clomid 2 weeks after last injection.. especially when it was enantathe cause of the long halflife..
i was just talkin about starting nolva directly after ending havoc cycle and start with the ai (in this case itll be erase/or erase pro) 2 weeks later.. dont really know why but i read that couple of times

 

[SuperPro]

Ah, I don't know. Probably works fine either way 2 weeks after or right away.

Also I'll be logging my SD cycle so expect to see it poppin up in the cycles section somewhere within the next month, there's a few things goin' on that may delay the cycle so 2-4 weeks from now.

 

[SuperPro]

Ah, I don't know. Probably works fine either way 2 weeks after or right away.

Also I'll be logging my SD cycle so expect to see it poppin up in the cycles section somewhere within the next month, there's a few things goin' on that may delay the cycle so 2-4 weeks from now.

 

[Lhns2]

Ah, I don't know. Probably works fine either way 2 weeks after or right away.

Also I'll be logging my SD cycle so expect to see it poppin up in the cycles section somewhere within the next month, there's a few things goin' on that may delay the cycle so 2-4 weeks from now.

Enjoy will be subbed when you log it

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[sunaddicted]

sounds good, ill sub! hope you gonna have a good run on it!

 

[sunaddicted]

due to reading alot of reviews/logs in the last few days i thought about a change on my dosage..
will probably go like this:
week1-3:30mg
week4-6:40mg
week7-8:40mg(if i feel comfortable with 40 ill up it to 50 for this to weeks)

do you guys think this would be ok ? heard most people think 30mg was a waste of time once they up it to 40mg and i have the caps on hand anyways..
also do u think anabeta will help in pct or is it just a waste of money ?

 

[Riskyb]

I really don't see the need to run all these extra supplements as PCT if you're already using Nolvadex.
The studies with DAA were done in 2 week cycles, and why use it as a PCT if you risk increasing progesterone levels?? Nolvadex will not help you there.
Nolvadex should really be it. +/- Clomid depending on what you're running. And Prami or Cabergoline if you're using supplements that convert to progesterone.
There was a kid that took Erase as pct and did labs, come to find his testosterone levels very low and estrogen very high. I wouldn't take anything that's not backed by some research. Just saying...

 

[sunaddicted]

I really don't see the need to run all these extra supplements as PCT if you're already using Nolvadex.
The studies with DAA were done in 2 week cycles, and why use it as a PCT if you risk increasing progesterone levels?? Nolvadex will not help you there.
Nolvadex should really be it. +/- Clomid depending on what you're running. And Prami or Cabergoline if you're using supplements that convert to progesterone.
There was a kid that took Erase as pct and did labs, come to find his testosterone levels very low and estrogen very high. I wouldn't take anything that's not backed by some research. Just saying...

thanks bro, yea i was worrying about the progesterone problems from DAA,too.. But due to nearly everyone using it as part of pct and me liking to get my test back up as fast as possible i thought i should give it a try.. do you think DAA caused progesterone problems couldnt be eliminated by 200mgs of vit b6 ? And with erase.. i ran erase pro this summer and i really looked a bit harder and had slightly more power / felt like recovering faster and i think an ai is a pretty good thing for any normal pct but when it comes to epi/havoc (like my cycle) im a bit confused because everyone is talking about rebound gyno, well when i run an ai in pct then the rebound would come just a few weeks later when i finish the ai (and already ended nolva) so as an epi/havoc pct an ai is pretty dumb or do i get anything wrong here ?

 

[Riskyb]

The only thing I'm aware of that blocks rebound gyno is Aromasin. You can run it during cycle and at end of PCT. but... Honestly unless you have gynocomastia problems I would just purchase a bottle and keep it there just in case.
You can purchase all these things spoken of online.
What I would do is:
Nolvadex 40mg 1 week, then 20mg for next 3 weeks.
I think you introducing all these extra supplement will do more damage than harm. Let the Nolvadex do what it's designed to do. It will raise your test levels. Adding all this extra crap may leave you with estrogen coming back around, especially if their half lives are longer than the Nolvadex.
Buy Aromasin, keep it on standby. If you develop symptoms, it will get rid of it. It's the only aromatase inhibitor that will stop rebound.

 

[sunaddicted]

ok thanks for your opinion bro - think i might do it just that way and maybe just add something unhormonal that sounds intresting into my pct so i have something to look forward to and dont loose the "fun" while pct.. no need to get it online for me ive got some sources here in my hometown and i can trust them 100% plus good prices for me

 

[AngryOldMan]

Personally, I would recommend a higher dose but for no more than 6 weeks. An 8 week cycle I think would be pretty long with minimal gains in the last two weeks. If you're getting blood tests done mid-cycle, then that's fine. Otherwise, I think you're just taking a lot of risk for minimal gains. I just got done doing a 2 bottle, 6 week cycle of Havoc. If I do it again I might dose higher, but I won't run it longer. My liver values were totally shot. And, yes, I did take support supps - Aegis and cycle support.

 

[sunaddicted]

Personally, I would recommend a higher dose but for no more than 6 weeks. An 8 week cycle I think would be pretty long with minimal gains in the last two weeks. If you're getting blood tests done mid-cycle, then that's fine. Otherwise, I think you're just taking a lot of risk for minimal gains. I just got done doing a 2 bottle, 6 week cycle of Havoc. If I do it again I might dose higher, but I won't run it longer. My liver values were totally shot. And, yes, I did take support supps - Aegis and cycle support.

im a bit worried about my liver too but i wasnt drinking any alcohol or anything else for over 2 years now and ill probably get blood tests before mid and after pct, so i think ill take that risk. there arent that many people who ran epi/havoc for 8 weeks and told about it in the net but the ones i read were pretty happy with their gains and havnt experienced a lot more sides than with a 4-6 week cycle. i think ill just try it and then tell you guys (or maybe log it all the way if people are interested) except i feel uncomfortable after a few weeks than ill finish my cycle earlier

anyone else got something to say on the pct thing ? atm id just go with nolva + anabeta or something else that doesnt affect test..(+ the standard supps and supports like b6 and stuff).. would still like to hear some opinions on the AI thing and about the problems DAA could cause

 

[threeFs]

I'm on day 5 of my EPI run. I'm at 40mg for 4 weeks and 50 for 2 weeks.

you can check out my log and the rest of my cycle under cycle info. It says havoc & 11oxo but I dropped the 11oxo.
I'm running dermacrine weeks 3-6
for liver, LIV52 (the one from india, green lid) and Aegis

 

[SuperPro]

I've ran DAA on an 8 week run solo before I ever did a cycle and had no issues with it, also my deadlift went from 275 to 315 during that time, so I had a good impression of the compound from the start. I then used erase, daa, and torem for PCT on my hdrol cycle which worked out fine. It did take my libido about 2 weeks into PCT to come back, which was about 5 weeks total no libido. Next cycle might use something different but I was happy with the PCT.

 

[sunaddicted]

I've ran DAA on an 8 week run solo before I ever did a cycle and had no issues with it, also my deadlift went from 275 to 315 during that time, so I had a good impression of the compound from the start. I then used erase, daa, and torem for PCT on my hdrol cycle which worked out fine. It did take my libido about 2 weeks into PCT to come back, which was about 5 weeks total no libido. Next cycle might use something different but I was happy with the PCT.

hm - that sounds awsome! nolva and some anabeta (wanted to try this since a long time ago anyways) will definitly be part of my pct! and yea ill probably add in erase in 3rd week(week 3-6 at 1/2/2/1) of pct + daa (week 1-4) with 3g ed..
even if this wouldnt be necesarry (but dont forget im running 8weeks) and nolva would be enough, i think its worth a try.. if i can get my test back up a little faster and keep my gains a bit better it'll be totally wort the money

also what was your experience with epi and kcal intake ? will i be able to eat a lot more kcal without getting to fat ? (read so many peoples opinion on this in older thread and it seemed like everything said something else, some were able to eat incredibly much food and other got fat as fast as if they'd be bulkin natty)

 

[AngryOldMan]

Tracked all my calories before, during, and after my Havoc cycle. Looked to me that while on cycle (30-50mg), I needed to eat ~500 calories extra just to keep up with my increased BMR.

 

[sunaddicted]

sounds goooood cause i can eat s***loads of food
so jealous of people who are able to eat 5-6k calories without getting too fat and can cut whit like 3,5 or so..
i'd do nearly anything to have a metabolism like that haha

 

[SuperPro]

I haven't ran epi, only hdrol but my buddy who ran epi gained about 15lbs(from 180 to 195) and most was muscle, a little bit of fat though. He looked like a beast. Just remember the cleaner you bulk, the cleaner the gains but also if you eat cleaner and it's less cals you might not get as much gains. I've mostly dirty bulked, but I'm a hardgainer so even if I eat like crap I still don't gain much fat lol.

 

[sunaddicted]

haha ok - ive stayed pretty lean for the last 1 1/2 years but ill go straight offseason monday in two weeks or earlier and then bulk till march so 6 month or a bit more for putting on mass bigtime .. ill try to stay as lean as possible but if i have to go over 12%bf it wont bother me.. and then imma start cutting till late april or early may and then start an epic cutting cycle with epi or hdrol stacked with tren probably (or maybe sd instead).. i wanna be 25lbs heavier next summer at same or bit better bf

 

[xerbia]

and 1

 

[sunaddicted]

Ok guys i got everything together, will order everything in the next few weeks and cycle will start in roughly 5 weeks. probably on october 15th 2012

cycle info:
8 weeks of RPN Havoc
30/30/30/40/40/40/50/50
Fish oil + glucosamine week 1-8
CEL Cycle support starting 4 days pre-cycle and throughout the whole cycle
Taurine week 2-8 (as much as needed)

PCT:
Nolva/Tamox week 1-4
40/40/20/20/20/20/20
20/20/20/20/20/20/20
10/10/10/10/10/10/10
10/10/10/10/10/10/10

Erase week 3-6
10/10/10/10/10/10/10
20/20/20/20/20/20/20
20/20/20/20/20/20/20
10/10/10/10/10/10/10

DAA week 1-4 at 3g a day (in the morning on empty stomach)
Anabeta week 1-4 at 4 caps a day
Anabolic Pump week 5-8
creatine is taken at 3g ed whole year round - dose will be upped to 5g ed the first 6 weeks of pct
Zinc(at 50mgs a day),BCAA,glutamine,pwo boosters ect are also taken whole year round but ill probably skip pre wo boosters once the cycle fully kicked in and then start them again in pct to avoid loosing strength and motivation an extra bit

Diet will be a bulk!
Im currently at 188lbs (85kg) or so at roughly 8% bodyfat and ill start to natty lean bulk tommorow for the next 5 weeks and then bulk the **** up on cycle! protein round 3g per kg bodyweight. after cycle ill continue bulking for another 3 - 4 months.
im really pumped for this and hope to gain about 25+ lean lbs during this offseason (+ the cutting cycle next year)

I think this should be a pretty sick cycle and my pct should be good aswell
Anyone here who would change something ?

also is anyone interested in me logging this cycle wid pics and stuff (+some infos and pics of my buddy whos running the same cycle with me ?)

g. sunaddicted

 

[threeFs]

Just my two cents here,
I'm on my 4th week of havoc. I started at 40mg and I'm glad I did. Not sure if 30 is worth it?

 

[sunaddicted]

Just my two cents here,
I'm on my 4th week of havoc. I started at 40mg and I'm glad I did. Not sure if 30 is worth it?

read 30 works pretty sweet for some people. also im running it for 8 weeks so starting at 40 straight would be pretty heavy haha

 

[threeFs]

The reason methylated cycles are recommended for 6 weeks and not longer is twofold. Of course you can do whatever you like but there are dangers of running methyls longer: Liver toxicity and HPTA shutdown/recovery. The longer you are on, the harder it is for your testicles and liver to recover.
I just don't see the point to run a lower (and less effective) dose for a longer time versus a proper dose for the proper length. Not sure I see any advantages that outweigh the negatives.
But it's your world...
I hope you're getting frequent bloodwork

 

[sunaddicted]

cycle will starts tomorrow- i expect big things to happen! im gonna get a bigass mofo, cant wait
still not sure if i should log it or not.. there are so many havoc logs out there atm. but mine is a 60dayer so this might be something different

btw: has anyone a tip on how to get that ****ing ai cycle support(chocolate) down without puking ? its just disgusting

 

[SuperPro]

cycle will starts tomorrow- i expect big things to happen! im gonna get a bigass mofo, cant wait
still not sure if i should log it or not.. there are so many havoc logs out there atm. but mine is a 60dayer so this might be something different

btw: has anyone a tip on how to get that ****ing ai cycle support(chocolate) down without puking ? its just disgusting

I have the orange kind and it's pretty gross so I just throw a scoop of the powder in my mouth and wash it down with water. It's nasty but you get used to it pretty quick.

 

[Lhns2]

Tang or sunny d... covers up about anything.

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[sunaddicted]

thanks guys, i just put one scoop in my mouth and wash it away with a little bit of water now.. its ****in disgusting but man.. what wouldn't we do for muscles huh

just wanted to give some short feedback - im 12 days into and its GREAT so far.. im a good bit leaner and around 3pounds up, first real strength gains today + im looking a lot fuller and drier..´my friend whos running the exact same cycle gets pretty similiar results.. if theres intrest ill put up some before/after pics of me and my mate aswell.. or someting like before/4 weeks/end
thanks for your advice