Testosterone for everyone...

[RogerBob]

Going to start a slightly controversial, open minded thread here.

We all believe in supplementing, where other scoff, as these little things add up to a change above the placebos.

So this had me thinking. We scoff at 16 year olds taking prohormones and steroids, and for good reason, but we also scoff at the intermediate/newbie also wanting to try ph/synthetics for the first time informing them to come back in 3 years after theyve tried everything else.

Who believes that, in a world where everything is up for debate, could ph and anabolics have a place in the newbie/intermediate persons dressing room?

Im thinking, not everything has to be 'extreme', mega doses and so on, many supplement their diet to be healthy or get the edge... we can spend £50 on natural test boosters for 12 week durations to get a 2 % advantage where maybe a 10th of the dose could aid for half the price and duration.

As I say the topic wont be to everyones taste, many will be free thinkers others will be "Dont mess with this crap.. and do it hardcore or go home", but its a debate worth having. Who afterall got gyno from Alri products that had mild PH in them?

Ive been working out a year and a half, yet I dont consider myself as a gym animal yet, or enough to scare children in the street, but am i contender to move up a level.

Maybe its not just for the self sacrificing hardcore.

Thoughts?

 

[Rodja]

You have to learn to crawl before you start sprinting. Part of the downfall of the internet is that there is sooo much information out there that it is difficult to separate the good from the bad unless you have the ability to critically analyze, which, if you do, you don't really need the internet. The majority of the magazines have the same philosophy and have been putting out the same **** for decades regarding training information.

Bodybuilding is so odd in that so many people that amazing **** will happen in a short period of time. In fact, I'd say it's one of the few things that has highly unrealistic expectations. When you think of any other craft out there, no person expects to be an elite level within a couple of years except this seems to frequently happen with BB'ing and steroids.

 

[Torobestia]

They don't belong in a newbie's repertoire. An exception is if you have an experienced and successful lifting coach and nutritionist guiding you every step of the way. The biggest thing about newbies taking steroids is that they have no grasp of dieting or lifting. Many people advising these guys against steroid use is that they'll just waste their money and put their health at risk for no reason. They'll take the roids, gain a few lbs, and then lose it all and more after PCT because they have no practical experience gaining muscle naturally and maintaining it.

On that note, another group that might be able to use steroids earlier are those that were fat or otherwise "big" before lifting and underwent a successful transformation in a couple of years. Why do I say this? They obviously know how to eat to gain, lol. Change their food selection, and you might see someone who could make and keep some real gains from a cycle.

BOTTOM LINE: No, with some unique exceptions.

 

[Husker89]

I think steroids are fine for healthy adult21 plus males and not for women, so no steroids are bad on the hpta axis and will mess up a kid or a woman.

 

[RogerBob]

So do we think its about knowledge... what if a user has just finished a degree in sports science and nutrition.. knows how to eat, knows what exercise is required, but has a small mountain to climb next year. Could they aid such a user to get his goals in 12 months even though his BF is 25%?

 

[Husker89]

its about knowledge and more importantly physiology and how the human body is distrupted(HTGA) from exogenous steroid use

So do we think its about knowledge... what if a user has just finished a degree in sports science and nutrition.. knows how to eat, knows what exercise is required, but has a small mountain to climb next year. Could they aid such a user to get his goals in 12 months even though his BF is 25%?

 

[Torobestia]

Experience always trumps "knowledge" when it comes to training, quite frankly. Book knowledge can greatly aid in proper dieting and programming, but nothing will help you gauge the results quite like years of experience training yourself and/or training others.

 

[Husker89]

we arent talking about training, we are talking about steroids of which you should have no experience with without proper knowledge about pct and side effects of anabolic/androgenic steroids.

Experience always trumps "knowledge" when it comes to training, quite frankly. Book knowledge can greatly aid in proper dieting and programming, but nothing will help you gauge the results quite like years of experience training yourself and/or training others.

 

[Torobestia]

we arent talking about training, we are talking about steroids of which you should have no experience with without proper knowledge about pct and side effects of anabolic/androgenic steroids.

I am aware of what we're discussing. My post was somewhat in response to the below:

So do we think its about knowledge... what if a user has just finished a degree in sports science and nutrition.. knows how to eat, knows what exercise is required, but has a small mountain to climb next year. Could they aid such a user to get his goals in 12 months even though his BF is 25%?

 

[RogerBob]

So if you googled the sh*t out of the steroids youre interested in, understood about pct that Arnie never used, and understood the full effects on the body are you good to go despite not being 300lbs monster.

Is there a limit, on the body, or is it scarmongering, thats my thought. Sure you have the whole "bones wont cope with the mass" argument, but on a users whos been training for a year? Can they still use it to benefit

 

[Husker89]

k my mistake, and i agree too

I am aware of what we're discussing. My post was somewhat in response to the below:

 

[Husker89]

what are you specifically asking man, you are all over the place, arnold is one person and steroids like food and everything else affects everyone differnetly

So if you googled the sh*t out of the steroids youre interested in, understood about pct that Arnie never used, and understood the full effects on the body are you good to go despite not being 300lbs monster.

Is there a limit, on the body, or is it scarmongering, thats my thought. Sure you have the whole "bones wont cope with the mass" argument, but on a users whos been training for a year? Can they still use it to benefit

 

[Rodja]

So do we think its about knowledge... what if a user has just finished a degree in sports science and nutrition.. knows how to eat, knows what exercise is required, but has a small mountain to climb next year. Could they aid such a user to get his goals in 12 months even though his BF is 25%?

All he has is "on paper" knowledge that may or may not work for him. Also, a lot of the methods taught in universities for both training and nutrition are archaic and very outdated (e.g. low-fat diets).

 

[EasyEJL]

So do we think its about knowledge... what if a user has just finished a degree in sports science and nutrition.. knows how to eat, knows what exercise is required, but has a small mountain to climb next year. Could they aid such a user to get his goals in 12 months even though his BF is 25%?

He obviously don't know what to eat or what exercises are required if he's that fat. Either that, or he doesn't really care. Either one says a use of steroids is a bad idea.

From the 3 angles

getting lean - no-one who does not have significant medical issues that should be dealt with by a doctor up to the age of 50 needs steroids to get down to 15%. Even in terms of muscle retention, so long as fat loss stays in the 1-2lbs a week range steroids don't add significant muscle retention. Anyone who needs to lose weight faster than that is a victim of their own poor planning + decision making which means they quite likely will have poor planning + decision making on a steroid cycle as well

getting bigger - if you can't manage to gain 1-2lbs a month naturall (even with some as fat) you have 0 place using steroids. if you take steroids and gain mass/weight your maintenance calories will be higher, and you'll need to eat more. you "can't" eat any more than you were before, and you'll just drift back to that old weight over time anyhow.

getting stronger - most steroid gains in strength are pretty temporary, a large amount of the gains fade within the first month after. unless you are a paid competitor, the value isn't worth the health risk


And thats really the critical part, the risk/reward ratio. The rewards are not that large, but the risks are.

 

[Johnnyboy004]

You have to learn to crawl before you start sprinting. Part of the downfall of the internet is that there is sooo much information out there that it is difficult to separate the good from the bad unless you have the ability to critically analyze, which, if you do, you don't really need the internet. The majority of the magazines have the same philosophy and have been putting out the same **** for decades regarding training information.

Bodybuilding is so odd in that so many people that amazing **** will happen in a short period of time. In fact, I'd say it's one of the few things that has highly unrealistic expectations. When you think of any other craft out there, no person expects to be an elite level within a couple of years except this seems to frequently happen with BB'ing and steroids.

What about cosmetic users or athletes who use to enhance performance? I have only personally known one pro body builder. By "known" I mean more than an acquaintance. However, I've played football, lacrosse, wrestled, and boxed, and competed in squar/bench/deadlift compettiions as a teen. Won a state championship in football and played at a competitive college.

Steroids are prominent in football and I would argue in most competitive sports. More than that, the majority of guys I know who have taken steroids have done it for a beach body. So the majority of people I know personally have taken roids other than for competitive bb reasons. At the college level, id say 40-50 percent of the starting roster was on cycle. But it wasn't something that was talked about openly or promoted.

Ive never used myself but I am planning an upcoming cycle. I know how to train, I know how to eat, and the reason I am here is to learn and decide whether or not this really is something for me. At this point in my life, it's too look good and feel good. Something I've never tried, when/if I do, I want to do it the right way. Does it make me a bad person or a bad candidate because I know longer compete at anything and want to run a cycle? Or that the only reason I want to use them is to look good?

Personally, I think this site is a great resource with a lot of experienced guys that have a lot of knowledge to share. I am a "newb" here. I'm not writing to incite anything other than some good conversation in the spirit of the OP's post.

 

[EasyEJL]

Steroids are prominent in football and I would argue in most competitive sports. More than that, the majority of guys I know who have taken steroids have done it for a beach body. So the majority of people I know personally have taken roids other than for competitive bb reasons.

and divorce is really common, and teen pregnancy is too. none of it being common makes it a good idea.

 

[Johnnyboy004]

and divorce is really common, and teen pregnancy is too. none of it being common makes it a good idea.

Haha. Good point.

But that wasn't really my point. I guess my next question should be do you think the only reason anabolics should be involved is to win competitive bb contests? Is that the only time taking anabolics is a good choice?

Some people want to be competitive body builders. Some, pro atheletes, or some just to look good. Do the reasons why really matter? Or is it the choice to use that really matters?

 

[Gym4Life]

I have to admit I know a lot of people who have taken steroids not just to get bigger but for a beach body that's very common...

I would only use them to get Stronger but that's me

 

[EasyEJL]

Haha. Good point.

But that wasn't really my point. I guess my next question should be do you think the only reason anabolics should be involved is to win competitive bb contests? Is that the only time taking anabolics is a good choice?

Some people want to be competitive body builders. Some, pro atheletes, or some just to look good. Do the reasons why really matter? Or is it the choice to use that really matters?

the reason makes no difference, but having enough experience and knowledge to make the risks worthwhile is. Its generally not the reason that is the issue, its the lack of real knowledge and/or ability to apply it thats the problem.

And of the guys who say they are using it to get a beach body look at this graphic

If they are at 12% trying to reach 8, then sure. If they are 40 years old and 15% or under and trying to reach 8, sure. Most of the time they are 21 and more like 20-25%, could easily reach 12 without anabolics, and won't actually reach beach body even with anabolics. But they very well may in the process destroy their endocrine system, end up on testosterone replacement for life and become infertile. I can point to a handful of members here (some of who will lie about it) who used anabolics at 17-20 years old and by the time they were 21 needed to be on testosterone replacement. It definitely does happen. So as a not in all that great shape 180lbs at 6' tall guy who is 20 years old, been working out 9 months and is close to 20% bf (while not having all that much muscle) there is no way that the risk of anabolics is worth the slight difference in gains/fat loss (from running the anabolic vs natural) that you'll actually keep after coming off the anabolics.

Simple easy way to tell. Look at this forum. How many 6' tall, 250lbs at 6% bodyfat guys do we have? 1 maybe. how many 5'10 180 lb guys at 12% bf that have run multiple cycles over the last 3 years? tons.

 

[Johnnyboy004]

the reason makes no difference, but having enough experience and knowledge to make the risks worthwhile is. Its generally not the reason that is the issue, its the lack of real knowledge and/or ability to apply it thats the problem.

And of the guys who say they are using it to get a beach body look at this graphic
View attachment 60533

If they are at 12% trying to reach 8, then sure. If they are 40 years old and 15% or under and trying to reach 8, sure. Most of the time they are 21 and more like 20-25%, could easily reach 12 without anabolics, and won't actually reach beach body even with anabolics. But they very well may in the process destroy their endocrine system, end up on testosterone replacement for life and become infertile. I can point to a handful of members here (some of who will lie about it) who used anabolics at 17-20 years old and by the time they were 21 needed to be on testosterone replacement. It definitely does happen. So as a not in all that great shape 180lbs at 6' tall guy who is 20 years old, been working out 9 months and is close to 20% bf (while not having all that much muscle) there is no way that the risk of anabolics is worth the slight difference in gains/fat loss (from running the anabolic vs natural) that you'll actually keep after coming off the anabolics.

Simple easy way to tell. Look at this forum. How many 6' tall, 250lbs at 6% bodyfat guys do we have? 1 maybe. how many 5'10 180 lb guys at 12% bf that have run multiple cycles over the last 3 years? tons.

Ur looking to make this personal. Go ahead and be the king. You are missing the point. For some reason younthink you own the rights to all of this. And that complex is probably the reason u did roids to begin with.

Who cares what reasons anyone else gives? If they arent your reasons, they arent the right reasons. Sweet picture of the crack of your elbow! What are you hiding, loser?

 

[lboston]

Ur looking to make this personal. Go ahead and be the king. You are missing the point. For some reason younthink you own the rights to all of this. And that complex is probably the reason u did roids to begin with.

Who cares what reasons anyone else gives? If they arent your reasons, they arent the right reasons. Sweet picture of the crack of your elbow! What are you hiding, loser?

I don't think EasyJL was trying to make anything personal. I think he is just pointing out the fact that the risk/ reward ratio can be overlooked and often misconstrued. He points out that many users here on the board are the 250lb , low bf type some think of when considered using steroids, rather they are the guys who have to keep running cycles to maintain a lean 180lb.

I think this is indeed an interesting though. I've been back and forth with the idea of running my 1st cycle as well, but not sure about it...

 

[lboston]

I don't think EasyJL was trying to make anything personal. I think he is just pointing out the fact that the risk/ reward ratio can be overlooked and often misconstrued. He points out that many users here on the board are the 250lb , low bf type some think of when considered using steroids, rather they are the guys who have to keep running cycles to maintain a lean 180lb.

I think this is indeed an interesting though. I've been back and forth with the idea of running my 1st cycle as well, but not sure about it...

***correction***meant to say "are not the 250..."; not "are...."

 

[EasyEJL]

Ur looking to make this personal. Go ahead and be the king. You are missing the point. For some reason younthink you own the rights to all of this. And that complex is probably the reason u did roids to begin with.

Who cares what reasons anyone else gives? If they arent your reasons, they arent the right reasons. Sweet picture of the crack of your elbow! What are you hiding, loser?

Nope, just want people to realize steroids aren't some magic pills or needles, and they aren't a shortcut that works unless you already have a really solid natural base. That's the real issue, guys want it as a shortcut and most of the guys who do aren't at the point where they'll maintain whatever they get.

The cries of "I'm a hard gainer" or "i just want to lose the fat faster" are common, and it's better to realize the magic pills aren't magic. more than half the guys talking about their first cycle have been training less than a year, don't really know how many calories they are eating, and are doing some screwball workout routine they either made up themselves or modified from something they vaguely remember from a magazine. That's not a recipe for success with steroids.

 

[Johnnyboy004]

I don't think EasyJL was trying to make anything personal. I think he is just pointing out the fact that the risk/ reward ratio can be overlooked and often misconstrued. He points out that many users here on the board are the 250lb , low bf type some think of when considered using steroids, rather they are the guys who have to keep running cycles to maintain a lean 180lb.

I think this is indeed an interesting though. I've been back and forth with the idea of running my 1st cycle as well, but not sure about it...

I'm not sure either. Honestly, I'm on here trying to gather info from experienced guys to make an informed decision. My point is there are guys from all walks on here. Some might be looking to make a hasty decision, but a lot of people are here looking to gather info and make an educated decision. It's not a vets job on here to do the educating but one could look at it as being a steward. It's not like this info is just out there and down to an exact science. Genetics plays a major role. Genetics is the variable . Anybody can write an article on the Internet. Anybody can write a book. This isnt exactly a sanctioned science. So it's hard even for someone like myself who has been around to just take someones word for it. And honestly, its not something i always felt you could just straight out ask someone. I finally did ask someone, and they suggested a cycle that i made a post about asking for advice. Im glad i asked here because i found out i was given bad advice.

I'll be taking a risk no matter what. But the more I learn the better prepared i am. A young man might not listen to any advice no matter what. When I was 21, I thought I was invincible too. But some of you guys might do a good service to a lot of people. It's not ur job. It's not a requirement. But the education you give from experience could produce a lot of benefit.

It's like sexual education. You can scare the sh/t out of people but they are still gonna do it. So why not educate them on how to do it safely and then let them make their own choices?

 

[Rodja]

What about cosmetic users or athletes who use to enhance performance? I have only personally known one pro body builder. By "known" I mean more than an acquaintance. However, I've played football, lacrosse, wrestled, and boxed, and competed in squar/bench/deadlift compettiions as a teen. Won a state championship in football and played at a competitive college.

Steroids are prominent in football and I would argue in most competitive sports. More than that, the majority of guys I know who have taken steroids have done it for a beach body. So the majority of people I know personally have taken roids other than for competitive bb reasons. At the college level, id say 40-50 percent of the starting roster was on cycle. But it wasn't something that was talked about openly or promoted.

Ive never used myself but I am planning an upcoming cycle. I know how to train, I know how to eat, and the reason I am here is to learn and decide whether or not this really is something for me. At this point in my life, it's too look good and feel good. Something I've never tried, when/if I do, I want to do it the right way. Does it make me a bad person or a bad candidate because I know longer compete at anything and want to run a cycle? Or that the only reason I want to use them is to look good?

Personally, I think this site is a great resource with a lot of experienced guys that have a lot of knowledge to share. I am a "newb" here. I'm not writing to incite anything other than some good conversation in the spirit of the OP's post.

First, you should understand the premise of the thread, which is inexperienced usage of AAS by teens. I personally could care less about what I look like and openly use AAS (my training is geared towards strength) and cited BB'ing as an example of the unrealistic expectations of AAS. I hate the concept of "knowing how to train/eat" as it is highly subjective and, based upon personal experience, tose who claim this generally do not know how to do either. Even Louie Simmons, the greatest strength trainer of all-time is constantly experimenting and looking for ways to tinker and improve his system.

 

[RogerBob]

Simple easy way to tell. Look at this forum. How many 6' tall, 250lbs at 6% bodyfat guys do we have? 1 maybe. how many 5'10 180 lb guys at 12% bf that have run multiple cycles over the last 3 years? tons.

I thought you said the most common wasnt the best idea?

I think Johnny the main difference is mentality of those on roids, they have probably never experienced roids at 20% bodyfat to comment, what you're looking for, and I guess me, is the advice of those who have used it to see fast gains, early on in their BB careers (or just beach body 'get the girls' looks) because I for one have seen many guys over 25 who have one day been a noboby in the body department, to ripped in no time.. when ive asked theyve said... "shh.. roids".

Im pretty sure, even a guy who does weights three times a week plus some cardio in between can still take advantage, just like the 6 day a week bodybuilder can, at the end of the day the speed up and enhance any kind of training youre doing affecting muscles! Just look at the East german athletes in the 50's winning every competition because they were all on Turanabol. Ok ok theyre top of their game, but it wasnt bodybuilding related and im sure the shot putters werent low bodyfat!

Id be interested to hear from runners, bikers,models etc opposed to muscle mass bodybuilders on the subject as it seems there is a lot of grey in this area.
Im also seeing anti clomid/nolva PCT information cropping up, stating how completely inadequate and misdiagnosed it is, now the questions have been asked (mainly on bb.com), but thats a curveball for another time.


Its good to talk.

 

[lboston]

I'm not sure either. Honestly, I'm on here trying to gather info from experienced guys to make an informed decision. My point is there are guys from all walks on here. Some might be looking to make a hasty decision, but a lot of people are here looking to gather info and make an educated decision. It's not a vets job on here to do the educating but one could look at it as being a steward. It's not like this info is just out there and down to an exact science. Genetics plays a major role. Genetics is the variable . Anybody can write an article on the Internet. Anybody can write a book. This isnt exactly a sanctioned science. So it's hard even for someone like myself who has been around to just take someones word for it. And honestly, its not something i always felt you could just straight out ask someone. I finally did ask someone, and they suggested a cycle that i made a post about asking for advice. Im glad i asked here because i found out i was given bad advice.

I'll be taking a risk no matter what. But the more I learn the better prepared i am. A young man might not listen to any advice no matter what. When I was 21, I thought I was invincible too. But some of you guys might do a good service to a lot of people. It's not ur job. It's not a requirement. But the education you give from experience could produce a lot of benefit.

It's like sexual education. You can scare the sh/t out of people but they are still gonna do it. So why not educate them on how to do it safely and then let them make their own choices?

Couldn't agree more!

 

[EasyEJL]

I thought you said the most common wasnt the best idea?

its not so avoiding being that 5'10 180 guy who cycles repetitively is the best idea

I think Johnny the main difference is mentality of those on roids, they have probably never experienced roids at 20% bodyfat to comment, what you're looking for, and I guess me, is the advice of those who have used it to see fast gains, early on in their BB careers (or just beach body 'get the girls' looks) because I for one have seen many guys over 25 who have one day been a noboby in the body department, to ripped in no time.. when ive asked theyve said... "shh.. roids".

The funny thing is that they could have done pretty close to the same thing without the roids, they just don't realize it because they never put in the significant effort without using them. And also again, they don't maintain it without staying on the roids either....

Im pretty sure, even a guy who does weights three times a week plus some cardio in between can still take advantage, just like the 6 day a week bodybuilder can, at the end of the day the speed up and enhance any kind of training youre doing affecting muscles! Just look at the East german athletes in the 50's winning every competition because they were all on Turanabol. Ok ok theyre top of their game, but it wasnt bodybuilding related and im sure the shot putters werent low bodyfat!
Id be interested to hear from runners, bikers,models etc opposed to muscle mass bodybuilders on the subject as it seems there is a lot of grey in this area.

yes, anyone can get some value out of them. my point was (and your example actually illustrates it too) that for a person who doesn't already have a significant amount of experience, knowledge and skill, the value of the difference in steroid gains vs natural gains that are maintained after PCT is almost insignificant. So they'll get a short term blip of change that is gone in a few months. The experience athlete in whichever area will get more value as they are both able to make more gains of whichever sort during the cycle, and retain more as they have better control over their body.

So if your gains are short term and relatively minimal, the risk/reward value just isn't there. spending $500 to set up a 12 week cycle of testosterone to gain 18lbs where 8 is fat, after pct have 12lbs with 8 as fat, then diet to lose the extra gained fat and end up at 2lbs gained of lean mass over 6 months is definitely not worth the risk of endocrine damage in a 20 year old, regardless of even why they are trying to do it. If it wasn't a sort of mean call out, I could name at least 4-5 guys who did exactly what I said above. Going further, I can easily point you to 20-30 guys who on a cycle of one of the oral designer steroids/"prohormones" gained 15lbs in 4 weeks and 6 months later were back to starting point. Fat loss? Same thing.

the more you know, the longer you've worked on diet and more success you've had, the more exercise mechanics knowlegde you have the better results you'll get from steroids short term during the cycle, and retained. And the risk of issues is high enough that unless you do have that using the steroids isn't worth it.

Oh and jeez, I forgot the simplest reason not to. Look at your life at 20 years old. odds are you are

1. Not married but dating
2. Not living in a home you own
3. Not in a career position job you've been in long term

Those 3 put together are the killers for keeping results.

Breakup with a girlfriend or find a new girlfriend who keeps you busy 24/7 - whoosh there go your results
Move to a place further from the gym so its a pain to get there, or ****ty roommates, or minimal fridge/kitchen space - whoosh there go your results
Lose your job, no cash or get stuck with a job with screwball hours and no time to get to the gym - whoosh there go your results.
Stress in general about any of those things? whoosh there go your results.

It does suck for sure, but those are the 3 main things that keep someone younger from having good results they maintain. Maybe 4 out of 100 guys deal with those without issue and those 4 out of the 100 are doing it naturally first and making good steady consistent gains for years before hitting anabolics.

Im also seeing anti clomid/nolva PCT information cropping up, stating how completely inadequate and misdiagnosed it is, now the questions have been asked (mainly on bb.com), but thats a curveball for another time.


Its good to talk.

risk vs reward again.... there are risks with those, but the rewards are worth it if they are used reasonably. 10mg nolva + 25mg clomid a day for 4 weeks is low risk and pretty close to identical odds of return to normal as the crazy ass 40mg nolva/150mg clomid for first 3 days to week, then taper down.


It is good to talk for sure. I've been here long enough, and as a software engineer in the financial world have enough of a mental grip on logic, patterns and numbers to have seen what does happen when 20 year olds use steroids. Its hard to find a success story, easy to find failure to horror stories. a bit older? much easier to find success stories, still not that hard to find failure + horror stories though

Look at the anabolic minds logo - Learn Teach Lead. I'd personally rather (and have multiple times) spend hours with a 20 year old helping them work through diet + training issues and maximizing natural gains than see them jump on steroids to often end up with less gains 6 months later than they would have had naturally.

 

[Johnnyboy004]

its not so avoiding being that 5'10 180 guy who cycles repetitively is the best idea




The funny thing is that they could have done pretty close to the same thing without the roids, they just don't realize it because they never put in the significant effort without using them. And also again, they don't maintain it without staying on the roids either....



yes, anyone can get some value out of them. my point was (and your example actually illustrates it too) that for a person who doesn't already have a significant amount of experience, knowledge and skill, the value of the difference in steroid gains vs natural gains that are maintained after PCT is almost insignificant. So they'll get a short term blip of change that is gone in a few months. The experience athlete in whichever area will get more value as they are both able to make more gains of whichever sort during the cycle, and retain more as they have better control over their body.

So if your gains are short term and relatively minimal, the risk/reward value just isn't there. spending $500 to set up a 12 week cycle of testosterone to gain 18lbs where 8 is fat, after pct have 12lbs with 8 as fat, then diet to lose the extra gained fat and end up at 2lbs gained of lean mass over 6 months is definitely not worth the risk of endocrine damage in a 20 year old, regardless of even why they are trying to do it. If it wasn't a sort of mean call out, I could name at least 4-5 guys who did exactly what I said above. Going further, I can easily point you to 20-30 guys who on a cycle of one of the oral designer steroids/"prohormones" gained 15lbs in 4 weeks and 6 months later were back to starting point. Fat loss? Same thing.

the more you know, the longer you've worked on diet and more success you've had, the more exercise mechanics knowlegde you have the better results you'll get from steroids short term during the cycle, and retained. And the risk of issues is high enough that unless you do have that using the steroids isn't worth it.

Oh and jeez, I forgot the simplest reason not to. Look at your life at 20 years old. odds are you are

1. Not married but dating
2. Not living in a home you own
3. Not in a career position job you've been in long term

Those 3 put together are the killers for keeping results.

Breakup with a girlfriend or find a new girlfriend who keeps you busy 24/7 - whoosh there go your results
Move to a place further from the gym so its a pain to get there, or ****ty roommates, or minimal fridge/kitchen space - whoosh there go your results
Lose your job, no cash or get stuck with a job with screwball hours and no time to get to the gym - whoosh there go your results.
Stress in general about any of those things? whoosh there go your results.

It does suck for sure, but those are the 3 main things that keep someone younger from having good results they maintain. Maybe 4 out of 100 guys deal with those without issue and those 4 out of the 100 are doing it naturally first and making good steady consistent gains for years before hitting anabolics.



risk vs reward again.... there are risks with those, but the rewards are worth it if they are used reasonably. 10mg nolva + 25mg clomid a day for 4 weeks is low risk and pretty close to identical odds of return to normal as the crazy ass 40mg nolva/150mg clomid for first 3 days to week, then taper down.


It is good to talk for sure. I've been here long enough, and as a software engineer in the financial world have enough of a mental grip on logic, patterns and numbers to have seen what does happen when 20 year olds use steroids. Its hard to find a success story, easy to find failure to horror stories. a bit older? much easier to find success stories, still not that hard to find failure + horror stories though

Look at the anabolic minds logo - Learn Teach Lead. I'd personally rather (and have multiple times) spend hours with a 20 year old helping them work through diet + training issues and maximizing natural gains than see them jump on steroids to often end up with less gains 6 months later than they would have had naturally.

First, you should understand the premise of the thread, which is inexperienced usage of AAS by teens. I personally could care less about what I look like and openly use AAS (my training is geared towards strength) and cited BB'ing as an example of the unrealistic expectations of AAS. I hate the concept of "knowing how to train/eat" as it is highly subjective and, based upon personal experience, tose who claim this generally do not know how to do either. Even Louie Simmons, the greatest strength trainer of all-time is constantly experimenting and looking for ways to tinker and improve his system.

Where in the title does is mention teens specifically? Louie Simms might constantly experiment but he wouldnt be the greatest strength trainer of all time if he didn't "know how to train/eat". I agree it's subjective because what works for me might not work for you. But from the time I had to make weight in pop Warner football at 10 years old until now I've had to manage my diet and train. By no means am I an expert, but I do know what works for me though trial and error.

And again, your motivation might be strength, others looks, others performance. The premise of the thread was aas use for everyone? Is it for everyone? Or just a specific group defined by goals, motivation, bf%, etc..

 

[EasyEJL]

Where in the title does is mention teens specifically? Louie Simms might constantly experiment but he wouldnt be the greatest strength trainer of all time if he didn't "know how to train/eat". I agree it's subjective because what works for me might not work for you. But from the time I had to make weight in pop Warner football at 10 years old until now I've had to manage my diet and train. By no means am I an expert, but I do know what works for me though trial and error.

And again, your motivation might be strength, others looks, others performance. The premise of the thread was aas use for everyone? Is it for everyone? Or just a specific group defined by goals, motivation, bf%, etc..

Being the "best strength trainer of all time" is subjective. But i'm not sure what any of that or Louie Simms has to do with anything.....

the whole idea of "what works for me might not work for you" is slightly true, but most people who say that haven't tried many things. they found something that mostly worked at one point and then decided that was the holy grain answer and don't try anything else. then they are surprised when they plateau and can't get past it, and then say "I need roids"...

the premise of the thread is everyone yes... which includes teens, and newbies. from the first post

So this had me thinking. We scoff at 16 year olds taking prohormones and steroids, and for good reason, but we also scoff at the intermediate/newbie also wanting to try ph/synthetics for the first time informing them to come back in 3 years after theyve tried everything else.

Who believes that, in a world where everything is up for debate, could ph and anabolics have a place in the newbie/intermediate persons dressing room?

And again, if you haven't spent at least a few years training your gains/fat loss/performance improvement with steroids is almost negligible compared to your gains/fat loss/performance improvement without them within 3 months of the steroids being over. This is the critical point. You may seem some short term effects but they will just about all vanish, unless you get into the constant steroid cycling, and then wave goodbye to your reproductive system. This is back to the risk/rewards. There is next to no real reward from steroids during the first couple years of training, and particularly if you are younger, there are moderately signficant risks.

The purpose of the steroid use is far less relevant than the ability to use them successfully. I could see a pole vaulter using them, a shotputter. Heck I know a guy who used them for highland games training. But he didn't use them that first year first time he was entering. He trained naturally for years beforehand.

 

[Johnnyboy004]

What would be considered constant cycling? Multiple cycles year over year? 1 cycle a year 5 years in a row? Do body builders ever go off cycle or are they constantly bridging?

 

[heckler7]

Nope, just want people to realize steroids aren't some magic pills or needles, and they aren't a shortcut that works unless you already have a really solid natural base. That's the real issue, guys want it as a shortcut and most of the guys who do aren't at the point where they'll maintain whatever they get.

The cries of "I'm a hard gainer" or "i just want to lose the fat faster" are common, and it's better to realize the magic pills aren't magic. more than half the guys talking about their first cycle have been training less than a year, don't really know how many calories they are eating, and are doing some screwball workout routine they either made up themselves or modified from something they vaguely remember from a magazine. That's not a recipe for success with steroids.

lets be honest, shortcuts are exactly what they are, and when your at the gym hovering around the same body weight and fat and your freinds jump thru that level like nothing you will want to do the same.

 

[EasyEJL]

What would be considered constant cycling? Multiple cycles year over year? 1 cycle a year 5 years in a row? Do body builders ever go off cycle or are they constantly bridging?

needing multiple cycles a year just to keep gains. 1 a year isn't bad, if you actually keep a significant amount of the gains

lets be honest, shortcuts are exactly what they are, and when your at the gym hovering around the same body weight and fat and your freinds jump thru that level like nothing you will want to do the same.

but they are shortcuts that don't actually work for young people, and people in their first couple years. Odds are really strong that your friends at the gym either have more knowledge on diet + exercise, or are applying what knowledge they have more consistently. Or they are using anabolics and lying about it, and you'll be able to tell once they come off, or end up in the hospital.

 

[Torobestia]

but they are shortcuts that don't actually work for young people, and people in their first couple years. Odds are really strong that your friends at the gym either have more knowledge on diet + exercise, or are applying what knowledge they have more consistently. Or they are using anabolics and lying about it, and you'll be able to tell once they come off, or end up in the hospital.

Yup

 

[tilldeath]

Can they have a place, yes. Should everyone use them, no.

 

[Johnnyboy004]

All in all, pretty good debate. See a lot of different points of view. And I am picking up what you're laying down easeE

 

[RogerBob]

Its good to talk

 

[Knowbull]

These should be used to augment gains in a person already lifting for some time and seeing results without anything. Excessive calories can do as much for you long term as any juice. Once you get to a certain point ya halfta blast and cruise for the rest of your life to maintain it. Blowin up then shrinking and being shut-down sucks.

 

[heckler7]

needing multiple cycles a year just to keep gains. 1 a year isn't bad, if you actually keep a significant amount of the gains




but they are shortcuts that don't actually work for young people, and people in their first couple years. Odds are really strong that your friends at the gym either have more knowledge on diet + exercise, or are applying what knowledge they have more consistently. Or they are using anabolics and lying about it, and you'll be able to tell once they come off, or end up in the hospital.

dont want to start an arguement here, but the truth is diet and exercise only get you so far, gear is the only thing that will get you the real gains you want to see.

 

[EasyEJL]

dont want to start an arguement here, but the truth is diet and exercise only get you so far, gear is the only thing that will get you the real gains you want to see.

I will totally agree with you except that the "so far" part is usually a lot further than 99% of the guys talking about using steroids are at. I almost never see someone asking about first time use of steroids here who has been working out even for 3 years seriously.