Important TUCDA/Aegis dosage question

[uubiduu]

Hi guys,

it is often advised to use TUCDA at 500mg/day on harsher methyl cycles. But what about milder methyls? Could 250 or 375mg of TUCDA (2 or 3 caps Aegis per day) be sufficient for protecting the liver on a p-mag cycle as example? Or is every dosage below 500mg/day ineffective independent of the compund that is run?

 

[rambofireball]

Bump for info,

I'd suspect it depends on the individual though, bw and individual metabolism etc. might have an effect. Might have to personally do before and after bloods at both doses with the same PH/DS to really find out.

 

[Jonbero]

An effective dose of TUDCA is 1 - 2g

 

[rambofireball]

An effective dose of TUDCA is 1 - 2g

I see, reasoning?

 

[Jonbero]

I see, reasoning?

Best liver effects are seen in gram dosages.

2g / day trial http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00877604

 

[rambofireball]

I read through the study, did find the mention of the 2 gram dose used in that particular study, however there was no indication as to whether this had been previously determined as an efficient dose or a minimum dose. The study itself is not even done, they don't have any results up yet, so we actually have no evidence as to whether 2 grams a day is a proven dosage in either of the two standards I stated before (efficient, minimum).

However, I did find a rat study from 2007.

69.164.208.4/files/Administration%20of%20Tauroursodeoxycholic%20Acid%20(TUDCA)%20Reduces%20Apoptosis%20Following%20Myocardial%20Infarction%20in%20Rat . pdf

They used a dose of 400mg/kg bodyweight, which is something ridiculous like 32.4 grams per day for someone weighing 180 lbs. Further exemplifying the fact that the dose used in the unpublished study is not anything to base an average dose off of. Of course, the study was also looking mostly at myocardial infarction recuperation rather than hepato-protective benefits.

Drugs.com has listed doses between 300mg/day to 15grams/day of UDCA depending on the condition, and no suggested dose for liver protection.

drugs . com/dosage/ursodiol.html

Personally, I think I'd just fly with the recommended Aegis dose, Antaeus is a pretty stand up company and in talking with Jake you find that he is incredibly knowledgable and resourceful. I doubt they'd suggest a lower dose than you would need for the desired benefits.

The Aegis bottle says between 500-750mg/day is all that's needed for standard liv protection from orals.

Sorry that last part sounded reppy, I'm not a rep, just a fan .

 

[BeastMode 1]

are you taking cycle assist(or another form of protection) with it?

i was gonna do 500(maybe 750) a day as well, but im also taking cycle support.

im only running epi(+nonmethyls), but next time i do something harsher(like SD), id prolly go with a gram a day.

 

[Jonbero]

Check out Dr. Housers thread on supplement section about TUDCA use for oral steroid cycles, he says the effective dosage starts at 11mg/kg of bodyweight at MINIMUM. I agree that Antaeus is a stand up company but I believe there's a reason the studies are conducted at GRAM dosages and Dr. Houser is also a very knowledgeable person, and yes I am a fan.

 

[Husker89]

I read a dr. D thread which he said 1-2 grams were needed to see ANY effect

Check out Dr. Housers thread on supplement section about TUDCA use for oral steroid cycles, he says the effective dosage starts at 11mg/kg of bodyweight at MINIMUM. I agree that Antaeus is a stand up company but I believe there's a reason the studies are conducted at GRAM dosages and Dr. Houser is also a very knowledgeable person, and yes I am a fan.

 

[BeastMode 1]

Check out Dr. Housers thread on supplement section about TUDCA use for oral steroid cycles, he says the effective dosage starts at 11mg/kg of bodyweight at MINIMUM. I agree that Antaeus is a stand up company but I believe there's a reason the studies are conducted at GRAM dosages and Dr. Houser is also a very knowledgeable person, and yes I am a fan.

I read that before and I agree that 1-2 grams is best. as you know, 2gs a day gets kinda pricey.

 

[Husker89]

ya for real

I read that before and I agree that 1-2 grams is best. as you know, 2gs a day gets kinda pricey.

 

[BeastMode 1]

also, it says on the bottle to use 8 weeks max. is Anteus just covering there ***es like companies usually do, or is a reason why it shouldnt be used longer.

like say im doing 7 weeks epi and 4 wks Pct, ok to use throughout all 11wks??

 

[rambofireball]

Unless I'm super failing, 11mg/kg would result in a dose of around 8 grams for someone 180 lbs, yes? By all other accounts that sounds kinda crazy for liv protection, and 4 times the mentioned 2 grams... Also meaning Aegis would be under-dosed at about 1/16th the needed amount...

There's gotta be a decimal off in there somewhere or something.

 

[Jonbero]

Unless I'm super failing, 11mg/kg would result in a dose of around 8 grams for someone 180 lbs, yes? By all other accounts that sounds kinda crazy for liv protection, and 4 times the mentioned 2 grams... Also meaning Aegis would be under-dosed at about 1/16th the needed amount...

There's gotta be a decimal off in there somewhere or something.

11mg/KG, kilograms not pounds. So for someone 180lbs it would be around 900mg

 

[rambofireball]

yup decimal off lol, .88 grams for a 180 pounder, not 8.8 lol. My bad.

 

[JudoJosh]

250mg TUDCA + 600mg NAC + 300mg Siliphos silymarin = should be good enough. I have done this before with methyl cycles and have bloods drawn prior and before cycle and my post liver values came back in range.

 

[BeastMode 1]

also, it says on the bottle to use 8 weeks max. is Anteus just covering there ***es like companies usually do, or is a reason why it shouldnt be used longer.

like say im doing 7 weeks epi and 4 wks Pct, ok to use throughout all 11wks??

bump for my previous question...

 

[rambofireball]

Skimmed the Houser thread, found this,

I think it is promising; however, TUDCA is frankly underdosed in most supplements. Best liver effects are seen in GRAM dosages; especially acutely where there is a significant dose-response relationship (and estimated to only begin efficacy at greater than 11mg/kg or - for ease - the average 220 lb bodybuilder or 100 kg for ease needs about 1.1 grams acutely) for hepatobiliary disease like cholestatic pictures of C17-alpha-alkylated PH/PS/DS/AAS.

From a chronic perspective (where some people take orals - defined as probably greater than 8-12 weeks),

A 2 gram per day (in two divided 1gram doses) trial was just concluded this month...http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct2/show/NCT00877604

Why? Because smaller doses were simply ineffective.

So - if not cost-prohibitory to you...then why not? But I would make certain that most on this board are getting anywhere from 1-2 grams per day orally if you chose to embark upon this as your hepatoprotectant of choice.


D_

I respect what Houser has to say on the subject, but like I said before, the trial is not concluded, and he simply states an opinion without adding anything concrete. It seems most people have accepted the 1-2g's, which I'm open to, I'd just like a real reason to drop the extra cash. Might do some more pubmed-ing later.

250mg TUDCA + 600mg NAC + 300mg Siliphos silymarin = should be good enough. I have done this before with methyl cycles and have bloods drawn prior and before cycle and my post liver values came back in range.

That's encouraging that the multi drug low dose TUDCA is effective for you.
I'm running: 500mg TUDCA, 600mg NAC, and 400mg SAMe for the first time, we'll see with post bloods if it works for me.

 

[BeastMode 1]

250mg TUDCA + 600mg NAC + 300mg Siliphos silymarin = should be good enough. I have done this before with methyl cycles and have bloods drawn prior and before cycle and my post liver values came back in range.

of course your Post cycle bloods would be fine.

the true test is how were your liver values "on cycle". --obviously, other things come into play to. like what compounds your taking and the dosages

 

[JudoJosh]

Skimmed the Houser thread, found this,


I respect what Houser has to say on the subject, but like I said before, the trial is not concluded, and he simply states an opinion without adding anything concrete. It seems most people have accepted the 1-2g's, which I'm open to, I'd just like a real reason to drop the extra cash. Might do some more pubmed-ing later.

With all due respect to dinoii for being an incredibly smart man, but that doesnt mean you have to accept every post he makes as fact.

That's encouraging that the multi drug low dose TUDCA is effective for you.
I'm running: 500mg TUDCA, 600mg NAC, and 400mg SAMe for the first time, we'll see with post bloods if it works for me.

if you decide to post the bloods please try and remember to link me the thread

of course your Post cycle bloods would be fine.

the true test is how were your liver values "on cycle". --obviously, other things come into play to. like what compounds your taking and the dosages

Bloods were drawn 2 days after my last dose of the methylated steroid. Do you really think the liver would just magically recover within 48hrs?

 

[BeastMode 1]

of course the liver will bounce back(unless its an extremely rare case of serious permanent liver damage)

what im asking you(judo), is:
how were your liver values "on cycle" with Tudca?
vs.
how were they "on cycle" without the use of Tudca?

...that would be the true comparison we would be interested in.

 

[rambofireball]

Agreed,
will do,
and beast I think you're confused bro. The longer you're putting your liver through stress, the worse it's going to get. getting liver values post-cycle is pretty standard.

 

[tnubs]

of course the liver will bounce back(unless its an extremely rare case of serious permanent liver damage)

yes, it will bounce back, but not in 48 hours. ive seen scattered bloodwork using 500mg tudca and it is promising. if your going to use gram dosages per day, your going to be better of money wise to go with UDCA.

 

[BeastMode 1]

Agreed,
will do,
and beast I think you're confused bro. The longer you're putting your liver through stress, the worse it's going to get. getting liver values post-cycle is pretty standard.

getting bloods(including testing liver enzymes) during cycle is standard as well. im not confused. u just dont get what im sayin. its alright though, ill just end on this note

when you get your "on cycle" bloods(which i recommend), let me know how your liver enzymes are doin'-(w/ the added support of Tudca)