4AD / 4OHT Cycle

[darius]

Would this be a good lean strength stack?
200-300mg 4AD
200mg 4OHT

I may be wrong, but perhaps the estrogen from the 4AD would be cancelled out by the anti-e features of 4OHT. Hair loss most likely woudn't be an issue either. Has anyone run a cycle like this? How were the gains? Side effects?

 

[dego]

Most only use enough OHT to keep estrogenic sides at bay. I like 75%/25% 4AD/OHT split, it keeps you dry and lean. And coincidently it has a anabolic/androgenic ratio very close to testosterone. ~91% anabolic ~99% androgenic. But if you want a dry cyle add more OHT.
Gains are pretty much equal to a straight run of 4AD minus the bloat. I always experience a big jump in strenght from 4AD but the dry gains seem to take a while to 'catch up'. I would stack something else to jump start things.

OHT has little in the way of side effect and is only MILDLY suppressive, but is pretty expensive.
Some have reported partial rebounding after being supressed and switching to only OHT. I will be reporting on this in a few weeks as this seems like the perfect way to finish off a cycle.

 

[the Cardinal]

Most only use enough OHT to keep estrogenic sides at bay. I like 75%/25% 4AD/OHT split, it keeps you dry and lean. And coincidently it has a anabolic/androgenic ratio very close to testosterone. ~91% anabolic ~99% androgenic. But if you want a dry cyle add more OHT.
Gains are pretty much equal to a straight run of 4AD minus the bloat. I always experience a big jump in strenght from 4AD but the dry gains seem to take a while to 'catch up'. I would stack something else to jump start things.

OHT has little in the way of side effect and is only MILDLY suppressive, but is pretty expensive.
Some have reported partial rebounding after being supressed and switching to only OHT. I will be reporting on this in a few weeks as this seems like the perfect way to finish off a cycle.

I concur (I like using that word). To the original poster, I believe you can get excellent results minus the water retention using 150 mg/day transdermal 1-test with the 4OHT, or using 4OHT alone at double your intended dose.

 

[darius]

I concur (I like using that word). To the original poster, I believe you can get excellent results minus the water retention using 150 mg/day transdermal 1-test with the 4OHT, or using 4OHT alone at double your intended dose.

So 150mg 1-Test/200mg 4OHT both applied transdermally?

Should there be much concern for hairloss with that low dose of 1-Test? What about from the 4OHT?

And also, what do you mean by excellent results? ~5-10 dry lbs. and strength increases for, say a 6 week cycle?

 

[Longdog]

Don't count on OHT for any strength or size gains. It's basically just a stacking agent to minimize the sides from other androgens, it's anabolic effects are very little.

If you are looking to gain strength and/or 5-10 dry lbs, it won't happen with low dose 4ad & OHT. No gains with 4ad are dry, I bloat even with OHT. I'd say run 4ad & with 1-test at 200-300mg each or so & throw a few grams OHT in there too. If you want it to be totally dry, run letro or dex with it. Custom now has both for cheap.

 

[BodyWizard]

Has anyone experimented with swapping formestane in for the 4oht?

 

[the Cardinal]

So 150mg 1-Test/200mg 4OHT both applied transdermally?

Should there be much concern for hairloss with that low dose of 1-Test? What about from the 4OHT?

And also, what do you mean by excellent results? ~5-10 dry lbs. and strength increases for, say a 6 week cycle?

I'm not prone to male pattern baldness, so I don't know whether low dose 1-Test is a legitimate concern. As for transdermal 4OHT vs. oral 4OHT, I am unconvinced that one is superior to the other. I know many prosteroid and prohormone users swear by transdermals, and in fact I've had good results with transdermal 1-Test, 4AD, and 19-Nor, but my experience with 4OHT leads me to believe a good oral delivery system is probably as effective as the transdermal homebrew I used at one point.

 

[Kellyb]

OHT has little in the way of side effect and is only MILDLY suppressive

I took it by itself transdermally just to see what it would do and it did shut me down. Didn't do much else besides make me feel tired as hell. Considering the length of time I took it the suppression wasn't as bad as 1-test but worse then 4-AD. L. Rea is full of **** whe he says this stuff is anti-suppressive and will increase LH etc.

 

[dego]

I took it by itself transdermally just to see what it would do and it did shut me down. Didn't do much else besides make me feel tired as hell. Considering the length of time I took it the suppression wasn't as bad as 1-test but worse then 4-AD. L. Rea is full of **** whe he says this stuff is anti-suppressive and will increase LH etc.

hmm you are the first I've seen to report this. Most tend to feel great on OHT and feel like they recover if only partially. Just out of curiosity how much did you take and for how long? Did you precede it or follow it with anything else? How bad would you rate the suppression?

Sorry for the thread hijack darius. My answer is, 4AD is great for strength but you will probably bloat some. I prefer 4AD base but most don't like ed injections. At 100mg ed my strength went up almost as much as on 75mg eod of tren (maybe 3/4). OHT is expensive and not good for strength gains but is a decent anabolic at higher doses. There are more cost effective compounds out there. I would probably run something like 4AD with M1,4 with letro to start and 4AD and 1-test to finish also with letro to stave off bloat. Or if you bloat with 1-test use M5aa to finish.

 

[BodyWizard]

Has anyone experimented with swapping formestane in for the 4oht?

*bump* for another stab at the answer.

Originally Posted by dego
Most only use enough OHT to keep estrogenic sides at bay. I like 75%/25% 4AD/OHT split, it...has a anabolic/androgenic ratio very close to testosterone. ~91% anabolic ~99% androgenic.

Given this, what is the anabolic / androgenic profile of 3x 4AD : 1x formestane?

Or: any guesses on the ratio of formestane to 4AD necessary to approximate that of T?

Given the cost difference between 4OHN & formestne, this would be good to know.

 

[dego]

*bump* for another stab at the answer.

Given this, what is the anabolic / androgenic profile of 3x 4AD : 1x formestane?

Or: any guesses on the ratio of formestane to 4AD necessary to approximate that of T?

Given the cost difference between 4OHN & formestne, this would be good to know.

I've never seen any a/a ratio numbers on formestane, but it does convert to OHT. I wouldn't think it would be a high conversion. This may be a better stack if estrogen is a big concern, but you would have to compensate by upping the dose a little for similar effect. If I had to take a shot in the dark I'd say 20%.

 

[BodyWizard]

Hey, dego - thanks!

shpongled over @ Bulk Nutrition, wrote "4-OHT itself is a weak inhibitor of the aromatase enzyme which converts testosterone into estrogen, and a metabolite, 4-hydroxyandrostenedione (formestane), is a potent aromatase inhibitor."

I took that to mean that 4OHT converted to formestane, but you say it's the other way around, - and I should up the proportion from 25% to 20%....

Okay, I'm officially confused!

 

[dego]

Hey, dego - thanks!

shpongled over @ Bulk Nutrition, wrote "4-OHT itself is a weak inhibitor of the aromatase enzyme which converts testosterone into estrogen, and a metabolite, 4-hydroxyandrostenedione (formestane), is a potent aromatase inhibitor."

I took that to mean that 4OHT converted to formestane, but you say it's the other way around, - and I should up the proportion from 25% to 20%....

Okay, I'm officially confused!

I don't think I've seen any documentation that shows that 4OHT inhibits aromatase, but I've suspected it and hope its true. 4OHT and formestane maybe convert back and forth but I've only seen formestane -> 4OHT. Formestane is documented as having very little anabolic/androgenic qualities this leads me to believe that it has little to no a/a functions on its own but converts to 4OHT enough so to measure some anabolic/androgenic qualities.

Depending on prices formestane/4AD may be more cost effective than 4AD/OHT. If you were planning on using 75mg 4AD and 25mg of OHT a day I would GUESS that you would need around 90~95mg 4AD and whatever the effective dosage of formestane is. This should be about the same but the 4AD/Formestane stack will be more androgenic by about 25%.

 

[ripped22]

darius, use 1-test/4ad/4oht in the following ratio

1/2/1 your gains will be dry, strength will be high and libido
through the roof!

 

[milwood]

ripped22-that sounds like a solid mix to me. I think I'll use it next time. Thnk it would be overkill to mix MDien or M4OHN in as well?