natural vs. roids in middle weights

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by supraseed48 View Post
    Test or no test women are not genetically predisposed to be as muscular as men. Genetics has as much to do with building muscle as roids ever will. That topic seems to have missed this thread completely..
    So then it would seem that everyone has a genetic limit. A natural limit and a enhanced limit. Steroids can push the limits but not exceed it and that will soon be lost if you stop taking the roids. So then what determines the limits and how do you overcome these limits


  2. Quote Originally Posted by evodrag View Post
    Steroids do not cause cellular division. HGH can. Steroids simply inlarge the muscle cells.

    As for powerlifting 160lbs natty will not compare much to 160lbs steroid user if they both have similar genetics and lifting history. Like others mentioned muscle fiber contractility is increased when using gear. Thats why people gain so much strength before the weight comes on.

    Bodybuilders will benefit from gear for so many reasons. Men carry less bodyfat than women(hard to tell with all the fatty in america) because of test/estrogen ratios. There have been plenty of medical studies that link taking high dose test/anavar as being fat shedding. You also hold onto more muscle cutting. The benefits are far outway any legal compounds, what a joke they are. Ive wasted a lot of money like most have. So a 160 juicer will come in looking more shredded, harder and less BF% if they are eating/training right.

    Ive ran some prohormones and I never hold onto much of the gains. I think there too short of a cycle to put on muscle to keep. As far as longer injectables you really hold the gains a lot better. But research more for yourself. Thats the only way you ll find out
    So if you dont maintain the gains then what is the purpose? So after the cycle if you lose all the you have gained nothing.
    Or if you have to keep cycling to maintain the gians
    I always thought their was a certain amount of gains that you make with the juice and when you stopped you would lose much of the gains but that their wqs a certain amount that you would be able to maintain cleanly
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    I have no enemies. My friends intensely despise me.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn View Post
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    LMAO!

    Look man, in a bodybuilding contest 2 people with the same structure weight and body composition the most balance and aesthetic will win. THe bodybuilding show is to display the results of the work and the comparison is done after the work is already put in. At that point the natural and anhanced athletes are on a level playing feild. However there is NOTHING level about the methods they used to get there.

    Consider this, a natural athlete competing at 160 probably started out with a decent amount of mass and worked really hard for several years, doing everything damn perfectly. The 160 lb guy on AAS could have easily started out as a 135 lb bean pole only a year or two before, used gear and ate everything he wanted to bulk up while on them and then dieted back down with other AAS that help him not lose any muscle or even better, GROW up into the show if done right.

    So who has the advantage here? Obviously the guy on gear does. Don't get me wrong and think that guys on gear do not work or diet as hard as naturals. Most of them do if not harder, but there is a lot more leniency to be had with diet, and training for someone on gear to get the same results that a natural guy gets being extremely strict. On top of that A natural athlete at 160 would more than likely end up competing in a higher weight class if he got on gear.

    As far as women go regardless of their size they can not be compared accurately to a man. The bone structure is completely different between the two, creating very differently shaped bodies. Women have proportionately wider hips and smaller waist lines which really changes the appearance of the back, and or legs. It is not that a woman who is 5'6 and 185lbs is not as big as a guy who is 5'6 and 185 lbs, it is that they do not have the same structures to compare against one another.

    You seem to be making a lot of assumptions based on what I don't exactly know. I TRULY hope you are not considering running ANY AAS until you have a real understanding of the subject.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
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  5. Quote Originally Posted by tom1468 View Post
    So if you dont maintain the gains then what is the purpose? So after the cycle if you lose all the you have gained nothing.
    Or if you have to keep cycling to maintain the gians
    I always thought their was a certain amount of gains that you make with the juice and when you stopped you would lose much of the gains but that their wqs a certain amount that you would be able to maintain cleanly
    The article David referenced is about strength... The specific question the OP asked regarding it was about the muscle pennation lasting, not whether or not the added size sticks around.

    Also someone mentioned about the reason for PCT and they thought the reason was to bring natural test back online and why do it if natty test does not go away. Well the person that spurred that was just saying that your natural testosterone production does not stop immediately upon first injection. The HPTA has to see the increased androgens for a little bit before it starts adjusting testosterone production to get back into homeostasis. The PCT is at the end where the HPTA has already had the time to adjust and has stopped or drastically slowed its own testosterone production. An adequate PCT is done to quickly increase natural testosterone production. That will limit the loss of any new muscle that was built. SO yes you do keep quite a bit of the muscle gained on cycle if you have a good PCT.

    FYI a good PCT should not only contain a SERM but some type of anti-cortisol product as well if maintaining the gains is important to you. When the body realizes there are no androgens it goes into a stress mode creating a lot of cortisol, this eats muscle like nobodies business. Add that to not having androgens on tap and you have a perfect storm to lose the muscle you just gained.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
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    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    LMAO!

    Look man, in a bodybuilding contest 2 people with the same structure weight and body composition the most balance and aesthetic will win. THe bodybuilding show is to display the results of the work and the comparison is done after the work is already put in. At that point the natural and anhanced athletes are on a level playing feild. However there is NOTHING level about the methods they used to get there.

    Consider this, a natural athlete competing at 160 probably started out with a decent amount of mass and worked really hard for several years, doing everything damn perfectly. The 160 lb guy on AAS could have easily started out as a 135 lb bean pole only a year or two before, used gear and ate everything he wanted to bulk up while on them and then dieted back down with other AAS that help him not lose any muscle or even better, GROW up into the show if done right.

    So who has the advantage here? Obviously the guy on gear does. Don't get me wrong and think that guys on gear do not work or diet as hard as naturals. Most of them do if not harder, but there is a lot more leniency to be had with diet, and training for someone on gear to get the same results that a natural guy gets being extremely strict. On top of that A natural athlete at 160 would more than likely end up competing in a higher weight class if he got on gear.

    As far as women go regardless of their size they can not be compared accurately to a man. The bone structure is completely different between the two, creating very differently shaped bodies. Women have proportionately wider hips and smaller waist lines which really changes the appearance of the back, and or legs. It is not that a woman who is 5'6 and 185lbs is not as big as a guy who is 5'6 and 185 lbs, it is that they do not have the same structures to compare against one another.

    You seem to be making a lot of assumptions based on what I don't exactly know. I TRULY hope you are not considering running ANY AAS until you have a real understanding of the subject.
    Not meaning to make assumptions.... i just question everything.... i mean not to offend
    As far as me jumping on the juice? I have no plan to do that for several reasons....1) i am a truck driver and have to take random drug screens.....2) i clearly wouldnt know what to do......3)i do not think i have maxed out what is possible natural....i get kind of lazy....... but none the less it is a subject that is interesting......

  7. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    The article David referenced is about strength... The specific question the OP asked regarding it was about the muscle pennation lasting, not whether or not the added size sticks around.

    Also someone mentioned about the reason for PCT and they thought the reason was to bring natural test back online and why do it if natty test does not go away. Well the person that spurred that was just saying that your natural testosterone production does not stop immediately upon first injection. The HPTA has to see the increased androgens for a little bit before it starts adjusting testosterone production to get back into homeostasis. The PCT is at the end where the HPTA has already had the time to adjust and has stopped or drastically slowed its own testosterone production. An adequate PCT is done to quickly increase natural testosterone production. That will limit the loss of any new muscle that was built. SO yes you do keep quite a bit of the muscle gained on cycle if you have a good PCT.

    FYI a good PCT should not only contain a SERM but some type of anti-cortisol product as well if maintaining the gains is important to you. When the body realizes there are no androgens it goes into a stress mode creating a lot of cortisol, this eats muscle like nobodies business. Add that to not having androgens on tap and you have a perfect storm to lose the muscle you just gained.
    I am the op. I understand that i have drifted with the topic on this thread but in my defense it all of your faults. You guys keep saying things that peak my interest ....lol......also thank for this well thought out post...it explains allot

  8. Quote Originally Posted by tom1468 View Post
    Not meaning to make assumptions.... i just question everything.... i mean not to offend
    As far as me jumping on the juice? I have no plan to do that for several reasons....1) i am a truck driver and have to take random drug screens.....2) i clearly wouldnt know what to do......3)i do not think i have maxed out what is possible natural....i get kind of lazy....... but none the less it is a subject that is interesting......
    No offense taken, I assumed you were not that familiar with them in the first place due to the conclusions you had drawn.

    As far as random drug testing, places of employment do not test for steroids. They test for the recreational drugs like amphetamines, hallucinagens, barbituates, opiates but they do not test for steroids. The companies that insure them do not see too many steroid related injuries, so they don't test for them and make no mistake that is why the testing is done now for the most part, because the insurance companies want/need to limit their exposure to high risk people and situations before insuring a person or company.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html
  9. Exclamation


    Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    No offense taken, I assumed you were not that familiar with them in the first place due to the conclusions you had drawn.

    As far as random drug testing, places of employment do not test for steroids. They test for the recreational drugs like amphetamines, hallucinagens, barbituates, opiates but they do not test for steroids. The companies that insure them do not see too many steroid related injuries, so they don't test for them and make no mistake that is why the testing is done now for the most part, because the insurance companies want/need to limit their exposure to high risk people and situations before insuring a person or company.
    Good to know that in case i at some point change my mind.
    Isnt it always about the insurance companies, you elect them and they control them.....but that is politics

  10. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    The article David referenced is about strength... The specific question the OP asked regarding it was about the muscle pennation lasting, not whether or not the added size sticks around.

    Also someone mentioned about the reason for PCT and they thought the reason was to bring natural test back online and why do it if natty test does not go away. Well the person that spurred that was just saying that your natural testosterone production does not stop immediately upon first injection. The HPTA has to see the increased androgens for a little bit before it starts adjusting testosterone production to get back into homeostasis. The PCT is at the end where the HPTA has already had the time to adjust and has stopped or drastically slowed its own testosterone production. An adequate PCT is done to quickly increase natural testosterone production. That will limit the loss of any new muscle that was built. SO yes you do keep quite a bit of the muscle gained on cycle if you have a good PCT.

    FYI a good PCT should not only contain a SERM but some type of anti-cortisol product as well if maintaining the gains is important to you. When the body realizes there are no androgens it goes into a stress mode creating a lot of cortisol, this eats muscle like nobodies business. Add that to not having androgens on tap and you have a perfect storm to lose the muscle you just gained.
    thats wherre a lot of people go wrong..i for one didnt know this for my first ph run..but i got lucky and didnt spike cortisol because i only lost a few pounds..very important though

  11. I think in the posts you see about genetics, on any board in general, I think many people forget about a few simple facts. These would be that your genetics will determine your bone and muscle structure and placement. Beyond this, growth is going to be controlled by however much test, HGH, LH, etc your genetics decide that your endocrine system needs to release at specific points (early childhood, puberty). So if you think about it you essentially change your genetic "plan" when you take steroids, HGH, or IGF-1.

    I know there is probably much more to this, but at a very basic dumbhead level this is pretty much it. Might be something that I erroneously said hopefully not.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by SuperPro
    I think in the posts you see about genetics, on any board in general, I think many people forget about a few simple facts. These would be that your genetics will determine your bone and muscle structure and placement. Beyond this, growth is going to be controlled by however much test, HGH, LH, etc your genetics decide that your endocrine system needs to release at specific points (early childhood, puberty). So if you think about it you essentially change your genetic "plan" when you take steroids, HGH, or IGF-1.

    I know there is probably much more to this, but at a very basic dumbhead level this is pretty much it. Might be something that I erroneously said hopefully not.
    Some guys are genetically pre-disposed to have more muscle than others, whether it be overall build or specific muscle groups. Drugs or no drugs. Take calves for example some guys can grow them, some struggle to on or off cycle. Can be said for any muscle group. AAS do not level the playing field of genetics although it does close the gap somewhat I do agree.
    "Liver stress is weakness leaving the body!!"

  13. Quote Originally Posted by machorox123 View Post
    thats wherre a lot of people go wrong..i for one didnt know this for my first ph run..but i got lucky and didnt spike cortisol because i only lost a few pounds..very important though
    and you know this how?
    I have no enemies. My friends intensely despise me.

  14. Myostatin is the limiting factor in muscle growth. That is why people or animals with a myostatin deficiency grow to excessive musculature without the use of steroids. Like the Belgian Blue or this whippet or for that matter this little boy, who simply is not old enough for testosterone to be a factor. Myostatin inhibits growth, even when on gear, myostatin levels will slow or even stop your growth at the end of a cycle.

    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
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  15. That kid has got to be photo shop...
    "Liver stress is weakness leaving the body!!"

  16. Shall we also point out that everyone has a "genetic barrier" which will at one point or another make that individual get to a genetic "maximum" or huge plateaus to go over and anabolics help them get over said plateau?
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  17. Quote Originally Posted by David Dunn
    and you know this how?
    Okay maybe i did but i didnt loose a lot of muscle post cycle

  18. Quote Originally Posted by supraseed48 View Post
    That kid has got to be photo shop...
    The kid suffers from a condition that allows his muscle to grow unabated. You can find multiple pics of him so if it is photoshopped it is done everywhere. Pictures of him doing things a kid his age should not be able to do.

    I find it interesting that out of those 3 pics the one you thought was photo shopped was the closest thing to looking like it should and not the whippet or the cow.

    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  19. muscular weight is often distributed differently when you are on, muscles are fuller...a 160lb guy who was "on" would look 185, while the 160lb guy who was not would look 160. Thats the difference

  20. Quote Originally Posted by GeraldNY181 View Post
    muscular weight is often distributed differently when you are on, muscles are fuller...a 160lb guy who was "on" would look 185, while the 160lb guy who was not would look 160. Thats the difference
    Interesting thought process. There are holes in it though. You are forgetting there are tons of ways to increase your insulin sensitivity naturally. Not just being on gear, it does enhance the Glut4 activity, however so does depleting your carbs for a while then reintroducing them. If they both have a good peak week plan they would both come in very full, and very shredded.
    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html

  21. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73

    The kid suffers from a condition that allows his muscle to grow unabated. You can find multiple pics of him so if it is photoshopped it is done everywhere. Pictures of him doing things a kid his age should not be able to do.

    I find it interesting that out of those 3 pics the one you thought was photo shopped was the closest thing to looking like it should and not the whippet or the cow.
    It's just that the head is much larger than the body. Like the body was that of a shrunk down adolescent. Seen those done b4, but ill take ur word on it..
    "Liver stress is weakness leaving the body!!"

  22. Quote Originally Posted by MrKleen73 View Post
    Myostatin is the limiting factor in muscle growth. That is why people or animals with a myostatin deficiency grow to excessive musculature without the use of steroids. Like the Belgian Blue or this whippet or for that matter this little boy, who simply is not old enough for testosterone to be a factor. Myostatin inhibits growth, even when on gear, myostatin levels will slow or even stop your growth at the end of a cycle.
    So why don't they just make myostatin inhibitors?

  23. Quote Originally Posted by SuperPro

    So why don't they just make myostatin inhibitors?
    Because it is not a simple thing to accomplish. When they have the ability to make a true myostatin inhibitor you will surely know about it because it will be hyoooge news, literally.
    ADVANCED MUSCLE SCIENCE
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  24. Quote Originally Posted by CopyCat View Post
    Because it is not a simple thing to accomplish. When they have the ability to make a true myostatin inhibitor you will surely know about it because it will be hyoooge news, literally.
    Would probably be dangerous anyway. People use HGH to get huge nowadays but I believe it is much more dangerous than conventional steroids, though the gains are obviously on a whole different scale.

  25. They do have some myostatin inhibitors, research companies carry them. Not sure how well they work. They already know how to make them because they have made myostatin inhibitors and tested them on mice with insane results. Here is a picture of mice treated with follistatin which can be purchased from multiple research companies, but is considered not for human consumption so they are legal to by but not use... Most people who use them use them for about 2 weeks at the end of the cycle when myostatin levels are high and slowing growth quite a bit.

    Now how legit the Follistatin that the research companies sell I don't know. You would have to find on that others had good results with but they are available.

    Live Hard, Laugh Hard, Love Hard and Heal Fast! - KLEEN
    Current Training Log -
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/workout-logs/276206-kleen-strong-body.html
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