General question about taking a PH for the first time...

[SpicedCider]

I have randomly heard that after you've run your first cycle of PH's/steroids, you'll never be able to gain muscle naturally after that -- in other words, your ability to make gains will forever hinge on you taking another PH/steroid. Is this true?

 

[live to lift]

I have randomly heard that after you've run your first cycle of PH's/steroids, you'll never be able to gain muscle naturally after that -- in other words, your ability to make gains will forever hinge on you taking another PH/steroid. Is this true?

No however possible if you didnt cycle off properly and destroyed your natty test production. What people tend to mean by this is that the rate of natural muscle growth while compared to anabolics is alot slower leading you to want to cycle another ph and or steroid rather than being natural.

 

[SpicedCider]

Thanks. This might sound like a crazy question, but how much steroids would a "normal" person have to take to get as huge as Jay Cutler or Gunter Schlierkamp? Wouldn't some people die from taking all that?

 

[Airborne42]

Thanks. This might sound like a crazy question, but how much steroids would a "normal" person have to take to get as huge as Jay Cutler or Gunter Schlierkamp? Wouldn't some people die from taking all that?

Lots... That's their job tho. Their life revolves around... Building Muscle! Roids, the best diet and science, drs, rest, training and genetics. It's not just roids

 

[SpicedCider]

Man, it seems like it would be so amazing to have that much size and strength, LOL. While I'm on the subject, what is generally considered to be the best PH to take for pure mass gains? Are there any compounds that are mild enough in terms of side-effects to run several cycles of per year? Would this be too unsafe to even be considered?

 

[Airborne42]

Man, it seems like it would be so amazing to have that much size and strength, LOL. While I'm on the subject, what is generally considered to be the best PH to take for pure mass gains? Are there any compounds that are mild enough in terms of side-effects to run several cycles of per year? Would this be too unsafe to even be considered?

How old are you? Stats

 

[Ken Powers]

Thanks. This might sound like a crazy question, but how much steroids would a "normal" person have to take to get as huge as Jay Cutler or Gunter Schlierkamp? Wouldn't some people die from taking all that?

You've got to keep in mind, like airborne was saying, guys like Jay and just about all of the pros, in addition to taking massive amounts of steroids, perfect diet, and perfect training, they also all possess freak genetics. The genetic part is just one of the pieces that makes them so good at what they do. So to your answer your question, I'm not sure that a "normal person" could achieve the size/physique of the majority of the pro bb'ers even with all of the steroids in the world.

 

[SpicedCider]

How old are you? Stats

I'm 24 (25 in January). My stats are actually rather pathetic; in 2006, I tore the labrums in both of my shoulders and was never really able to make much progress simply because it hurt my shoulders too much to lift/pull any "real" weight. But 3-4 weeks ago, I started doing physical therapy/rehab exercises on my own using the Freemotion cable machine at the gym and have, for the first time in 4-5 years, been able to start increasing weights for all exercises. It seems like my lift amounts are increasing as the weight I'm able to lift for the shoulder rehab exercises increases.

Since the amount of progress I can ultimately make is going to be limited by having torn labrums (getting MRI's alone would cost ~$1250 for EACH shoulder, so surgery isn't really an option right now), I considered taking PH's/steroids to enable me to essentially make the most (in terms of gains) with what I'm physically capable of lifting. Even though the physical therapy exercises are definitely helping, I know that at some point, I will hit a "wall."

Are there any PH's that are typically taken by individuals whose goals are centered squarely on gaining mass? I know this probably has to sound crazy to most you, but strength gains aren't that big of a deal to me (and I'm used to being weak, anyways); I primarily want to build muscle.

 

[Husker89]

10-20 years straight of HGH peptides steroids and LOT AND LOTS of insulin

Thanks. This might sound like a crazy question, but how much steroids would a "normal" person have to take to get as huge as Jay Cutler or Gunter Schlierkamp? Wouldn't some people die from taking all that?

 

[Husker89]

steroids might be able to heal your injuries, thats what they were orginally made for, i would be interseted to see if 3 weeks of dianabol or test or whatever would heal your shoulder, u wouldnt workout BTW.

I'm 24 (25 in January). My stats are actually rather pathetic; in 2006, I tore the labrums in both of my shoulders and was never really able to make much progress simply because it hurt my shoulders too much to lift/pull any "real" weight. But 3-4 weeks ago, I started doing physical therapy/rehab exercises on my own using the Freemotion cable machine at the gym and have, for the first time in 4-5 years, been able to start increasing weights for all exercises. It seems like my lift amounts are increasing as the weight I'm able to lift for the shoulder rehab exercises increases.

Since the amount of progress I can ultimately make is going to be limited by having torn labrums (getting MRI's alone would cost ~$1250 for EACH shoulder, so surgery isn't really an option right now), I considered taking PH's/steroids to enable me to essentially make the most (in terms of gains) with what I'm physically capable of lifting. Even though the physical therapy exercises are definitely helping, I know that at some point, I will hit a "wall."

Are there any PH's that are typically taken by individuals whose goals are centered squarely on gaining mass? I know this probably has to sound crazy to most you, but strength gains aren't that big of a deal to me (and I'm used to being weak, anyways); I primarily want to build muscle.

 

[Ken Powers]

Are there any PH's that are typically taken by individuals whose goals are centered squarely on gaining mass? I know this probably has to sound crazy to most you, but strength gains aren't that big of a deal to me (and I'm used to being weak, anyways); I primarily want to build muscle.

In my experience with M1,4ADD, that was a compound that put a lot of size of me very quickly, and it actually wasn't as wet as everybody seems to think, although I'm pretty sure diet has a lot to do with it. It was also very nice on my joints, which I think is something that would obviously benefit you in this situation.

I've also seen SD/M-MLG as a mass gaining cycle, although I have no experience with either of those compounds.

 

[Husker89]

M1,4ADD converts to methandrostenolone so should be wet, either way ru nsomething wet or 19nor (tren/deca) for the shoulder.

In my experience with M1,4ADD, that was a compound that put a lot of size of me very quickly, and it actually wasn't as wet as everybody seems to think, although I'm pretty sure diet has a lot to do with it. It was also very nice on my joints, which I think is something that would obviously benefit you in this situation.

I've also seen SD/M-MLG as a mass gaining cycle, although I have no experience with either of those compounds.

 

[Jahcuree]

I'm 24 (25 in January). My stats are actually rather pathetic; in 2006, I tore the labrums in both of my shoulders and was never really able to make much progress simply because it hurt my shoulders too much to lift/pull any "real" weight. But 3-4 weeks ago, I started doing physical therapy/rehab exercises on my own using the Freemotion cable machine at the gym and have, for the first time in 4-5 years, been able to start increasing weights for all exercises. It seems like my lift amounts are increasing as the weight I'm able to lift for the shoulder rehab exercises increases.

Since the amount of progress I can ultimately make is going to be limited by having torn labrums (getting MRI's alone would cost ~$1250 for EACH shoulder, so surgery isn't really an option right now), I considered taking PH's/steroids to enable me to essentially make the most (in terms of gains) with what I'm physically capable of lifting. Even though the physical therapy exercises are definitely helping, I know that at some point, I will hit a "wall."

Are there any PH's that are typically taken by individuals whose goals are centered squarely on gaining mass? I know this probably has to sound crazy to most you, but strength gains aren't that big of a deal to me (and I'm used to being weak, anyways); I primarily want to build muscle.

If I were you I would avoid any PH altogether with some severe injuries like that. Until the were healed at least. Get healed up, also look into some healing peptides that seem very promising in research subjects. Try looking into TB-500

 

[Ken Powers]

If I were you I would avoid any PH altogether with some severe injuries like that. Until the were healed at least. Get healed up, also look into some healing peptides that seem very promising in research subjects. Try looking into TB-500

Even considering the advice I already gave, honestly this is probably your best option. Going on a ph/ds cycle will, while adding some size/mass to your frame, really only encourage you to lift heavier weights than your body should be handling right now.

Stay on the cable/band exercises for your shoulder health, and continue making steady progress until you get closer to healed up.

Be careful with increasing the weight on the pt/rehab exercises though, while some of them are more geared towards strengthening the small stabilizing muscles in your shoulders, many of them aim to strengthen tendons and ligaments, which is not something you want to keep adding weight on to.

 

[SpicedCider]

Even considering the advice I already gave, honestly this is probably your best option. Going on a ph/ds cycle will, while adding some size/mass to your frame, really only encourage you to lift heavier weights than your body should be handling right now.

Stay on the cable/band exercises for your shoulder health, and continue making steady progress until you get closer to healed up.

Be careful with increasing the weight on the pt/rehab exercises though, while some of them are more geared towards strengthening the small stabilizing muscles in your shoulders, many of them aim to strengthen tendons and ligaments, which is not something you want to keep adding weight on to.

Yeah, I noticed that most physical therapists seem to advocate doing them with basic resistance bands (of course, this is all based on what I see watching YouTube videos, LOL).

I actually had an appointment a couple months ago with a local orthopedic surgeon who specializes in shoulders, and he actually said that, even though labrum tears won't heal on their own (the labrum is basically the cartilage on the outside of the rotator cuff), the vast majority of patients find adequate relief through a physical therapy regimen. Conversely, he said that even patients whose tears are too severe to be "fixed" through PT find that surgery doesn't have that high of a success rate. So you could say it's a case of being stuck between a rock and a hard place.

From talking with the doctor, it seems like the primary objective of doing the physical therapy exercises is to build-up the muscles in the shoulder (as you mentioned in your post above) so that they can take weight being pulled/lifted off the labrum (I.e., utilize the shoulder muscles to play the role of the labrum).

So that's the problem -- it probably isn't something that can ever actually be healed; instead, it seems like my only options are to either continue my home-brewed PT program or risk getting surgery that may or may not end up making a positive difference.

Either way, I guess it won't hurt to do some research on M1,4ADD. If there are any other steroids that may help heal my labrums AND help me build muscle, I'm definitely open to considering almost anything at this point.

 

[Husker89]

DUDE Y DO U THINK STEROIDS BUILD MUSCLE??? cuz they help you heal. Do a 2 week cycle without training or really really PT training and i guarantee your shoulder heals. Im talked to doctors and patients about this and it works remarkably.

Yeah, I noticed that most physical therapists seem to advocate doing them with basic resistance bands (of course, this is all based on what I see watching YouTube videos, LOL).

I actually had an appointment a couple months ago with a local orthopedic surgeon who specializes in shoulders, and he actually said that, even though labrum tears won't heal on their own (the labrum is basically the cartilage on the outside of the rotator cuff), the vast majority of patients find adequate relief through a physical therapy regimen. Conversely, he said that even patients whose tears are too severe to be "fixed" through PT find that surgery doesn't have that high of a success rate. So you could say it's a case of being stuck between a rock and a hard place.

From talking with the doctor, it seems like the primary objective of doing the physical therapy exercises is to build-up the muscles in the shoulder (as you mentioned in your post above) so that they can take weight being pulled/lifted off the labrum (I.e., utilize the shoulder muscles to play the role of the labrum).

So that's the problem -- it probably isn't something that can ever actually be healed; instead, it seems like my only options are to either continue my home-brewed PT program or risk getting surgery that may or may not end up making a positive difference.

Either way, I guess it won't hurt to do some research on M1,4ADD. If there are any other steroids that may help heal my labrums AND help me build muscle, I'm definitely open to considering almost anything at this point.

 

[Ken Powers]

DUDE Y DO U THINK STEROIDS BUILD MUSCLE??? cuz they help you heal. Do a 2 week cycle without training or really really PT training and i guarantee your shoulder heals. Im talked to doctors and patients about this and it works remarkably.

Maybe referring to Corticosteroids? I realize there may be some overlap between AAS used for bodybuilding and anti-inflam/cortisone type steroids, but to be completely honest it sounds like you're grouping them all together.

http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/corticosteroid-injections-for-rotator-cuff-disorders

Hey man if I'm completely wrong here I'm ready to let the hate rain, but I'd hate to have this guy juicing up on test, deca, and dbol to try to heal up a rotator cuff injury if its the different class of steroids you're thinking about.

 

[Ken Powers]

@Husker. The only reason I thought of that is because I just finished up a 10-day doctor prescribed medrol (oral methylprednisolone) regimen to help heal a back injury. Just the two week time frame you gave and the whole steroid-healing subject here got me thinking.

 

[Husker89]

medrol is a cortico steroid that will work but so will something like 2 shots of deca. But good point for pointing that key difference out.

@Husker. The only reason I thought of that is because I just finished up a 10-day doctor prescribed medrol (oral methylprednisolone) regimen to help heal a back injury. Just the two week time frame you gave and the whole steroid-healing subject here got me thinking.

 

[Husker89]

i would rep u again but they wont let me yet lol. Ya ive heard of medrol healing stories but this doctor told me that if youve never taken steroids it will work way better but will work either way but to use 2-4 shots of decda 1 a week and you eat high protein and it should heal.

Maybe referring to Corticosteroids? I realize there may be some overlap between AAS used for bodybuilding and anti-inflam/cortisone type steroids, but to be completely honest it sounds like you're grouping them all together.

http://www.webmd.com/a-to-z-guides/corticosteroid-injections-for-rotator-cuff-disorders

Hey man if I'm completely wrong here I'm ready to let the hate rain, but I'd hate to have this guy juicing up on test, deca, and dbol to try to heal up a rotator cuff injury if its the different class of steroids you're thinking about.

 

[Axillist]

Great Advice Ken! I would have said the same If I was here instead of sleeping! I have also been looking into Ostarine/Mk-2866/Osta Rx for the same purpose of adding muscle and healing the joint. There are compounds out there that can help you slightly but you don't want any steroid/pro hormone that is going to add serious bulk. If you eventually do go the prohormone route go for a mild compound.

 

[SpicedCider]

Appreciate all the advice that has been given in this thread.

So it sounds like taking a wetter compound such as M1,4ADD, Deca, or something less conventional such as Ostarine/Osta Rx would be my best bet. Out of all the "wet" PH's out there, which one would you guys consider to be the absolute BEST ONE to take for gaining mass? It sounds like it's between M1,4ADD and Deca/Nandrolone. I did some research last night, and since Deca lacks methylation and is therefore less harsh in terms of liver harshness, I'm leaning more towards that over M1,4ADD -- IF I decide to take a PH.

I am especially interested in Osta Rx; I did some research on that and Ostarine itself but was unable to find much definitive information regarding the amount of gains that can be expected to be made on it (e.g., x - x pounds per month). Also, with it being technically an experimental drug, is there any information available on long or even short-term side effects?

And since it affects bone tissue, is there a chance that it could adversely cause bone cancer or lead to the creation of bone spurs? I don't want to sound ridiculous, but I do want to make all the necessary considerations.

 

[Ken Powers]

Appreciate all the advice that has been given in this thread.

So it sounds like taking a wetter compound such as M1,4ADD, Deca, or something less conventional such as Ostarine/Osta Rx would be my best bet. Out of all the "wet" PH's out there, which one would you guys consider to be the absolute BEST ONE to take for gaining mass? It sounds like it's between M1,4ADD and Deca/Nandrolone. I did some research last night, and since Deca lacks methylation and is therefore less harsh in terms of liver harshness, I'm leaning more towards that over M1,4ADD -- IF I decide to take a PH.

I am especially interested in Osta Rx; I did some research on that and Ostarine itself but was unable to find much definitive information regarding the amount of gains that can be expected to be made on it (e.g., x - x pounds per month). Also, with it being technically an experimental drug, is there any information available on long or even short-term side effects?

And since it affects bone tissue, is there a chance that it could adversely cause bone cancer or lead to the creation of bone spurs? I don't want to sound ridiculous, but I do want to make all the necessary considerations.

Deca is probably gonna be better for mass gain. I'm sure you already know but from the wording of that last post I couldn't quite tell, Deca is an illegal AAS, and M1,4ADD is a legal ph/ds.

 

[SpicedCider]

Oh yeah, I'm just talking hypothetically at this point. Since I practically never drink alcohol and don't usually take any other drugs (maybe the occasional ibuprofen), maybe the the M1,4ADD being methylated wouldn't be such a big deal...

I have also done a bit of reading on TB-500 and am really intrigued... it might be worth taking that just to see if it can substantially (or even moderately) heal my labral tears.

 

[Jahcuree]

Oh yeah, I'm just talking hypothetically at this point. Since I practically never drink alcohol and don't usually take any other drugs (maybe the occasional ibuprofen), maybe the the M1,4ADD being methylated wouldn't be such a big deal...

I have also done a bit of reading on TB-500 and am really intrigued... it might be worth taking that just to see if it can substantially (or even moderately) heal my labral tears.

Ive head some crazy results from that tb, and its pretty inexpensive too. Peptides are relatively safe also so i would def keep an eye on that one.

p.s. beware of dat der deca dick ive heard so much about if your leaning that way.

 

[SpicedCider]

Ive head some crazy results from that tb, and its pretty inexpensive too. Peptides are relatively safe also so i would def keep an eye on that one.

p.s. beware of dat der deca dick ive heard so much about if your leaning that way.

LOL, yeah, I've read about the Deca dick. I definitely don't have any desire to experience that, but I don't have a girlfriend right now and probably won't have one for a while, so at this point, I can honestly say that I'd be willing to put up with that side effect for the prize of gaining xx pounds of muscle. Just out of curiosity, for those of you who have run cycles of Deca, how much weight gain you realistically expect to gain through a cycle of Deca followed through with a proper PCT?

 

[Ken Powers]

I wanna say that adequately dosed Cabergoline will tell that deca dick to suck it (since isn't deca dick from high prolactin levels?)

Just a quick look at that TB-500 (more research to come later), I'm considering picking some up just to have on hand in case of a future injury, sh*t looks magical!

Back to the M1,4ADD for a quick second, some TUDCA/Hawthorn Berry/and some kinda low dosed forma product and you won't have to worry about it at all

 

[SpicedCider]

Speaking of Deca (am I allowed to ask about this? -- don't want to break any rules), what is your opinion on products like AMS's DecaVol? Is this close enough to being "the real deal" to warrant a purchase?

 

[Ken Powers]

Speaking of Deca (am I allowed to ask about this? -- don't want to break any rules), what is your opinion on products like AMS's DecaVol? Is this close enough to being "the real deal" to warrant a purchase?

I could very well be missing the boat completely, but for me its not even close enough (IMO obviously) to warrant me reading all the way through the product description.

As far as rules on illegal AAS here, my understanding is talk about them as much as you'd like. No asking for sources or source checks, or mentioning prices of any illegal products/compounds. DecaVol is legal so you're good to go there.

 

[Ken Powers]

All that being said, I have no experience with any AMS products, I have seen their 4-ad or 1-andro being high dosed as "test bases," unsure about how well they worked as such.

 

[Airborne42]

All that being said, I have no experience with any AMS products, I have seen their 4-ad or 1-andro being high dosed as "test bases," unsure about how well they worked as such.

4-ad great test base

 

[Ken Powers]

4-ad great test base

Good to hear from somebody trusted on here, how high did you run it/what with?

 

[Airborne42]

Normal dose. Transform sd

 

[SpicedCider]

Thanks for the info. I did some brief research on M1,4ADD, and I was amazed to read various logs from individuals who sounded like "real people" (I.e., not shills) who gained anywhere from ~15 - 22 pounds or even more on a single cycle. Man... the thought of gaining that much muscle (and some water weight, understandably) just sounds unreal.

Of course, the other major consideration is prostate issues; my dad (early 50's) had prostate cancer and just had his prostate surgically removed the other day, and I know that PH's and steroids in general can cause prostate issues... but hopefully not M1,4ADD!

 

[Ken Powers]

Normal dose. Transform sd

great to hear, that definitely makes it a financially viable option for me now. sweet!

 

[SpicedCider]

I've done more research on M1,4ADD, and from what I've read, it sounds like it's one of the least liver-toxic methylated PH's. Is this an accurate assessment? I was just reading through the thread posted by the guy who took SD and damaged his liver (as diagnosed by a physician), and I definitely don't want to end up in a similar predicament.

Also, I read that, with M1,4ADD being a wetter compound, there's a higher risk of the incidence of estrogen-related side effects such as gyno. Obviously, I have never taken PH's before, but I would hate to give myself my first (and a permanent) case of gyno that would require surgery to mitigate. In a few of the logs I read, a product like Erase was taken during their cycles; is this absolutely necessary? Would something like Erase need to be taken during PCT (in addition to Nolva)?

 

[Jahcuree]

I've done more research on M1,4ADD, and from what I've read, it sounds like it's one of the least liver-toxic methylated PH's. Is this an accurate assessment? I was just reading through the thread posted by the guy who took SD and damaged his liver (as diagnosed by a physician), and I definitely don't want to end up in a similar predicament.

Also, I read that, with M1,4ADD being a wetter compound, there's a higher risk of the incidence of estrogen-related side effects such as gyno. Obviously, I have never taken PH's before, but I would hate to give myself my first (and a permanent) case of gyno that would require surgery to mitigate. In a few of the logs I read, a product like Erase was taken during their cycles; is this absolutely necessary? Would something like Erase need to be taken during PCT (in addition to Nolva)?

It's not absolutely necessary but if you are worried about Gyno then you are going to want something to lower estrogen.

 

[Ken Powers]

I've done more research on M1,4ADD, and from what I've read, it sounds like it's one of the least liver-toxic methylated PH's. Is this an accurate assessment? I was just reading through the thread posted by the guy who took SD and damaged his liver (as diagnosed by a physician), and I definitely don't want to end up in a similar predicament.

Also, I read that, with M1,4ADD being a wetter compound, there's a higher risk of the incidence of estrogen-related side effects such as gyno. Obviously, I have never taken PH's before, but I would hate to give myself my first (and a permanent) case of gyno that would require surgery to mitigate. In a few of the logs I read, a product like Erase was taken during their cycles; is this absolutely necessary? Would something like Erase need to be taken during PCT (in addition to Nolva)?

I ran a low dose of formestane along with m1,4add, as well as nolva/daa/erase in pct and had zero gyno-related sides.

 

[SpicedCider]

I did a bit more research on M1,4ADD, and it seems like a few sources advise against running it as a "first cycle." Should I really start out with something milder (maybe even something from AMS -- was also looking at Mass Drops)? Also, a more petty concern... but did you notice whether you shed any hair during your M1,4ADD cycle, Ken?

Sorry to beat this thread into the ground...

 

[Ken Powers]

I did a bit more research on M1,4ADD, and it seems like a few sources advise against running it as a "first cycle." Should I really start out with something milder (maybe even something from AMS -- was also looking at Mass Drops)? Also, a more petty concern... but did you notice whether you shed any hair during your M1,4ADD cycle, Ken?

Sorry to beat this thread into the ground...

No worries man. No, I got nothing like that. Honestly, my worst side effect on that cycle was that sometimes my arms/forearms felt pumped to the point where driving home from the gym was more difficult. Which really was not that bad IMO, I loved those pumps, worked out first thing in the morning and felt jacked the whole rest of the day.

As far as your first question though, should you run something milder? Yes is probably the right answer to that, although its completely up to you. I had more side effects from my first cycle (H-Drol) than that one. It would probably be better to run that compound with more experience under your belt, but you could still do it as a first one, keeping your situation/goals in mind.

That being said, look into P-Mag or Mechabol, they're similar to H-Drol in that they're more mild/more recommended for a first timer cycle, but are known to be more "wet" or mass/bulking oriented.

 

[SpicedCider]

Thanks again. I was actually surprised that in almost every log of M1,4ADD I came across, it was stated that harsh side effects (lethargy, liver issues, whatever) were almost nonexistent. I was REALLY surprised to read that many folks actually reported having MORE energy and motivation while taking it, which definitely seems to contrast with the typical user's experience of taking something like Superdrol.

Thanks for the P-Mag and Mechabol suggestions; I'll look into those two as well.

But damn -- reading the logs where users report gains of 15 - 18 pounds (or even more) during a single cycle REALLY makes me wanna try M1,4ADD!

 

[Ken Powers]

Thanks again. I was actually surprised that in almost every log of M1,4ADD I came across, it was stated that harsh side effects (lethargy, liver issues, whatever) were almost nonexistent. I was REALLY surprised to read that many folks actually reported having MORE energy and motivation while taking it, which definitely seems to contrast with the typical user's experience of taking something like Superdrol.

Thanks for the P-Mag and Mechabol suggestions; I'll look into those two as well.

But damn -- reading the logs where users report gains of 15 - 18 pounds (or even more) during a single cycle REALLY makes me wanna try M1,4ADD!

There was a definite euphoric sensation as well as the "alpha" feeling while on it, both of those may have been (partially anyway) caused by me feeling huge and pumped all day.

Now most people do take it as part of a bulking cycle, I on the other hand used it bridged into Ultradrol as a recomp cycle. Strength gains were pretty good, but my upper body blew up size-wise while doing cardio 4-5 days a week and eating probably slightly above maintenance. Went from 237-38 to 242 or so, and I'll be damned if I didn't drop at least one full BF%.

The way I ate and ran on-cycle though, I have zero doubts that if you eat and train for it, 15-20 lbs on a cycle is doable.

 

[SpicedCider]

Speaking of cardio, I used to be something of a fat-ass back in highschool, and in 11th grade, I started running and became conditioned over the course of several months to be able to run ~5 miles without taking a break. Ever since then (late 2004), running 7-8 miles every day of the week has essentially been a part of my routine. I eat TONS of food -- sometimes I'll order two entrees in a restaurant along with an appetizer and eat every damn bit of everything put in front of me.

What is your opinion on continuing to do a lot of cardio while on M1,4ADD? I seriously love to eat (I would consider it a hobby -- it just brings me pleasure) and would have no problem eating even more on cycle than I do now, especially if M1,4ADD will make me that much hungrier.

One thing I'm possibly worried about is the increase in BP brought on by M1,4ADD coupled with the BP increase that is naturally associated with running...

 

[Ken Powers]

Speaking of cardio, I used to be something of a fat-ass back in highschool, and in 11th grade, I started running and became conditioned over the course of several months to be able to run ~5 miles without taking a break. Ever since then (late 2004), running 7-8 miles every day of the week has essentially been a part of my routine. I eat TONS of food -- sometimes I'll order two entrees in a restaurant along with an appetizer and eat every damn bit of everything put in front of me.

What is your opinion on continuing to do a lot of cardio while on M1,4ADD? I seriously love to eat (I would consider it a hobby -- it just brings me pleasure) and would have no problem eating even more on cycle than I do now, especially if M1,4ADD will make me that much hungrier.

One thing I'm possibly worried about is the increase in BP brought on by M1,4ADD coupled with the BP increase that is naturally associated with running...

Firstly, you dont have to sell me on eating man lol, you don't get to 240 by just hittin the salad bar. Next, I wouldn't worry about blood pressure problems from running a lot + M1,4ADD any more than I worried about lifting hard, sometimes going two-a-days + M1,4ADD, or any ph/ds for that matter. That's why we take our on-cycle supports, Hawthorn Berry, Celery Seed Extract, things of that nature to bring blood pressure back down to normal. I didn't experience any headaches on-cycle that I felt were blood pressure related.

With your weight and size gaining goals for this cycle in mind though, I would definitely consider toning back the cardio. That is seriously a TON of running and I can't imagine trying to eat to maintain that, much less eating to try to gain 20 pounds. I'm not saying drop the cardio, obviously you enjoy it if it's something you're doing that much, and I actually think that combined with a clean diet will make sure your gains on-cycle don't get sloppy.