for gyno experts...what did i do wrong? and how to avoid gyno on my next cycle.

[BeastMode 1]

My last cycle was in summer 2010 and went like this:
xtreme tren 90/90/120/120/120/120
m-drol 0 / 0/ 10/ 20 / 20 / 30

Im planning a cycle for July/August. Id like to run the same (or a very similar) cycle, because I had great results. Strength went up ALOT, lost some bf, big difference in vascularity and hardness. Overall, the best cycle i've ever run.
Only side i really had from the cycle was----*I Got GYNO from it.* (and yes, im Positive its gyno b/c i went to the doctor and even got an ultrasound which confirmed it was what i thought)

Anyway, My PCT went like this:
Clomid 100/50/50/50
& Restore -not exactly sure the mg, but prolly a couple caps a day.

A couple weeks into my PCT, i felt a bump developing right under my right nipp. so i started Letro at 1.25 per day. a week later, when i noticed it still there( and getting a little worse), i bumped to 2.5 mg. I kept it at that dose for a couple weeks, and it seemed to go away, so i tapered off the Letro.

Months later, I noticed the lump was still there and thats when i went to the doctor.

so...what did i do wrong?? should i have adding something else in my Pct??

note-I dont think im prone to gyno, never had an issue from my previous cycles. Ive heard about alot of people having rebound flare ups from Sd, so i know this is totally uncommon. Im just wondering how i could have avoided it... (besides taking less Sd)

 

[FL3X MAGNUM]

Tren gyno is different than other hormones in that the cause is from a rise in prolactin and not estrogen. If you run it again use mucuna and p-5-p or some cabergoline from a research company.
I personally think you should run LGI Stano 100 as a base for 8 weeks with the tren for 6 of those weeks.

Should also mention that estrogen can spike back after a tren cycle because of the way it suppresses testosterone. When test levels start to bounce back
..so does estrogen.

 

[BeastMode 1]

Ive run tren twice before and never had an issue. so thats why im assuming the Sd is what did it.
also, someone told me if there wasnt anything coming out of my nipps, it likely wasnt from the tren (not saying they were right, but thats the advice i got before)

I actually had a bunch of caber on hand, but never tried taking it b/c i assumed the Sd was the culprit.

 

[BeastMode 1]

it was the highest ive run tren before, though. i never went above 90 mg tren untill that cycle.

 

[BeastMode 1]

anyone else care to share their input... id Def appreciate i

 

[akaVeritaS]

SD can cause an estrogen rebound.

Tren can cause progestin related gyno. If the letro shrunk it, it's estrogen related. If you're lactating, it's progestin related. Both will be sensitive to touch.

 

[BeastMode 1]

so, what should i have done?? run the letro longer in the first place?
or, as soon as i noticed it coming back, start taking it again??

How long can the rebound take? It was over a year after my cycle that i noticed it getting worse???

I guess my main question is if i run SD again in the summer, how can i avoid this eventual (and really delayed for me, for some reason) rebound from making my gyno worse?

 

[MattPorter]

Gyno is simply unpredicatble and just about ANY hormone imbalance can trigger it.....tren, sd, test, prol,prog, low dht etc.....

I do think SD crushing DHT + test + estro ---- will cause a sneaky gyno flare up once off.....

I also HATE letro because the lipid damaging effects, immune system lowering effect, joint hurting effect and estrogen rebounding effect --- I would rather risk suppressing my HPTA SLIGHTLY with a DHT trial for a few months.

AndroHard works decently, perhaps high dose proviron....perhaps topical dht if you can find. At least with DHT you will look good while tryig to get rid of it and feel great too...

-Matt

 

[darsh89]

so u say you got gyno during pct? sounds to me like your pct products may have been bunk. gyno shouldnt (not that its impossible or anythign) develop while on a serm. as said above running stanodrol or androhard with these hihgly anabolic products can help as well.

its also possible you already had gyno and this cycle just flared it up

 

[FL3X MAGNUM]

so u say you got gyno during pct? sounds to me like your pct products may have been bunk. gyno shouldnt (not that its impossible or anythign) develop while on a serm. as said above running stanodrol or androhard with these hihgly anabolic products can help as well.

its also possible you already had gyno and this cycle just flared it up

Theoretically that is correct. But it is possible to have a huge estrogen rebound during pct thanks to test suppression on cycle, especially if one were to use an AI through the whole cycle, and not even a SERM can keep it at bay the first few days. I am a living testament to that lol.

 

[DangerDave]

Now I have a question.... if it is an estrogen related problem and you were to use exemestane during pct with your clomid wouldn't that give you a better chance of no estro rebound? I mean exemestane is a suicide inhibitor meaning it will eliminate the estrogen not supress it.

Then if you were doing that ^^ and still had gyno flare up would it be safe to assume its a prolactin issue? How would you combat it then? Caber?

 

[darsh89]

if estrogen levels are under control then prolactin shouldnt become a problem, interested to know the answer to your first question though.

 

[darsh89]

Theoretically that is correct. But it is possible to have a huge estrogen rebound during pct thanks to test suppression on cycle, especially if one were to use an AI through the whole cycle, and not even a SERM can keep it at bay the first few days. I am a living testament to that lol.

so if one did use an ai on cycle then it would be best to continue the ai through pct and taper it down? something like asin since its not supposed to cause a rebound

 

[DangerDave]

so if one did use an ai on cycle then it would be best to continue the ai through pct and taper it down? something like asin since its not supposed to cause a rebound

I do know that adex can be used but not with nolva because they fight the same receptors and nolva makes adex ineffective.

Exemestane can be used with nolva and eliminates estrogen and keeps it gone while adex just suppresses it.

So yes it can be used all the way through pct as long as the chemicals used don't conflict.

 

[BeastMode 1]

I know my serms werent bunk. all my blood tests showed how i bounced back. never ran a cycle without a serm, but doubt id bounce back so quickly without one.
I used clomid, not nolva. Im retrospect, i prolly should of added some nolva into my Pct. but i never had issues with gyno ever before, and didnt know much about it...still trying to learn more...

please review my upcoming cycle...
sd 20/20/20 /0 / 0 / 0
epi 0/0 /40 / 40/40/ 50
11 oxo at 300-450 for all 6 weeks.
will nolva (and letro on hand, if needed) be sufficent Pct?? considering im prone to gyno flare up off sd and still have some minor gyno from before

 

[Jonbero]

If you're serious about getting rid of your gyno, don't run another cycle, or atleast stay off the sd...

If you keep using sd I doubt your gyno is going anywhere.

As for what COULD help, two things I'm thinking of; Triazole and AndroHard

 

[darsh89]

I know my serms werent bunk. all my blood tests showed how i bounced back. never ran a cycle without a serm, but doubt id bounce back so quickly without one.
I used clomid, not nolva. Im retrospect, i prolly should of added some nolva into my Pct. but i never had issues with gyno ever before, and didnt know much about it...still trying to learn more...

please review my upcoming cycle...
sd 20/20/20 /0 / 0 / 0
epi 0/0 /40 / 40/40/ 50
11 oxo at 300-450 for all 6 weeks.
will nolva (and letro on hand, if needed) be sufficent Pct?? considering im prone to gyno flare up off sd and still have some minor gyno from before

you need something in that cycle that offers some androgenic value. something like androhard, dplex or stanodrol.

ur pct looks fine. u could consider having an ai on hand like asin or adex to start the last week of nolva and taper down for a few weeks after

 

[BeastMode 1]

you need something in that cycle that offers some androgenic value. something like androhard, dplex or stanodrol.

ur pct looks fine. u could consider having an ai on hand like asin or adex to start the last week of nolva and taper down for a few weeks after

please explain why u feel that way, concerning your first statement...

i wasnt necessarily trying to get rid of my existing gyno. its pretty small, you cant even tell its there by looking at it.
I basically wanted to make sure it didnt get any worse.

Would i be better off just stacking the 11 oxo and epi with androhard??
or would that not be a good idea since epi and andro are somewhat similar compounds(in terms of results)??

 

[darsh89]

epi and andro are only similar in that they are dht derivatives, but nothing more. they offer very different results and have extremely different effects. epi is very very anabolic, androhard is almost completely androgenic. I think the cycle how u have it is fine as long as u have something androgenic added in.

when u take a compound like superdrol or epi that is extremely anabolic but not very androgenic it can sometimes cause gyno becuase of its inability to form a potent dht to antagonize the effects of estrogen. remember that you will have some freely circulating test on cycle and when that gets converted to estrogen you need something to antagonize those effects. thats where somethign like androhard or stanodrol that is almost completley androgenic comes into play. dht competes with estrogen so it can help mitigate gyno type sides. keeping the anabolic and androgenic values somewhat more even on cycle seems to have carryover into pct as well making rebound gyno chances considerably lower.

you could also counter this by using a mild ai on cycle like aromasin and continuing it through pct, but in my opinion going the stanodrol/androhard route first and then having the ai as a back up makes more sense

please explain why u feel that way, concerning your first statement...

i wasnt necessarily trying to get rid of my existing gyno. its pretty small, you cant even tell its there by looking at it.
I basically wanted to make sure it didnt get any worse.

Would i be better off just stacking the 11 oxo and epi with androhard??
or would that not be a good idea since epi and andro are somewhat similar compounds(in terms of results)??

 

[BeastMode 1]

@darsh-
Thanks for the advice. very informative,
Ive been doing alot of research on the andro series, but i dont think its for me. Once you do sd, its hard to go back to much weaker products.

btw, i saw your pics from AH logs, nice results bro.

Im thinking maybe sd isnt a good idea, given my gyno probs. Maybe ill save the sd for my winter cycle if all goes well this summer.

So if i were to just go with the epi and 11 ox both for 6 weeks straight, do you still think i should add the stano?
that sounds like a pretty nice 6 week recomp, IMO.
seemed like u were saying that would make rebound gyno less likely...but would adding the stano make gyno "on-cycle" more likely??

one thing i also wanna mention to you is i did a creatine cycle(both n.o explode and creatine mono.) and towards the end my lump actually got puffier and harder. Im guessing that was from increased estrogen levels from the creatine??

 

[lastchance]

@darsh-
Thanks for the advice. very informative,
Ive been doing alot of research on the andro series, but i dont think its for me. Once you do sd, its hard to go back to much weaker products.

btw, i saw your pics from AH logs, nice results bro.

Im thinking maybe sd isnt a good idea, given my gyno probs. Maybe ill save the sd for my winter cycle if all goes well this summer.

So if i were to just go with the epi and 11 ox both for 6 weeks straight, do you still think i should add the stano?
that sounds like a pretty nice 6 week recomp, IMO.
seemed like u were saying that would make rebound gyno less likely...but would adding the stano make gyno "on-cycle" more likely??

one thing i also wanna mention to you is i did a creatine cycle(both n.o explode and creatine mono.) and towards the end my lump actually got puffier and harder. Im guessing that was from increased estrogen levels from the creatine??

Creatine is in no way hormonal. It is completely nutritional and should display no fluctuation in your hormone levels all

 

[DangerDave]

Or it was like that already but the added muscle, water retention and what not pushed it up to the surface.

I had left over puberty gyno that got pushed up as I added size to my chest over the last year. Not noticeable to other people but I can feel it.

I wouldn't worry about it unless is starts to itch and gets sensitive...

 

[BeastMode 1]

Creatine is in no way hormonal. It is completely nutritional and should display no fluctuation in your hormone levels all

Ive heard/read that creatine boots t levels a bit. Not sayin' its true or trying to argue with you, just trying to figure out why it would flare me up.

I wasn't working chest any more then normal during that crea cycle. my chest is my strong point, so i dont even train it all that much nowadays. more so focus on gettin my back up to strength with my chest.

As Dave said, the water rentention could of had something to do with it...prolly the most likely culprit.

 

[DangerDave]

I have heard the same thing about creatine but without bloods I wouldn't be sure. It is possible I guess to get a small boost but how much? Don't know if its actually noticeable.

As far as what I said earlier it is also possible that fat loss of the fat between muscle and skin can bring it out more. As body fat goes down. Bodyfat is also a reason for higher estrogen too. There are some really interesting studies on it. I could post it if your interested...

 

[darsh89]

@darsh-
Thanks for the advice. very informative,
Ive been doing alot of research on the andro series, but i dont think its for me. Once you do sd, its hard to go back to much weaker products.

btw, i saw your pics from AH logs, nice results bro.

Im thinking maybe sd isnt a good idea, given my gyno probs. Maybe ill save the sd for my winter cycle if all goes well this summer.

So if i were to just go with the epi and 11 ox both for 6 weeks straight, do you still think i should add the stano?
that sounds like a pretty nice 6 week recomp, IMO.
seemed like u were saying that would make rebound gyno less likely...but would adding the stano make gyno "on-cycle" more likely??

one thing i also wanna mention to you is i did a creatine cycle(both n.o explode and creatine mono.) and towards the end my lump actually got puffier and harder. Im guessing that was from increased estrogen levels from the creatine??

No problem bro.

I cant see any reason why creatine would exacerbrate the gyno, maybe the extra fluid retention caused the nipples to look slightly more puffy.


If you wanted something closer to sd but less sides you could look into dzine or ultradrol. both are strong, but sides are considerably lower. Its up to you if you want to save the sd or use it now, you could always kick start it like 10/10/20 with the epi and 11 oxo

in my opinion i will always use stano with sd, epi, and dzine since they are very high on the anabolic side. although i do believe that if u just did 11 oxo and epi you would likely be fine without the stano, in my opinion its worth it to add though. Also the stano on cycle makes rebound gyno less likely and on cycle gyno less likely as well. on cycle it will convert to dht which will compete with the freely flowing estrogen in your body, making it much harder for the estrogen to bind to the receptor. yes an ai would likely work just as well but stano adds some intrinsic benefits such as muscle hardening, strength, and aggression.

you may wanna check out my most recent log: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/193875-sd-bold-epi-2.html

I ran epi bold sd and androhard for 7 weeks. 3 week sd kicker at 10 mgs. i then got kinda crazy with the epi dose and ended up bumping it up to 100-120 the last weeks, not that i recommend this or think that it was a good idea. its just at less than 65 mgs on epi i felt nothing and didnt wanna waste it so i just pushed it until i found my sweet spot. it was a phenomenal cycle, worth side was minor bacne and a litttle lethargy during the middle of the day

 

[stankyleg]

I've used several compounds. The only ones that gave me gyno were sd, epi and test. The test gyno didn't kick in for 6 weeks though. Androhard was perfect. Alphamass had no issues either. No problem even with m1t. I'll always run something androgenic with all compounds from now on. Stano is here to stay.

 

[BeastMode 1]

I've used several compounds. The only ones that gave me gyno were sd, epi and test. The test gyno didn't kick in for 6 weeks though. Androhard was perfect. Alphamass had no issues either. No problem even with m1t. I'll always run something androgenic with all compounds from now on. Stano is here to stay.

Uve tried running all those with stano recently?? or your just assuming it wouldnt flare u up by adding that?

 

[BeastMode 1]

@darsh-
yea u def went high on the epi. I never really got much from epi, but i figured i may give it another chance. Im the same way as you, i always want to get the most out of my cycles(ive never even run more then 2 a year). Ill prolly keep bumpin it up if im not gettin nice strength gains too. But i hope i dont have to go quite that high. The only compound ive even run at a really high dose is x tren. I used to love that stuff. Still have a a bottle, but thats not enough to do anything with.
Im not worried bout sides, just really dont wanna deal with gyno flare up, especially "on cycle". i usually get bloods anyway, make sure ***ts not too messed up.
the only thing i get is aggresion, and i consider that a "good" side- so i can take it all out on the weights. (im also prone to acne, but not usually til Pct. way worse on clomid compared to nolva. ill prolly stick with nolva nowadays, felt weird on clomid)

dmz and ultra would prolly have just as must gyno risk as sd right?? never tried them, but they seem very similar...

 

[stankyleg]

Uve tried running all those with stano recently?? or your just assuming it wouldnt flare u up by adding that?

I haven't stacked it with anything. But I'm seeing evidence that leads me to believe that non aromatizing compounds that cause gyno are probably caused by a high anabolic to androgenic ratio. Stano would bring those numbers a little closer together.

 

[darsh89]

@darsh-
yea u def went high on the epi. I never really got much from epi, but i figured i may give it another chance. Im the same way as you, i always want to get the most out of my cycles(ive never even run more then 2 a year). Ill prolly keep bumpin it up if im not gettin nice strength gains too. But i hope i dont have to go quite that high. The only compound ive even run at a really high dose is x tren. I used to love that stuff. Still have a a bottle, but thats not enough to do anything with.
Im not worried bout sides, just really dont wanna deal with gyno flare up, especially "on cycle". i usually get bloods anyway, make sure ***ts not too messed up.
the only thing i get is aggresion, and i consider that a "good" side- so i can take it all out on the weights. (im also prone to acne, but not usually til Pct. way worse on clomid compared to nolva. ill prolly stick with nolva nowadays, felt weird on clomid)

dmz and ultra would prolly have just as must gyno risk as sd right?? never tried them, but they seem very similar...

dmz is much lower risk than sd. ultradrol i cant think of a single person reporting gyno. i would still run stano with them but thats just me bc i like stano with everything lol. i think either of those two would be excellent though.

if i ran the epi again i would just start at 100 from day 1 rather than trying to bump up each week, it gave me a short fuse that last week at 115 for sure

 

[stankyleg]

dmz is much lower risk than sd. ultradrol i cant think of a single person reporting gyno. i would still run stano with them but thats just me bc i like stano with everything lol. i think either of those two would be excellent though.

if i ran the epi again i would just start at 100 from day 1 rather than trying to bump up each week, it gave me a short fuse that last week at 115 for sure

My name is stankyleg and I approve this message.

 

[DangerDave]

My name is stankyleg and I approve this message.

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