What to expect from test cycle?

[Cwaynemash]

I'm 3 weeks into my test cyp cycle @600mg a week(split between 2ml). I was feeling great up till this last weekend. My diet has improved(more clean calories, protien,complex carbs) but my good mood isn't there all day, I'm feeling lethargic, my strength is still the same- my overall workouts are not what they were. I find myself getting frustrated bc I'm not lifting @ same intensity. I've heard of test flu so I'm hoping that's what it is? & on top of this I'm losing mass- my muscles are a lot harder now & cut but im not as massive. maybe it's from my cardio?(light, first thing in morning x2 a week). Any ideas or suggestions?

 

[ManBeast]

You are in the "hump" of the cycle where you are shutdown but the esters haven't fully kicked in yet. Push through for another week and you should be feeling better. This is why a lot of people kickstart cyp/enan cycles with an oral for 4 weeks.

ManBeast

 

[Jethro52185]

How much of an AI are you taking? High e2 levels can cause lethargy,low sex drive, and moodiness.

 

[Cwaynemash]

I'm not taking any AI(although I have letro on stby).

 

[Jethro52185]

I'm not taking any AI(although I have letro on stby).

There's your problem. AI's aren't just for preventing gyno. They are used to keep your estrogen levels in check. If your estrogen level gets too high, it can make you feel exactly how you feel right now. If it gets higher than that, it can start to cause gyno. My advice to you is to start a AI pronto.

 

[Cwaynemash]

Ok- I hv liquid letro- how much for dosing? Do I need to take till I feel better or stay on it entire cycle? I heard u want the estrogen/ test ratio for mass..

 

[mikeg313]

I'm where your at but I'm on begining week 6 of test e cycle. Was feeling awesome end of week 2 till end of week 4. Week 5 kind of was a let down and 6 is kind of stagnant as well. I wanted to avoid AI if at all possible but I'm feeling alil edgy and my workouts are somewhat disappointing as Im feeling weaker then previous weeks and sex drive is lower. Gonna order Arimidex tonight. Was trying to keeps chemical intake at a minimum and see how I respond but looks like that route isn't gonna favor me.

 

[Cwaynemash]

Yeah I'm hating these crappy workouts- they r still better than my natty ones but im def missing my great good mood feeling. My sex drive did the opposite- had ED issues @ beginning now I'm almost back to normal(b4 my cycle) .lol.

 

[Cwaynemash]

Letro dosing help? Thanks

 

[Jethro52185]

I'm unable to understand why anyone would run any test cycle without an AI. Sure, everyone doesn't get gyno but that's not the only reason to take an AI. E2 levels need to be in check to optimize muscle gain anyway. If you saw how little of an AI you would need to run it wouldnt be a concern anymore. I would run a tab eod or a 1/2 tab of arimidex Ed for 600mg per week. For example, I take a 1/2 tab on shot day and a 1/2 tab 3 days after while running 200mg per week. This is sufficient to keep my estrogen levels where they need to be.

 

[ManBeast]

I'm hesitant to reccomend an AI the whole time while "on" due to the fact that some will start at the reccomended dose, like the results, and think "more is better" and crush their estrogen into smithereens.

ManBeast

 

[Jethro52185]

I'm hesitant to reccomend an AI the whole time while "on" due to the fact that some will start at the reccomended dose, like the results, and think "more is better" and crush their estrogen into smithereens.

ManBeast

Well just like anything else, it needs to be taken in the right dose. I realize you can't fix "stupid", but that doesn't mean people should just not run an AI because they don't know what they are doing. If they don't know how taking an AI effects them, they shouldn't be in the game in the first place. I can't imagine not running an AI from my personal experience. ESPECIALLY with test cypionate, and ESPECIALLY at a dose of 600mg. That much test is going to armomatise, and e2 levels are going to need to be kept in check.

 

[Cwaynemash]

So I will start the AI- how long should I run it? EOD but for how long? Also it's liquid- 2.5mg/ ml.how many ml to take?this is my first cycle so I'm going by what I've read. Thanks for helping me out

 

[Jethro52185]

I would start at .5 mg eod. If you feel better, keep it at that dose and don't change. If you feel the same, increase to .5 ed, but I wouldn't go any higher than that.

 

[Jonny784]

So I will start the AI- how long should I run it? EOD but for how long? Also it's liquid- 2.5mg/ ml.how many ml to take?this is my first cycle so I'm going by what I've read. Thanks for helping me out

Letrozole is a potent AI. Start dosing low and taper up if necessary. You won't see immediate results on estrogen levels, so give it a few days before you make a judgment. From what I've read, a good dose is 0.25 mg to 0.5 mg ED. I'd start at 0.25 mg ED and see how that treats you. If the concentration of your liquid letro is 2.5 mg/mL, that would mean you should take a dose of 0.1 mL for 0.25 mg. For 0.5 mg, take 0.2 mL.

 

[Cwaynemash]

Will do- still confused on how long to run it? Couple weeks, rest of cycle, a few days? Also heard it kills sex drive & gives u ED! Any truth to this? Not wanting to b soft for too long! Lol so I wanna avoid using it for too long unless it's a must.

 

[Jonny784]

Will do- still confused on how long to run it? Couple weeks, rest of cycle, a few days? Also heard it kills sex drive & gives u ED! Any truth to this? Not wanting to b soft for too long! Lol so I wanna avoid using it for too long unless it's a must.

Yea there is truth to that. That's what ManBeast was talking about and why he does not casually recommend taking an AI during a cycle. If you take too much AI, you can "crush" your estrogen levels and make them too low. Having some estrogen in your system is important for libido and proper sexual function. Similarly, too much estrogen can also cause libido and energy issues, which might be what you're currently experiencing. You want the estrogen levels just right.

What we are attempting to do with a low dose AI is to control estrogen, not eliminate it. That's why I suggested starting at the low dose of 0.25 mg/day or 0.5 mg EOD. To give you a comparison, for women with estrogen related breast cancer, they receive a dose of 2.5 mg/day which is 10 times what we're recommending here. If you take the lower dose of 0.25 mg/day, then you are slowing the production of estrogen closer to normal levels, but not eliminating the production of estrogen. Make sense?

Like I was saying, you can adjust the dosage until it meets your needs. You could start at 0.25 mg every other day for example. Run it throughout your cycle. It's not absolutely necessary and many run successful test cycles without an AI, but running a low dose AI could definitely help you with some of the negative symptoms you're experiencing.

Edit: As far as cost concerns, looking at prices of liquid letro, taking a 0.25 mg dose would come out to 13 to 15 cents per day. I think that's doable..

 

[mikeg313]

I'm unable to understand why anyone would run any test cycle without an AI. Sure, everyone doesn't get gyno but that's not the only reason to take an AI. E2 levels need to be in check to optimize muscle gain anyway. If you saw how little of an AI you would need to run it wouldnt be a concern anymore. I would run a tab eod or a 1/2 tab of arimidex Ed for 600mg per week. For example, I take a 1/2 tab on shot day and a 1/2 tab 3 days after while running 200mg per week. This is sufficient to keep my estrogen levels where they need to be.

Well for myself I chose not to order it right away because I haven't been prone to gyno in the past on orals, my joints are pretty banged up due to injuries and I've heard joint complaints, I've discussed it with multiple AAS users outside this forum that never used AI and always faired well, i wanted to keep chemical intake minimum and to top it off the cost was something of rather spend towards other supps. I figured if I needed it I could wait 5 days for shipping and lose out on gains a week during my cycle which sucks but I can always make up for it another time and I learned what my body needs or or how it responds on. Now I know ;-)

 

[Cwaynemash]

Going to start w .25EOD. Do you need to worry bout an estrogen rebound? Or is that only for high dosages all cycle long?

 

[ManBeast]

Estrogen rebound occurs during pct, and is better handled (IMHO) with a milder AI.

ManBeast

 

[mikeg313]

Estrogen rebound occurs during pct, and is better handled (IMHO) with a milder AI.

ManBeast

Nolva wont keep it suppressed sufficiently? Like a OTC AI? What's a good example?

 

[GreenEarth]

Nolva wont keep it suppressed sufficiently? Like a OTC AI? What's a good example?

PES Erase has been ridiculously popular in the "mild AI" department. Has a lot of positive reviews backing it.

I'm unable to understand why anyone would run any test cycle without an AI. Sure, everyone doesn't get gyno but that's not the only reason to take an AI. E2 levels need to be in check to optimize muscle gain anyway. If you saw how little of an AI you would need to run it wouldnt be a concern anymore. I would run a tab eod or a 1/2 tab of arimidex Ed for 600mg per week. For example, I take a 1/2 tab on shot day and a 1/2 tab 3 days after while running 200mg per week. This is sufficient to keep my estrogen levels where they need to be.

Hope this isn't taking him out of context, but when I had asked manbeast on my thread why he recommended I didn't dose Arimex at .5g EOD, he had responded with:

Running an anti-e the whole time will result in lowered gains, because some estrogen is good (lubricates the joints, helps the lipid profile).

I'd actually like to hear some more input on this...I had planned to run an AI the entire cycle at many peoples' recommendations, but if it can seriously significantly limit gains, it seems like it may be better to look for symptoms and only use it then.

Any input?

 

[Jethro52185]

PES Erase has been ridiculously popular in the "mild AI" department. Has a lot of positive reviews backing it.Hope this isn't taking him out of context, but when I had asked manbeast on my thread why he recommended I didn't dose Arimex at .5g EOD, he had responded with:
I'd actually like to hear some more input on this...I had planned to run an AI the entire cycle at many peoples' recommendations, but if it can seriously significantly limit gains, it seems like it may be better to look for symptoms and only use it then.

Any input?

I think what man beast meant was that most people over dose an AI and completely wipe out estrogen. Yes estrogen is needed for gains, and zero estrogen will hinder gains. But having too much estrogen will give you unpleasant sides. Hence the need for proper AI dosing. Keep estrogen levels just right is what gives you side free and feel good cycles. It's very important to me and personally, Ive experienced only benefits of proper AI dosage.

 

[Jonny784]

I'd actually like to hear some more input on this...I had planned to run an AI the entire cycle at many peoples' recommendations, but if it can seriously significantly limit gains, it seems like it may be better to look for symptoms and only use it then.

Any input?

As was mentioned earlier, estrogen shouldn't be too high or too low relative to testosterone levels. Let me start off by saying that taking an AI while on cycle is not absolutely essential. Depending on how your body synthesizes, responds to, and metabolizes estrogen, you might be in the right range without an AI. However, in a case such as the OP's, there were some negative sides potentially related to estrogen levels, so an AI was suggested as a plausible fix.

There are two trains of thought equally valid in my opinion: Either don't take an AI until you experience sides or start out at a low dose AI to prevent sides. In the former situation, you might have to wait a few days for the AI to kick in and estrogen to normalize before you start feeling better. In the latter, you run some risk of dropping your estrogen too low. That's why I suggest tapering up to find your sweet spot. It all depends on your personal experience and how you respond to test and estrogen. Other than watching for sides, only a mid cycle blood test could provide you with a direct answer. Personally, I would start off with a low dose AI (0.25 mg ED) and lower my dose if I experienced low estrogen sides. I'd rather temporarily deal with the effects of low estrogen rather than high estrogen. Either way keep an eye on your sides and overall wellbeing.

 

[ManBeast]

Bingo on all accounts. I ran an anti-e on my entire AAS cycle, but that was after a PH cycle where I didn't and expreienced some massive massive bloating at a dose where most weren't even having any.

ManBeast

 

[mikeg313]

I like the advice manbeast gave me on this as I'm going to be adding my AI at 7 weeks. First couple days .5mg to get levels there faster then go .25 eod there after and adjust as needed.

 

[GreenEarth]

Thanks everyone...I'll keep my response short because they say you should remain quiet among those wiser than yourself I think I may try week 1 @ .25mg of Adex ED, and then go .25mg EOD for the rest of the cycle as long as I don't see sides.

Also, Jonny784 and Jethro52185, you two crack me up...I couldn't imagine my brother communicating with me via a forum focused on anabolics lol.

 

[Jethro52185]

Thanks everyone...I'll keep my response short because they say you should remain quiet among those wiser than yourself I think I may try week 1 @ .25mg of Adex ED, and then go .25mg EOD for the rest of the cycle as long as I don't see sides.

Also, Jonny784 and Jethro52185, you two crack me up...I couldn't imagine my brother communicating with me via a forum focused on anabolics lol.

You ought to see the text messages we send each other on a daily basis. I've replied to three of his texts just now while i write this response.

 

[Jonny784]

Thanks everyone...I'll keep my response short because they say you should remain quiet among those wiser than yourself I think I may try week 1 @ .25mg of Adex ED, and then go .25mg EOD for the rest of the cycle as long as I don't see sides.

Also, Jonny784 and Jethro52185, you two crack me up...I couldn't imagine my brother communicating with me via a forum focused on anabolics lol.

Lol yea it's ridiculous. We don't always agree on everything, but we both learn a lot in the process. Partners in crime so to speak. You should see our text message conversations...

Anyway, let us know how your cycle turns out. Have fun getting HUUGE!

 

[Jonny784]

You ought to see the text messages we send each other on a daily basis. I've replied to three of his texts just now while i write this response.

You should see our text message conversations...

Haha damn it. I guess we think more alike than we care to admit lol.

 

[jason79]

Well just like anything else, it needs to be taken in the right dose. I realize you can't fix "stupid", but that doesn't mean people should just not run an AI because they don't know what they are doing. If they don't know how taking an AI effects them, they shouldn't be in the game in the first place. I can't imagine not running an AI from my personal experience. ESPECIALLY with test cypionate, and ESPECIALLY at a dose of 600mg. That much test is going to armomatise, and e2 levels are going to need to be kept in check.

Also, instead of adding more drugs to the mix, he could try lowering the dose.

 

[Cwaynemash]

Had a great workout last night... Found I gained 5.5 lbs. Took .25 mg of letro likeyall suggested. I know it can't b working yet. Guess the estrogen level balanced out? Or did the test ester release? Feeling a lot better today!

 

[Jethro52185]

Had a great workout last night... Found I gained 5.5 lbs. Took .25 mg of letro likeyall suggested. I know it can't b working yet. Guess the estrogen level balanced out? Or did the test ester release? Feeling a lot better today!

Sounds like placebo to me, which is totally fine and beneficial in most cases. Just stay on the low dose letro and keep hitting it hard. As far as the weight gain goes, could be muscle, could be water retention from a higher level of estrogen. There's no way to tell at this point so just keep on hitting the gym.

 

[GreenEarth]

Anyway, let us know how your cycle turns out. Have fun getting HUUGE!

Will do man, thanks. Best of luck on your current tren cycle!

 

[mikeg313]

Had a great workout last night... Found I gained 5.5 lbs. Took .25 mg of letro likeyall suggested. I know it can't b working yet. Guess the estrogen level balanced out? Or did the test ester release? Feeling a lot better today!

That's great, mine needs to get here now! Im now regretting not picking up my AI to start. Didn't think a week for delivery would be a big deal if I started to experience sides but it is. I'm exhausted , my lifts are disappointing, hurt and unmotivated, my mood is crap I can barely crack a smile or think positive, i feel weighted down and sluggish as all hell and every movement feels forced. If I were to go with how I feel rather then push through it I'd be in bed watching pay per view and sleeping all day with a bucket of fried chicken. Basically I feel like a little bitch! , its just not a good thing. I've learned my lesson about covering all the angles for an optimum cycle rather then try and go with the bare essentials... now I know I'm owed some I told ya so's now!

 

[ManBeast]

LMAO, just don't start walking around in a dress man...

ManBeast

 

[mikeg313]

LMAO, just don't start walking around in a dress man...

ManBeast

, now that put a smile on my face! Even if I wanted to there's nothing in the house that fits!LMAO ... Ugh nasty now I just got the silence of the lambs scene with buffalo bill in my head. "would you fuk me?, I'd fuk me, I'd fuk the **** outa me!" .... Ahahaha!

 

[ManBeast]

MANGINA!

ManBeast

 

[Jethro52185]

, now that put a smile on my face! Even if I wanted to there's nothing in the house that fits!LMAO ... Ugh nasty now I just got the silence of the lambs scene with buffalo bill in my head. "would you fuk me?, I'd fuk me, I'd fuk the **** outa me!" .... Ahahaha!

It puts the lotion on the skin!!!!

 

[mikeg313]

It puts the lotion on the skin!!!!

Or else it gets the hose!..... Put the fukin lotion in the basket!!!!

 

[mikeg313]

MANGINA!

ManBeast

Yeah luckily my junk is still workin great! But im a perv and wifes a freak, so that helps. If I could , I'd have vaginas tattooed on the inside of my eyelids so that's all I see when I blink! ;-)



......I have no clue where that last part came from but it sounded funny when I thought it...

 

[ManBeast]

ROFLMAO!

 

[Cwaynemash]

Hope ur AI arrives soon bro. My mood still sucks all day but my workouts are getting better.. Just takes longer to warm up & start getting after it. No ED issues. Starting to breakout a bit on my face. My balls are kinda sore to the touch- is this normal? Anyway, going to knock my dosage down to .75ml twice a week hopefully putting me around 450-500mg a week. Sound like a good idea? Def not feeling this aromitazation! Lol

 

[ManBeast]

Eh, the sides you mentioned now are mostly test and not estrogen (besides the lethargic feeling), knocking the test down at this point will not have a major impact for about a week or two, and by then the anti-e should be in full swing. Your call though.

ManBeast

 

[mikeg313]

Hope ur AI arrives soon bro. My mood still sucks all day but my workouts are getting better.. Just takes longer to warm up & start getting after it. No ED issues. Starting to breakout a bit on my face. My balls are kinda sore to the touch- is this normal? Anyway, going to knock my dosage down to .75ml twice a week hopefully putting me around 450-500mg a week. Sound like a good idea? Def not feeling this aromitazation! Lol

Yeah me too, haven't had any skin issues , maybe alil more oily then usual but I tan twice a week anyway to keeps skin clear and mood good from lack of sun here. Balls seem fine, can't tell any size change and erections like a baby's arm still but I'm not as ravenous about it as I was when it first kicked in. At the gym it's rough I feel like I never warm up even if I go 2 hours. Just dead on my feet. I could literally fall asleep right on the bench.

 

[Cwaynemash]

Why are my balls sore? Lol. Is this normal? Any input would be greatly appreciated

 

[ManBeast]

They are shutting down and shrinking.

ManBeast

 

[GreenEarth]

At the gym it's rough I feel like I never warm up even if I go 2 hours. Just dead on my feet. I could literally fall asleep right on the bench.

^Keep that intensity up man...short rest sets will keep your CNS active and sleep will hardly be a capability within workouts.

 

[mikeg313]

They are shutting down and shrinking.

ManBeast

Lol then why aren't my balls sore?

 

[mikeg313]

^Keep that intensity up man...short rest sets will keep your CNS active and sleep will hardly be a capability within workouts.

That's what I've been doing, to much rest between sets and I'd be done. It's strange I usually sweat my balls of soak my shirt and shorts but lately I barely work that heavy a sweat up.