How hard is it to keep gains?
- 09-05-2004, 10:22 AM
How hard is it to keep gains?
I'm starting a trandermal cycle of 1-t,4-ad,hydroxytest tomorrow
for four weeks. How hard will it be to keep my gains if im using
nolva for pct. Also, for those of you who have done mulitiple cycles
please post your begining weight/bf and ending body weight/bf after all cycles.
You don't have to list all details (unless you want) just how many cycles and the above.
- 09-05-2004, 10:31 AM
If your diet in check, you should be able to keep all your gains(less water)
Make sure you keep your kals high during pct. If it's your first cycle you
should gain 8-10 pounds no problem.
- 09-05-2004, 10:40 AM
Originally Posted by ripped22
09-05-2004, 10:52 AM
I've honestly had very few problems keeping most if not all my gains PCT. But it does require effort and willpower, especially after a bulk, because most people want to cut very soon after, but this is not a good idea at all...
My progress is semi-well documented in a thread somewhere on this board
I'm guessing I was at about 225 and 30ish percent bodyfat before I did anything hormonal, and I'm at 220 and sub 20% bodyfat at this point almost 2 years and a few different cycles later.
-Saving random peoples' nuts, one pair at at time... PCT info:
-Are you really ready for a cycle? Read this link and be honest:
*I am not a medical expert, my opinions are not professional, and I strongly suggest doing research of your own.*
09-05-2004, 11:32 AM
I have a hard time maintaining gains but I have a hard time gaining in the first place. cant eat enough.
09-05-2004, 11:43 AM
It seems to me that most gains obtained from ph's are
very temporary. All lost in PCT. What is the point? I'm
sitting here staring at my bottle of PH and wondering whats
the point if i can't keep what I will gain. I'm looking for some positive
success stories before i can proceed to mess with my system.
09-05-2004, 12:11 PM
Diet, training, rest and recovery are crucial to any success. These all need to be in place first to see any success. You should have been making significant gains that have come to a stall or "natural limit" before even considering PH's. Once you use a PH it is actaully more crucial that you have your diet, training rest and recovery optimum. If you don't have those in line, you will most likely be unsuccessful. There are hundreds and thousands of success stories on these boards. There are even more failures that you don't read about because they are clueless about what they are doing.
Don't be clueless...research
PCT: nolva, EFA's, FL7, E/C, lower volume, more rest, etc.
09-05-2004, 12:37 PM
Thus far I've had no problems at all keeping gains post cycle.
First cycle was with Mag-10 for two weeks. I was coming off a loooong cutting phase and was at around 160 lbs. I had been eating around 3500 calories a day for four weeks to get there (went from 158 to 160 in the four weeks prior to the cycle.) After two weeks on Mag-10 I got to 180...I'm guessing those gains were big in part was because I had been cutting for a long time prior to the cycle (despite the fact that I had been eating pretty big - for me - for four weeks prior.) I actually upped my calories for the two weeks post cycle and used only 6-oxo...ended up at 177 and looked much better than I had at 180 (that three pounds had to have been water weight.) I actually continued to get stronger through the two weeks of 6-oxo.
I immediately after used M1T for three weeks (started getting real bad nosebleeds on the 20th day so I stopped after three weeks.) I was at 192. This time I used tamoxifen from Lion and PaCT from BSL (6-oxo and 7-keto.) Again I went higher with my calories...felt like I couldn't eat enough (always hungry.) Ended PCT at 192. Again my strength actually increased a little over the weeks of PCT (and at this point I was solidly into new poundages on the bench, squat and deadlift.)
When I stopped PCT after the M1T cycle I went about two or three weeks without gaining a pound on the scale or the barbell. After that, my strength began to inch up and eight weeks later I was 195.
The third cycle I did was with a 1-test transdermal and MOHN. Over six weeks I got up to 202 lbs. PCT was tamoxifen plus Metacort (by Dermabolics.) At this time I also started using creatine (started with V12, went to Vitargo, and ended up with CEX which I'm currently still using.) I've never been a creatine responder, though, so I'm very doubtfull that this did anything...I was, more than anything, just trying to do everything I could in order to keep what I had gained. I ended three weeks of this PCT at 200 lbs.
Right now I'm 6 weeks after PCT from the third cycle. I was as high (two weeks ago) as 205 lbs. and my strength continues to increase. (I'm not super-strong or anything...305x1 on the bench press and 325x1 on the box squat...but this is brand new territory for me...I've never been this strong.) Right now I'm trying to drop about 10 lbs. of bodyfat before I begin something new (which probably won't be legal.)
Overall I've gained about 40 lbs. in the last six months. I'd say 10 lbs. of that is fat but I'm not gonna complain about that...I went from being skinny to being alot bigger than the average man. I'm not on anything right now (other than food and CEX) and I'm still getting stronger and bigger.
So if you ask me I'd say that, unless you are beyond your genetic potential, you shouldn't have to worry too much about "losing all of your gains post-cycle" unless you are not doing the right things. For me, those "right things" have been: take in at least 1 gram of protein per pound of bodyweight (and use high quality protein sources to do that,) use tamoxifen and 6-oxo together PCT, tighten the diet up a little bit post cycle (eat all clean foods but plenty of...I've been preparing three solid meals each evening for the next day and using a good meal replacement for three more meals,) reduce the frequency and duration of workouts during post-cycle periods (but keep the intensity high) while mixing up the training program every 6-8 weeks, get lots of sleep, no alcohol, and I guess that's about it.
I guess the point is that I think you've got to be able to make progress WITHOUT androgens in order to be able to hold on to gains after a cycle. And to do that you've got to find out what works for you and apply those things consistently.
**disclaimer...I'm an accountant, not a personal trainer or anything like that. I'm not an expert by any stretch.
09-05-2004, 01:47 PM
The only gains I kept from PH were the ones I got while using T-1 Pro ... all the others were an expensive waste of time.
It will be a long time before I try another oral PH, if ever. I'd do a transdermal again but it'll be awhile. Doing the orals I did this past winter and the weight yo-yoing up and down really screwed me up ; even though my workouts were progressive as always, I looked like **** this summer - in my opinion due to the PH's. I know that I'd have done much better without any of the orals I tried.
It's great that alot of guys benefit from them , but except for the two T-1 Pro cycles I did last summer, PH's were complete waste of time and money for me.
Unless I decide to go the real gear route which I seriously doubt , I'll just depend on the hard, brief training with good food and rest from here. It worked up until now and at least for me, that's what I'll have to be satisfied with.
I'll continue to tune in here and see how it's working for eveyone but for me ... I'm done with it.
09-05-2004, 03:41 PM
i ran two cycles of m1t this summer, not a ph but along the same lines in the sense of legality, and gained about 24 lbs. i have kept all of it. any gains you make that are muscle are not going to magically dissappear just because you are no longer on cycle. make sure your diet and training are in check, if they are you should have no problem keeping the gains.
09-05-2004, 04:53 PM
also your slow lean gains are the ones that will stay. a lot of people bloat up quickly and then lose the water. diet is a lot of it. pct I eat everything in sight just to maintain.
09-06-2004, 05:37 AM
How easely it is to keep your gains will depend on 4 things.
1. How easely you make gains naturally(thus genetics, if your a hardgainer(ectomorph) your body might be somewhat "resistent" to being very muscular.)
2. Your diet. As always is the key.(find yout your new maintenance, with your new muscle added.)
3. How far you are over your genetic limit, or how far from it you are.
4. your age, natural test levels and general health. Coming off a ph cycle sick is a very bad thing!
Lastly the more you gained on one cycle and the shorter the time frame the more likely you are to lose some or alot of gains.
Gaining and keeping 8-10lbs is better than gaining 18 and losing 9 afterwards.
That's why I prefer m14add by far over m1t, for example.
just my 2c.
Hope this helps.
09-06-2004, 10:19 AM
Thanks for all the responses so far looking forward to hearing more
stories and advice in this thread. Just so you know I don't have
a hard time gaining naturally. I'm 6'1" and weigh 202 lbs 8-9% bf?. When I
started lifting 5 years ago I was 155 pounds. I don't know if I'm near
my gentic potential or not. Lately I seem to have hit a plateau.
I feel with age it will be easier to on put weight and harder to lose the bf.
Right now my diet is as follows......
1.)1 scoop whey with milk and 10g glutamine
oatmeal or bagel creamcheese
2.)milk bagel fruit
3.)chicken or beef with ff or three eggs, hashbrowns, toast
4.)preworkout: oatmeal, 2 scoops whey with milk, 10g glutamine
5.)during workout:1 liter of water or more/ occsionally a carb drink
6.)postworkout: 2 scoops whey and phosphegen HP
7.)dinner: usually within a hour or so of postworkout meal (pasta and meatballs)
8.)pbj or chips(snack food)
10.)N2large wiht 10grams of glute and 2 cups of milk
that is a sample diet. How many calories do you think that is? Any sugestions??
09-06-2004, 12:02 PM
It is you who need know what you are eating...exactly. This will establish a baseline. You go up or down according to your goals. Guess work does not cut it. Every one of those items has a nutrient breakdown that is easily found either on the label or on a net nutrition page. Surely someone could guesstimate what that adds up to, but again...you need to know.
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