PCT sucks for just about every steroid, HOWEVER...

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    PCT sucks for just about every steroid, HOWEVER...


    Note: The following thread is in regard to Primordial Performance's AndroSeries v3 line and I promise I have no agenda, I just wanted to inform some people on some key attractions of these new hormonal products.

    Post cycle sucks. Bottom line. Here is why:

    Mental aspect - you know that hormones aren't coursing through your veins and recovery, muscle hardness, pumps, and confidence will decrease. Motivation directly will decrease.

    Physical aspect - you fear inadequate recovery so you do not train as intensely due to paranoia of insufficient hormones to repair tissue.

    Cosmetic aspect - You either keep eating same as you did while on cycle in hopes to maintain scale weight, but will inevitably get fatter, and softer due to lowered hormones/metabolic rate.

    Here is why AndroSeries v3 reigns supreme come time for the "dreaded pct."

    -You never fully shut down your signaling hormones (LH & FSH) while on cycle due to the once-a-day dosing, which closely mimics the bodies natural circadian pattern of hormone release.

    - With properly functioning signaling hormones still intact while on-cycle, Post Cycle Therapy is a much easier transition, since you do NOT have to essentially resuscitate your endogenous testosterone from the dead!

    -Now that your endogenous hormones are NOT completely shot, you can simply adjust your macronutrient profile in order to minimize bodyfat accrual and maximize lean mass retention.

    -Theoretically your testosterone should be back to pre-cycle levels or in some cases HIGHER than pre-cycle levels which allows you to start your next cycle SOONER!

    -The faster endogenous testosterone is back up to par (or above) the faster you can jump back on cycle to keep moving progressively up the ladder in regard to your physique goals.

    On the flip-side --
    Harsher designer steroids would have shut down your signaling hormones completely and also left your endocrine system completely stressed out in transitioning into Post Cycle Therapy.

    This will leave the user fatigued, depressed, unmotivated and in a very poor position to maintain ANY gains. usually the gains that are maintained aren't "true gains" and more often than not, fat mass accrual and sodium retention ---Hey some guys just hate to see that scale number decrease and welcome fat and water!

    If the designer steroids cycled were c-17aa oral steroids than you not only must consider an overly suppressed hpta, but stressed liver enzymes, skewed lipid panel, and higher hematocrit levels. Then to top things off the un-knowing user will use an A.I. for pct, which could further drive HDL into the ground and cause an estrogenic rebound as well.

    Also - I was wondering as many other have whether this logic applies to dosing "dianabol" or "winstrol" in a once-a-day dosing scheme to replicate the minimal effects on LH and FSH like Andro products do

    After researching a bit, I found that Dianabol dosed at 15mg a day, will suppress LH and FSH by 50%, and dosing winstrol at 15mg a day will also suppress LH and FSH to around 50% --Most likely the methylated properties of the steroids have a "lingering effect" in the liver and organs which perhaps the metabolites keep endogenous hormones suppressed regardless of once-a-day dose scheme.

    (winstrol)---
    Alteration of hormone levels in normal... [Clin Endocrinol (Oxf). 1984] - PubMed - NCBI--

    (dianabol)---
    Effect of an anabolic steroid (meta... [Acta Endocrinol (Copenh). 1976] - PubMed - NCBI

    After looking through our beta-testers blood work it appeared Andro Products reduced LH & FSH by 10% or so.....

    AndroMass tester -
    pre- cycle LH = 2.4
    on cycle LH = 2.6
    pre-cycle FSH = 3.5
    on-cycle FSH = 2.9




    -This information was all in my head after a forum member asked about "How bad is pct coming off AndroMass v3" which triggered all these thoughts, which I feel are relevant and true.

    -Matt

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    An LH of 2.4 & 2.6 would be considered low for someone in their 20's - early 30's. I'm betting that whoever this was had natural test levels of ~200-300 (if their leydig cells have average sensitivity and functionality). I'd like to see someone with a natural LH levels of 5-6 (which would be normal), with testosterone levels of 600-700, repeat the same trial.

    Also, since LH wasn't changed, I'm skeptical that there is any significant amount of 4-ad being present, so I'm skeptical of the conversion rate.

    Back in the day the minimum dose folks used was in the 800-1000mg range per day of 4-AD. Even if you had a 100% conversion rate to 4-ad from the super-4-dhea or whatever it's being labeled as, you would need 12-15 caps per day. That would cost about $15-$20 per day to run. At 50% conversion, that's $30-$40 per day to equal was 4-AD got you for $2/day.
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    If the 4-adrostenediol / androstenedione levels were NOT sufficient, the users simply would have not gained - 10-16 lbs off of the AndroMass v3.

    Check this out -- Beta Tester #2 had the following numbers --

    pre-cycle total test = 652
    pre-cycle LH = 4.0
    pre-cycle FSH = 2.5

    on-cycle LH = 2.8
    on-cycle FSH = 1.8

    30 days post-cycle test = 626
    30 days post-cycle LH = 2.7
    30 days post-cycle FSH = 2.2

    So, you predicted that someone with LH and FSH at these numbers would reveal testosterone measurement in the low 200-300 range, but this guy here has 620-650 measurement.

    It is pretty refreshing to see his testosterone levels after 30 days of discontinuing the AndroMass was 626 and his pre-cycle number was 652, the only difference is now he has 15lbs of new body weight.

    So there is definitely some intermediate anabolic activity going on here to induce this influx in strength and size in 4-6 weeks.

    Good stuff here.

    -Matt
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    Also -- 4AD in powder form worked great as you said at 1200mg ed --- I remember a very wet look with ravenous sex drive.

    -Matt
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    Interesting. What was his on-cycle test level?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripped_one View Post
    Interesting. What was his on-cycle test level?
    Unfortunately Eric did not have testosterone evaluated while using the product as he knew intermediate steroids would be high and test...not so much. I also would be curious what it would reveal though....

    interesting

    -Matt
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    Man, this has got me thinking of trying it simply to get some complete bloodwork profiles.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ripped_one View Post
    Man, this has got me thinking of trying it simply to get some complete bloodwork profiles.
    I could possibly swing a 50% off deal if you log this info? Blood work is great stuff that companies typically AVOID.

    -Matt
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    Awesome. I'm leaving for Europe after Christmas (work related unfortunately), but when I get back I'll take you up on that deal if it still stands. I'll shoot you a PM later on.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattPorter View Post
    If the 4-adrostenediol / androstenedione levels were NOT sufficient, the users simply would have not gained - 10-16 lbs off of the AndroMass v3.

    Check this out -- Beta Tester #2 had the following numbers --

    pre-cycle total test = 652
    pre-cycle LH = 4.0
    pre-cycle FSH = 2.5

    on-cycle LH = 2.8
    on-cycle FSH = 1.8

    30 days post-cycle test = 626
    30 days post-cycle LH = 2.7
    30 days post-cycle FSH = 2.2

    So, you predicted that someone with LH and FSH at these numbers would reveal testosterone measurement in the low 200-300 range, but this guy here has 620-650 measurement.

    It is pretty refreshing to see his testosterone levels after 30 days of discontinuing the AndroMass was 626 and his pre-cycle number was 652, the only difference is now he has 15lbs of new body weight.

    So there is definitely some intermediate anabolic activity going on here to induce this influx in strength and size in 4-6 weeks.

    Good stuff here.

    -Matt
    Total testosterone has little correlation with real life hypogonadal symptoms. You should have tested free test in that guy because he looks borderline suppressed. Did you ask him how he felt after pct?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    Total testosterone has little correlation with real life hypogonadal symptoms. You should have tested free test in that guy because he looks borderline suppressed. Did you ask him how he felt after pct?
    I was being lazy and did not post all the results --My bad, you are correct.

    Here is that same testers Free Test values --

    Pre-cycle Free Test = 151.8 Reference Range: 35.0-155.0
    Post cycle Free Test = 126.0 Reference Range: 35.0-155.0

    High end of the High range from what the numbers dictate.

    -Matt
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    Quote Originally Posted by Royd The Noyd View Post
    Total testosterone has little correlation with real life hypogonadal symptoms. You should have tested free test in that guy because he looks borderline suppressed. Did you ask him how he felt after pct?
    I'm not necessarily agreeing with Matt here but how does his pituitary activity look borderline suppressed? LH and FSH wont be high unless 1) you are taking a GNRH of some sort to stimulate it or 2) your testosterone/estrogen levels are low and needs replenishment. There is a reason its called a negative feedback loop.

    Anyways, as a second thought, if u want to see some true "shutdown" figures then stroll over to my Triptorelin log from a few months ago and observe a real example of shutdown - which measured <.1 on both LH and FSH activity. Now THAT'S shutdown and it took Triptorelin and Clomid therapy both to restore it to normal. If I could have an 8 week cycle, put on a slab of muscle and have a blood sample in the 1.5 - 2.5 range for pituitary activity at the end of my cycle!?!? Can I have my cake and eat it too!?!? Thats awesome IMO!

    It would take Clomid alone to fix that problem! But I digress...

    What I would like to talk about is why people dont take Eric's advice on HCG therapy even in short cycles that r oral?? We already know that shutdown can occur in as little as 1 week, so why not 100iu ED of HCG in weeks 2-4 (or however long the cycle is) to rid ourselves of ANY shutdown? If HCG works for 10-20 week cycles, would it not also be as effective and valuable in 4-8 week cycles?
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    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    I'm not necessarily agreeing with Matt here but how does his pituitary activity look borderline suppressed? LH and FSH wont be high unless 1) you are taking a GNRH of some sort to stimulate it or 2) your testosterone/estrogen levels are low and needs replenishment. There is a reason its called a negative feedback loop.

    Anyways, as a second thought, if u want to see some true "shutdown" figures then stroll over to my Triptorelin log from a few months ago and observe a real example of shutdown - which measured <.1 on both LH and FSH activity. Now THAT'S shutdown and it took Triptorelin and Clomid therapy both to restore it to normal. If I could have an 8 week cycle, put on a slab of muscle and have a blood sample in the 1.5 - 2.5 range for pituitary activity at the end of my cycle!?!? Can I have my cake and eat it too!?!? Thats awesome IMO!

    It would take Clomid alone to fix that problem! But I digress...

    What I would like to talk about is why people dont take Eric's advice on HCG therapy even in short cycles that r oral?? We already know that shutdown can occur in as little as 1 week, so why not 100iu ED of HCG in weeks 2-4 (or however long the cycle is) to rid ourselves of ANY shutdown? If HCG works for 10-20 week cycles, would it not also be as effective and valuable in 4-8 week cycles?
    That is essentially what was happening people were getting bigger while eating cake at the same time. A "win-win" situation if you will lol.

    I should check out that triptorelin log as that fascinates me, what caused you such a harsh suppression anyways?

    -Matt
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    i stopped reading after you started talking about andro w/e not fully supressing hpta function.

    no matter what compound you use, test production isn't ever fully stopped.
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    Well mine was dang near COMPLETLEY shutdown. I started with SD, then bridged to Trenazone and H-drol while taking 400-700mg Test for the whole duration of 8 weeks. Anyways, my t production was pretty much zero.
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    it slows down to practically nothing, but never stops, thats all im saying. even with 600mg of deca for 20 weeks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    i stopped reading after you started talking about andro w/e not fully supressing hpta function.

    no matter what compound you use, test production isn't ever fully stopped.
    That is true, but you will definitely be MORE suppressed with methyls and injectables -- This is not up for argument.

    The fact that the blood work shows the signaling hormones + FT and TT shoot back up alongside empirical feedback from the testers is something a part from "the norm."

    This is recreational hormone cyclers dreams --

    -Matt
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    i dont know, cant debate with you about it, unfortunately im not intersted enough to read the data.

    but I will say, the andromass I ran for 4 weeks at rec dosage, pct would of been a breeze, if even needed at all. but, if i had my way, i'd run andromass at 3x the rec dosage for 8 weeks.
    if only i was a dope dealer or something.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    i dont know, cant debate with you about it, unfortunately im not intersted enough to read the data.

    but I will say, the andromass I ran for 4 weeks at rec dosage, pct would of been a breeze, if even needed at all. but, if i had my way, i'd run andromass at 3x the rec dosage for 8 weeks.
    if only i was a dope dealer or something.
    Are you implying you may wanna explore a Jbry "danger zone dosing" protocol? 18-24 softgels a day ? lol.

    I may not be able to openly and publicly support this --- but maybe privately.....

    -Matt
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattPorter

    Are you implying you may wanna explore a Jbry "danger zone dosing" protocol? 18-24 softgels a day ? lol.

    I may not be able to openly and publicly support this --- but maybe privately.....

    -Matt
    Matt, know of anyone running double or triple the rec dose? Say 12-18 caps a day?
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    Quote Originally Posted by jaydollars View Post
    Matt, know of anyone running double or triple the rec dose? Say 12-18 caps a day?
    12 gels of 1 product --NOT YET.

    I know people will do this. I am not convinced they will get double the results---perhaps a few percentage points of fat loss and weight gain, but then they risk side effects manifesting.....

    Are you going to take the plunge?

    -Matt
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattPorter View Post
    12 gels of 1 product --NOT YET.

    I know people will do this. I am not convinced they will get double the results---perhaps a few percentage points of fat loss and weight gain, but then they risk side effects manifesting.....

    Are you going to take the plunge?

    -Matt
    I don't see the need for that high a dose, I'm gaining considerably off 8 caps of AM V2.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ryansm View Post
    I don't see the need for that high a dose, I'm gaining considerably off 8 caps of AM V2.
    You know we will find out soon---could be a case of diminishing returns.....

    Nice gains btw Ryan

    -Matt
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattPorter

    12 gels of 1 product --NOT YET.

    I know people will do this. I am not convinced they will get double the results---perhaps a few percentage points of fat loss and weight gain, but then they risk side effects manifesting.....

    Are you going to take the plunge?

    -Matt
    Well I'll be running 8 weeks of Bulk at standard dose with UD pulsed in the am mwf before workouts, dc training as well, can't afford 12+ caps lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattPorter View Post
    Are you implying you may wanna explore a Jbry "danger zone dosing" protocol? 18-24 softgels a day ? lol.

    I may not be able to openly and publicly support this --- but maybe privately.....

    -Matt
    i dont know, i ran am v2 at just a reg dose for 4 weeks. maybe 9-12 caps e/d for 8 weeks, starting on the lower end of 9, and by week 4 going to 12.

    I really felt like this product could be used for long cycles.

    my dream cycle of this would be kick start with 10-15mg of sd for 4 weeks + am at rec dosage for 4 weeks, then just andromass solo at 9-12 caps e/d for 4-6 weeks.

    bwa ha ha ha ha ha.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    i dont know, i ran am v2 at just a reg dose for 4 weeks. maybe 9-12 caps e/d for 8 weeks, starting on the lower end of 9, and by week 4 going to 12.

    I really felt like this product could be used for long cycles.

    my dream cycle of this would be kick start with 10-15mg of sd for 4 weeks + am at rec dosage for 4 weeks, then just andromass solo at 9-12 caps e/d for 4-6 weeks.

    bwa ha ha ha ha ha.
    Whats the heaviest cycle you have done to date?

    -Matt
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    i would say my 2nd cycle was that.

    5 weeks of 1,000mg of 4-androstenediol e/d (200mg every 2-4 hrs, with 400mg pre w/o)

    5 weeks of sd/pp/hd stacked.

    first 4 weeks was just 20mg of sd, 20mg of phera, & 50mg of hd, with the 5th week 30/30/75.

    it was so awsome, but also gave me some gyno.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    i would say my 2nd cycle was that.

    5 weeks of 1,000mg of 4-androstenediol e/d (200mg every 2-4 hrs, with 400mg pre w/o)

    5 weeks of sd/pp/hd stacked.

    first 4 weeks was just 20mg of sd, 20mg of phera, & 50mg of hd, with the 5th week 30/30/75.

    it was so awsome, but also gave me some gyno.
    So EVERYTHING listed was ran together for 5 weeks?

    4ad at 1000mg put on some serious weight gain! I remember my ectomorphic training partner--

    Dosed AST's 4diol 300 @ 1200mg/ed and First time I ever saw him gain bloat, and bodyfat.....tripped me out...

    Was this 4Ad saved up from a stockpile or a random UG source that sells 4Ad???lol

    That same friend of mine is very advanced now and told me his source has 4-ad cypionate and he runs that at 800/week or more...

    -Matt
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    yea, it was all together. I felt invincible, and never got tired while lifting.

    the 4-diol increased my appetite like crazy. I took 200mg of 4-diol prior to eating a 16oz (after cooked) burger, and finished it, and in record time, still had room for fries.

    the 4-diol was from a ug lab.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    yea, it was all together. I felt invincible, and never got tired while lifting.

    the 4-diol increased my appetite like crazy. I took 200mg of 4-diol prior to eating a 16oz (after cooked) burger, and finished it, and in record time, still had room for fries.

    the 4-diol was from a ug lab.

    Wait , wait......some UGL actually sold capped 4AD pills lol..?

    I have heard of places selling injectable 4ad cypionate, but a friggin capsule of 4ad on a list???

    -Matt
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    I ran TD 4AD at over a gram daily, along with TD 1-Test at similar doses and 3aa for ****s and giggles, now that was good times.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RH2012 View Post
    i ran a ton of 4ad cypionate and 4ad base injected daily for 16 weeks. it did put 10 lbs on me and gave me the worst acne ever, but no gains like testosterone. my point is if labs are sellin 4ad cyp, imo you would be better off buying testosterone.
    This would makes sense, but 4 ad in and of itself has properties that testosterone does not.....anti inflammatory and other intrinsic properties that it possesses. But I agree that test should rule the day no question about it....4AD should have NEVER been banned in the first place....

    -Matt
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    Quote Originally Posted by MattPorter View Post
    This would makes sense, but 4 ad in and of itself has properties that testosterone does not.....anti inflammatory and other intrinsic properties that it possesses. But I agree that test should rule the day no question about it....4AD should have NEVER been banned in the first place....

    -Matt
    Amen... that sh*t was incredible.
    -Saving random peoples' nuts, one pair at at time... PCT info:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/192992-pct-what-why.html
    -Are you really ready for a cycle? Read this link and be honest:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/191120-checklist-before-thinking.html
    *I am not a medical expert, my opinions are not professional, and I strongly suggest doing research of your own.*
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    What about running normal cycle like dbol for 4 weeks and test 1-12 and then switching to andromass or any of the andro series and then pct?
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    you'd probably still have the shutdown from the other compounds lingering, but I'm not 100% on that

    ManBeast
    -Saving random peoples' nuts, one pair at at time... PCT info:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/192992-pct-what-why.html
    -Are you really ready for a cycle? Read this link and be honest:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/191120-checklist-before-thinking.html
    *I am not a medical expert, my opinions are not professional, and I strongly suggest doing research of your own.*
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    manbeast i trust you, is the andro series v3 either the hard or mass legit?
    Quote Originally Posted by ManBeast View Post
    you'd probably still have the shutdown from the other compounds lingering, but I'm not 100% on that

    ManBeast
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    they are all legit, very mild and very nice on the body. Maybe your own natural production would start up during that time, I'm not 100% sure. I do like their products, especially the TRS-2. I'd wait for a rep to chime in on that though. I too am quite interested if the body could restart its own production on an 8 week cycle of one of their mildly suppressive compounds... could make life a lot more fun no?
    -Saving random peoples' nuts, one pair at at time... PCT info:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/192992-pct-what-why.html
    -Are you really ready for a cycle? Read this link and be honest:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/191120-checklist-before-thinking.html
    *I am not a medical expert, my opinions are not professional, and I strongly suggest doing research of your own.*
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    i've got a 4-ad/m1t cycle waiting for me to run someday. just going to go with 800mg this time though.
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    lets say sd is a 10 out of ten for results and a 10 out 10 for bad sides. WHat would androhard v3 be?
    Quote Originally Posted by RH2012 View Post
    i've ran a m1t/4ad cycle before. great vascularity. i usually cant see my veins, but they were poppin out after a week on that. still had alot of lethargy but over all good cycle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RH2012 View Post
    i've ran a m1t/4ad cycle before. great vascularity. i usually cant see my veins, but they were poppin out after a week on that. still had alot of lethargy but over all good cycle.
    Yeah I think m1t will do that to anyone haha, shts potent.
  

  
 

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