1-test, 4AD, 4OHT trans ratios
- 08-25-2004, 08:07 PM
1-test, 4AD, 4OHT trans ratios
I have done the tried and true 1-test/4AD dermal with T-Gel in the past and use a 1:1 ratio. Can
someone give me a ballpark ratio for 1-test/4AD/4OHT?
I am 6'2", 230 lb. My goals are bulk/strength increase. I usually get hit with lethargy on the 1-test,
so I don't know if 4OHT would help/hurt in this case.
- 08-26-2004, 10:11 PM
If you are bulking and on 1T, you really don't want 4OHT in the mix. This is more to control estrogen, but at a 1:1, the 4AD is probably not high enough to be too problematic. 1T/4AD is a pretty complete package, if the 1T wasn't there, I'd say that 4AD/4OHT would be a good combo too. All three would be more useful for extreme estrogen attenuation and lean, slow bulking. As for strenght, I'm not sure, but 4OHA doesn't hurt.
- 08-26-2004, 10:24 PM
I've done 2/2/1 ratio (1-t/4ad/4oht) and it was a killer ( in a good way)
From now on I'll be running 4oht with every cycle
08-26-2004, 10:58 PM
What impressed you so much with the 4oht that you would use with every cycle?Originally Posted by DmitryWI
08-26-2004, 11:14 PM
08-27-2004, 12:14 AM
08-27-2004, 12:36 AM
Only thing I noticed using Sldge Test vs. 4AD-cyp/prop was being leaner, less bloat. As in controlling estrogen, just like Dr. D said. IMO 4AD is definitely the stronger of the two. Basically I think 4OHT is great as a whole, but only if added to the amount of 4AD you would normally use. For instance, if you're gonna pin 2g/week 4AD-cyp, adding 500mg of 4OHT-cyp for a total of 2500mg/week would be great. But using 1500mg/week 4AD-cyp and 500mg/week 4OHT-cyp for a total of 2g/week, would not give you the same bulking qualities, strength increases, pornstar-like attributes, ect. that 2g/week of straight 4AD-cyp would.
08-27-2004, 02:15 PM
1-t/4ad alone bloated me big time, was pretty lethargic too. And one of myOriginally Posted by DR.D
1t/4ad cycles I had to stop earlier because of insomnia. Last cycle I added
4oht and I didn't have any side effects, period.
08-28-2004, 09:41 AM
That's interesting. Based on the info SuperS gives, I'm assuming 4OHT does dilute the effects of 4AD if not given additionally instead of substitutionally, it may play an indirect role. Like Dmitry points out, it controls side effects, not all related to estrogen. So although it still seems unclear, it could be thought that w/ 4OHT's lower AR affinity, maybe it's filling up SHBG and increasing 'free test' levels. If that's the case, there is a pretty narrow window of benefit w/ it's use. Or in other words, the ratios would have to be just right in order to lower sides but not hurt anabolism. If intrisic activity is still high, the window may be bigger than it seems even with it's lower receptor affinity. Experimentation is the answer, so you guys keep posting on this cause we all want to figure it out!
08-28-2004, 10:20 AM
Dr. D if you do a search for 40HT you will find that quite a few of the guys (longdogg comes to mind) on here love the stuff in their 1-test/4-AD dermals.
08-28-2004, 11:01 AM
Yes, thanks for the suggestion. I'll have to look into it so I can get an idea of what's going on here. I was intrested when it first became available, but kinda forgot about it since I figured it was an interchangable 4OHA metabolite (which I love way more than 6-oxo)Originally Posted by NPursuit
08-29-2004, 01:20 AM
DmitryWI, Are you saying you use the 4oht strictly for controlling side effects? In other words, you don't see much use for it on its own?
08-29-2004, 12:44 PM
Yes, pretty much for controlling side effcts. I've never ran 4oht by itself
and I don't think you'll get much gains that way.
Dr. D, I remember Cuffs, LongDog and Brodus were using 4oht with 1-t/4ad,
so you might ask them how they liked it (or didn't like)
08-29-2004, 01:13 PM
09-12-2004, 10:43 AM
I found this intresting PubMed summary that may shed some light on the reported benefits of 4OH-T. DmitryWI, and others, have repoted this compound to reduce sides when added to stacks. It would appear that this is related to DHT antagonism. It not only acts as an AI, but improves DHT related sides not by 5-reductase inhibition, but by AR competetive inhibition due to strong receptor affinity. It makes sense why this is a good addition to stacks that generate undesirable metabolites. It also points to why 4OHA and 4OHT support libido:
J Enzyme Inhib. 1992;6(2):141-7.
Effects of 4-hydroxyandrost-4-ene-3,17-dione and its metabolites on 5 alpha-reductase activity and the androgen receptor.
Davies JH, Shearer RJ, Rowlands MG, Poon GK, Houghton J, Jarman M, Dowsett M.
Department of Urology, St. Georges Hospital, London, England, UK.
The steroidal aromatase inhibitor, 4-hydroxyandrost-4-ene-3,17-dione (4OHA) and its metabolites, 4-hydroxytestosterone (4OHT), 3 beta,17-dihydroxy-5 alpha-androstan-4-one (metabolite A) and 3 alpha, 17-dihydroxy-5 beta-androstan-4-one (metabolite B) were evaluated as inhibitors of the human prostatic 5 alpha-reductase enzyme and for binding to the rat prostatic androgen receptor. 4OHA and 4OHT were weak inhibitors of 5 alpha-reductase with IC50 values of 15-29 microM. Metabolites A and B had no significant inhibitory activity. 4OHA and metabolites A and B bound weakly to the androgen receptor. The binding affinities (RBA) relative to mibolerone (RBA = 100) were 0.085, 0.485 and 0.016, respectively. However, 4OHT (RBA = 75) was a more potent binder than the endogenous androgen 5 alpha-dihydrotestosterone (RBA = 66). The ability of these metabolites, in particular 4OHT, to bind to the androgen receptor may explain the in vivo androgenic activity of 4OHA.
PMID: 1284430 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
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