My first cycle ever, asking for expertise

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    Question My cycle ever, asking for expertise


    Hey guys, I've been doing hours of research on many forums for weeks now, and I think I've finally decided on a cycle I'm comfortable with. I'd love some experienced veterans to help me out with feedback. I'm 21, 6'0, 185 lbs. Lifted for 6 years, prior to which my natural body weight was 135 (same height!) As it is difficult for me to gain weight, my foremost concern is to bulk. So here it is:

    Week 1-10: Test Enan 500 mg/week
    Week 1-8: Deca 400 mg/week
    Week 1-4: Dbol 30 mg/day

    I plan on keeping plenty of Nova only as needed during cycle, and plan for a standard clomid therapy post cycle refered by a friend.

    Post cycle:
    1st day: clomid 300 mg
    Next 15: clomid 100 mg
    Next 12: 50 a day for 12 days

    My question for cycle: Is it manageable or am I too ambitious? How androgenic and aromatizing is this plan? Are side-effects unlikely or definite?

    Sorry to lay so much out here, but I also cannot decide whether or not HCG is useless cosmetics or beneficial to prepare for clomid treatment. Can someone give the final word?

    I appreciate this alot. I understand nova use throughout will deter gains, but I really want to know how strong are the potential sides, because although bulking is #1, I would choose to be more conservative if smart play warrants it. I have a *very* strong predisposition to hair loss, my dad lost his hair in his 20s naturally, and I am already beginning. This scares me, can I somehow do this cycle and control DHT levels? If anyone has the patience to answer some of these questions, I'm in your debt. thanks...

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    Re: My cycle ever, asking for expertise


    Originally posted by baham99

    Week 1-10: Test Enan 500 mg/week
    Week 1-8: Deca 400 mg/week
    Week 1-4: Dbol 30 mg/day
    The ol' bread & butter. Thousands served, never heard a complaint. My second cycle was identical to this, except I used EQ. Great gains.


    Post cycle:
    1st day: clomid 300 mg
    Next 15: clomid 100 mg
    Next 12: 50 a day for 12 days
    This is fine IMO. I did 300mg week 1, 200mg week 2, 100mg weeks 3 & 4. As far as 1st day, make sure its a week or so after your last Enth. injection. Enth. will stay active for a few days after your last injection.

    My question for cycle: Is it manageable or am I too ambitious? How androgenic and aromatizing is this plan? Are side-effects unlikely or definite?
    What are your goals? Whats your nutrition like? What training method are you going to use? How are your sleep patterns? What if any supplements are you going to use?

    *As far as supplements go, I would run Uni -Liver, Extra Vitamin C & E, ALA, Milk Thistle, Flax oil, Whey protein (of course) and make your own meal replacement. Start creatine the day of your last Enth. shot.

    Sorry to lay so much out here, but I also cannot decide whether or not HCG is useless cosmetics or beneficial to prepare for clomid treatment. Can someone give the final word?
    If you can get HCG for a reasonable price, get it. I did, I loved it, I try to run it after all my cycles. If not, no big deal.

    I appreciate this alot. I understand nova use throughout will deter gains, but I really want to know how strong are the potential sides, because although bulking is #1, I would choose to be more conservative if smart play warrants it.
    My sides were mild acne and restlessness, but I can more than handle that. I can not speak for you and refuse to, but unless your predisposed to sides, they are quite milk IMO. Bloating from the d-bol of course (could get arimidex) and make sure you keep an eye on your blood pressure, get it checked often. I actually bought a home monitoring kit and glad I did. Around $50 for a good one and an Extra Large cuff.


    I have a *very* strong predisposition to hair loss, my dad lost his hair in his 20s naturally, and I am already beginning. This scares me, can I somehow do this cycle and control DHT levels? If anyone has the patience to answer some of these questions, I'm in your debt. thanks...
    We have a good thread on DHT and another good one on hairloss prevention. If you're wating Nizoral Shampoo, shoot me a PM, I can lead you in the right direct.

    Any more questions, dont hesitate to ask.
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    Another post you might want to look at about DHT is one that YJ put up

    http://www.anabolicminds.com/forum/s...;threadid=1547

     
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    First off, YellowJacket, you made my day. Before you get your first response, you feel like no one might ever respond.

    Well, my goals are strictly to gain mass, water, fat, all of it together. My metabolism and genetics are such that I can lose 10,20,30 lbs, whatever, if I go any amount of time without hard lifting and hard eating. Of course this is extremely saddening. That's why I'm here.

    I try to eat as many egg whites as I can, red meat, white meat, and live and die by Cytosport's MuscleMilk. I don't know the #s to my diet, my I know I'm at the peak of my eating potential. (maybe I should look out for LDL? hmm)

    To sum up questions about my habits, I sleep more than I eat, and I eat more than I lift, and I lift more than I do anything else in life besides the previous.

    I'll look up Uni -Liver, ALA, and Flax oil, not sure what they are, but they must be over the counter anyway. Everything else'll be sure to do. I feel guilty for typing anymore here, I'll PM you for the smaller things.

    Thanks again!!
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    Originally posted by baham99
    First off, YellowJacket, you made my day. Before you get your first response, you feel like no one might ever respond.
    Well thats what they pay me for


    I try to eat as many egg whites as I can, red meat, white meat, and live and die by Cytosport's MuscleMilk. I don't know the #s to my diet, my I know I'm at the peak of my eating potential. (maybe I should look out for LDL? hmm)
    Before you take the pung, let us know and we'll hook you up in the nutrition section with a clean, bulking diet.

    To sum up questions about my habits, I sleep more than I eat, and I eat more than I lift, and I lift more than I do anything else in life besides the previous.
    haha, I like it....

    I'll look up Uni -Liver, ALA, and Flax oil, not sure what they are, but they must be over the counter anyway. Everything else'll be sure to do. I feel guilty for typing anymore here, I'll PM you for the smaller things.
    Yes, all are OTC and together, the Uni Liver and the Flax oil will run you $20 for a complete cycle and then some. ALA is a bit more expensive but worth it. You can leave it out and up the milk thistle if you'd like. Feel free to PM me or ask any questions you have man, a variety of opinions are always best....unless pjorstad is here.
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    yellow jacket ::If you can get HCG for a reasonable price, get it. I did, I loved it, I try to run it after all my cycles. If not, no big deal.

    raybravo :: yj , using hcg is very very important , ive said this again and again , especially when a substance like deca is being used , hcg use becomes compulsory .
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    HCG is not needed IMO. I only would use it on longer or high dosed cycles. You will recover fine with just Clomid.

    Id run 25mg Aromasin E3D. If not throw in 10mg Nolva ED. Reguardless what some will tell you, Nolva will not hinder gains on a significant level.

    I like your cycle just as it is though.
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    Agreed BB. 400mgs of Deca isnt an overhaul by any means
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    HCG and Clomid


    I think it's funny thing that out of all the threads in all the forums, people can have completely contrasting opinions on this subject. Some will insist HCG must be used to bring them boys back to size if clomid is to be effective. Others maintain that you don't need it at all. I guess you guys make it a matter of the strength of cycle...so since this is my first, I guess I''ll play it by feel! I've I see major shrinkage towards week 6, maybe I should think about gettin some.

    YellowJacket: You mentioned in your msg it's not worth it to buy clomid with the gear if the price isn't fair. So, is the OTC liquid stuff completely interchangeable? Cuz I'd prefer to go to a pharmacy for whatever I can anyway. Thanks.
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    Re: HCG and Clomid


    Originally posted by baham99

    YellowJacket: You mentioned in your msg it's not worth it to buy clomid with the gear if the price isn't fair. So, is the OTC liquid stuff completely interchangeable? Cuz I'd prefer to go to a pharmacy for whatever I can anyway. Thanks.
    Well the price you're getting it at, I would go with the liquid clomid. Check the "Fina and Supplies" URL in my signature, that will lead you in the right direction. WOnt be able to get it at a pharmacy because its for research pruposes only...
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    Hey ray why do you think that HCG is compusory? Just asking because of the difference in opinion on this.. I have seen studies for and against its use
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    My opinion is just that I hate deca..I feel its metabolites last way too long in the body and hinder recovery. If it was me, I would replace deca with EQ, but that is my only opinion, otherwise, it looks great.
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    contrary to the dominating opinion of the times, that anti-estrogens alone will do little to raise testosterone levels in the early weeks of the post-cycle window. This leaves us to focus on a very different level of the HPTA in order to hasten recovery: the testes. For this we will need the injectable drug HCG. If you are not familiar with it, HCG, or Human Chorionic Gonadotropin, is a prescription fertility agent that mimics the bodies own natural LH. Although the testes are equally desensitized to this drug as LH (they both work through the same mechanism), we are administering it as a measured drug and are therefore not constrained by the limits of our own LH production. We similarly can use HCG to provide a bolus dose of LH (of our choosing), which works only to augment the recovering LH levels we already have in the body. In essence we are looking to shock them with an overwhelmingly high level of LH activity, coming from both endogenous and exogenous sources. We want it to reach a level far above what our body, even when supported by anti-estrogens, could possibly do on its own. The result can be a rapid restoration of original testicular mass and functioning, which would allow normal levels of testosterone to be output much sooner than without such an ancillary program. What we are looking at now is HCG actually being the pivotal post-cycle drug, while anti-estrogens are relegated to a supportive role at best. 
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    Heres a real life study for you: Never used HCG, used all the formentioned compounds, came off as if I never went on in due time, with the use of novladex and clomid.
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    yellowjacket::Heres a real life study for you: Never used HCG, used all the formentioned compounds, came off as if I never went on in due time, with the use of novladex and clomid.

    raybravo:: this is so not a right example bro , its not what worked for u ! its what would work for the general population out there , generalisation, generalisation is what its all about , there needs to be a set of rules to be followed by evry steroid user upto a certain point where he becomes capable enough to decide and do what works for him , until he gets there, he needs to do evrything by the book , and by the book , hcg use is a must . and anyway , how come all the post cycle recovery articles u post seem to insist on hcg use ?if u dont believe in them , why do u go on posting endlessly about post cycle recovery ?
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    Originally posted by wardog
    My opinion is just that I hate deca..I feel its metabolites last way too long in the body and hinder recovery. If it was me, I would replace deca with EQ, but that is my only opinion, otherwise, it looks great.
    bump on the eq, more appetite and doesn't shut you down as hard.
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    Originally posted by raybravo

    raybravo:: this is so not a right example bro , its not what worked for u ! its what would work for the general population out there , generalisation, generalisation is what its all about , there needs to be a set of rules to be followed by evry steroid user upto a certain point where he becomes capable enough to decide and do what works for him , until he gets there, he needs to do evrything by the book , and by the book , hcg use is a must . and anyway , how come all the post cycle recovery articles u post seem to insist on hcg use ?if u dont believe in them , why do u go on posting endlessly about post cycle recovery ?

    To make the generalization that everyone needs HCG is terrible. Not everyone's bodies the same. After reading and researchng, the majority of people do not use it. And simply for the last time, when I post articles, I do no live and die by them I post them to spark converstation and give a new opinion on something.
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    yellowjacket ::To make the generalization that everyone needs HCG is terrible. Not everyone's bodies the same. After reading and researchng, the majority of people do not use it .

    raybravo :: this is so wrong , if majority of people dont use it , does it mean its not necessary ? is that the conclusion you have come to from all of your research ? i would think you would atleast learn something from all of it bro , not a flame or anything , but ure talking sooo wrong right now about hcg man ....
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    fine , i'll play along with u ,give me some good reasons why hcg is not needed other than "i didnt need it " . then i will reply appropriate , cos i want this to be an intelligent discussion , not arguement ok? cos ure a good friend to me .
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    This guys cycle thread isnt the place to debate HCG use. Its an accessory compound, not manditory. I'll leave it at that. You continue to use it, I wont. Thats life.
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    You dont need HCG! You can achieve full recovery from Clomid alone, not because its an anti-estrogen, but because of the LH stimulation which occurs from the Clomid! This stimulation does originate in the Testes, and may be a less surge or stimulation if the testes are atrophied, but it WILL still occur!

    The general population uses Clomid. As it is SUPERIOR than HCG. You can recover alone of Clomid, but not off HCG. Simple fact right there.

    Those that use HCG only really need it on a heavy cycle, or on one that is long. Why? Cause your testes are much further atrophied than your typical 10wk study.
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    I would change the deca to EQ. Deca can be very suppressive for some individuals and in turn takes months to recover rather than weeks. For this reason alone i never use deca.

    Whether or not you choose to use HCG is up to you. HCG will definitely help with recovery but if used incorrectly it can cause problems. For this reason many choose not to use HCG even though it will definitely aid in recovery and the ability to hold onto gains. If not using HCG then a combo of nolvadex and clomid is preferred for post cycle.
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    1) So I gather from what everyone is saying, 10 weeks isn't enough to fear for my health without HCG, despite it's value?

    2) A lot of ppl seem to prefer EQ...but I chose Deca for its size building...this is still legit right?*

    3) I've read that clomid and nova more or less do the samething...and you can choose just one for recovery. SIZE: What sort of clomid/nova COMBO cycle do you recommend post cycle? Is it better to take both? I've seen ppl do clomid a-dex and nova all during a cycle...is this the same idea?

    *What everyone is saying about Deca worries me, can someone defend it? When I was 18, I took an andro stack straight outta highschool. Remember Paradeca? Anyway, may because I was too young, I lost everyone ouce of libido I had post 6 week cycle for 2 months. I seem to be particularly sensitive in this area...I don't particularly care about retaining size post cycle this time (because I know I can't keep it all and I can't lose it all,) but I am truly concerned about the quality and length my recovery!! How long 3 weeks after my last test inj. do u think I can resume a normal sex life???? thanks for your input.
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    EQ is just a better drug in my opinion especially since you do not know how you will react to deca.

    HCG should be used and is prefered but many choose not to use it. IF you choose not to then you will still keep gains with correct post cycle treatment but not to the fullest extent.
    Without HCG do this:
    Week 1: 100mg clomid, 50mg nolvadex ed
    Week 2: 50mg clomid, 40mg nolvadex ed
    Week 3: 25mg clomid, 30mg nolvadex ed
    Week 4: 20mg nolvadex ed
    This should allow you to recover properly and maintain gains. however, Raybravo is correct about his usage of HCG.
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    I disagree. Thats why there is a long standing debate whether to use HCG or not. But to each his own.
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    Originally posted by YellowJacket
    I disagree. Thats why there is a long standing debate whether to use HCG or not. But to each his own.
    Very true. I will add that i do not use HCG.
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    Altnernative 1st cylcle?


    Hey guys, I've already ordered all the gear, and pretty much committed to this bulking cycle. Now, I got curious with everyone talking about EQ, and decided to do some more research. Suddenly, I'm not so sure if I'm taking the right route! I read that primo and winny are both great for the beginner, wihch bring him to closer to a natural potential with more permanent and lasting gains (hardening muscle and increasing strength) and with minimal sides. Other than being light and safe, this supposedly paves the way better for a future bulking cycle? Now, I know this would typically be a cutting cycle, especially if I throw in EQ and a test, used afer bulking. But my question is, should I defy the usual get-big-first-then-cut-down logic in favor of maximizing my body's potential and more efficiently using AAS for both cycles? Meaning, use a light cutting cycle just to prepare my body for the hard stuff later. Or should I stay with what I planned and go the whole nine yards with the test-deca-dbol? I understand the first cycle is a precious one to make gains...what do you guys think???? safe conservativism or bold aggressiveness?

    P.S. Size: thanks for the postcycle, I'll do both instead of clomid alone.

    As for HCG, I'll spare myself the touch decision and attribute not taking it to money!
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    good cycle man!

    forbb
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    Primo is a wonderful drug but finding the real stuff is very difficult. I would estimate that 80%+ of primo in the market is fake and this is from people in the know.
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    Size: Does that mean people who go on cutting cycles don't use Primo? I guess I don't need it, can you tell me if it's a good idea for my first cylcle to *not* do what I have now, and instead do EQ and winstrol? Which one do you think will maximize future results? I ask this because I heard gains off EQ and winny were more permanent, and maybe good for beginners.
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