prolactin induced gyno ?

WATERLOGGED · 08-18-2004, 04:56 PM

im doing a cycle right now and my right nipple is soare,and aches whenpushed against ,i dont know if it is prolactin induced gyno or reg. gyno.i started takeing 60mg.ed of nolva, its day 4 and i can still feel a smal lump and its still somewhat sore. so since im useing HYDROXY. NANDROLONE/4ad/m1,4add i thought it might be prolactin induced gyno. ive been thinkin about getting some bromo,but dont know how to take it,how long to use it for this.

btw ..this cycle has really started out on a sour note ![infection,gyno and a ****ed up bi.]and its only wk 1.

any help would be appreciated

size · 08-18-2004, 06:33 PM

Just keep using the nolvadex. The lump is not going to just disappear overnight.

**bioman** · 08-18-2004, 06:38 PM

Could very easily be estrogen induced gyno though prolactin always plays some role. M,14 AD and 4AD is a pretty wet cycle.

Continue on with the nolva treatment and maybe cut back the 4AD or M1,4 ADD dose if you're really worried about it.

WATERLOGGED · 08-18-2004, 07:05 PM

thanks size,so , ok ill definately keep taking nolva, but shoul i drop the m1,4add@50mged at least while im tryin to get better ?

sorry didnt see all of bios post[cut back on the 1,4add] ok

i have gained 10 pounds in the last 7 days im sure its all water, will an a.i help....dry me out ,get rid of some estro ?

BryanM · 08-22-2004, 04:22 PM

are you able to squeeze fluid out of nips if so then its deffanatley prolactin induced.

max silver · 08-23-2004, 12:36 AM

I think you're going to need to get yourself a dopamine agonist of some sort if this is in fact prolactin induced. I myself am suffering from a case of prolactin induced gyno, and nolvadex has done nothing to alleviate the symptoms. To top things off, my doctor refused to give me a prescription for the problem even though I stated very directly that I had itching, tenderness, etc. and that I was certain that my lump is prolactin induced. His answer was to just run tests because my mention was the first he had ever heard of dopamine agonists for use in prolactin gyno. He suggested that I find some research to show him on the topic, wtf is that, I'm the patient and I'm the one responsible for finding medical research on the topic? Total frickin' joke if you ask me. I've had to wait almost 2 weeks extra because of this goofball's refusal to write me a prescription waiting for test results to show up. I do have some pergolide as well as some bromo on order, but those will likely be weeks before showing up, assuming they even make it beyond customs.

At any rate, from the research I've done myself the best dopamine agonist available is most likely Dostinex, as it's much more effective at prolactin reduction than bromo is, with a much lower incidence of side effects as well. However, this is a very expensive drug, with prices running in the neighbourhood of 150 dollars from Canadian online pharmacies. Other options are the afforementioned bromocriptine, as well as one a board member has recommended to me, pergolide mescylate. (not sure on the spelling of this one). However the pergolide's side effects profile kind of worries me, as it has been shown to cause heart valve defects, can cause hallucinations, sudden onset of sleep, etc. Not something to be taken lightly, however I gather that effective dosages for prolactin control are much lower than what is usually prescribed for the drugs main intended purpose, which is Parkinsons disease.

**Cosmo Kramer** · 08-23-2004, 01:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by max silver

To top things off, my doctor refused to give me a prescription for the problem even though I stated very directly that I had itching, tenderness, etc. and that I was certain that my lump is prolactin induced. His answer was to just run tests because my mention was the first he had ever heard of dopamine agonists for use in prolactin gyno. He suggested that I find some research to show him on the topic, wtf is that, I'm the patient and I'm the one responsible for finding medical research on the topic? Total frickin' joke if you ask me. .

You do know that there has neve been a case of gyno that was directly caused by prolactin so why SHOULD he believe you? All the research on the subject indicates that prolactin can aggravate an already exsisting condition and that prolactin itself cannot cause gyno. Prolactin can be responsible for lactation but gyno is not caused by prolactin, ut is caused by estrogen. Prolactin and progesteron can aggravate this condition even though estrogen levels are low.

"Increased circulating levels of progesterone and prolactin alone do not explain the development of gynaecomastia in patients with liver disease, but progesterone may be an additional factor acting in association with the known disturbances of other sex steroids. (1)

(1) Gut. 1982 Apr;23(4):276-9.

Progesterone, prolactin, and gynaecomastia in men with liver disease.

Farthing MJ, Green JR, Edwards CR, Dawson AM.

Prolactin secretion in the human male is increased by endogenous oestrogens and decreased by exogenous/endogenous androgens.

Gooren LJ, van der Veen EA, van Kessel H, Harmsen-Louman W, Wiegel AR.

There is evidence that prolactin may be involved in testicular steroidogenesis, and we have therefore investigated whether there is feedback regulation of androgens/oestrogens on prolactin secretion in the human male. To assess this we have measured basal and TRH-stimulated prolactin levels in: Six eugonadal men before and after 2 weeks' administration of the aromatase inhibitor delta'-testolactone, which led to a fall in oestradiol levels with unchanged levels of testosterone. In these patients, prolactin levels decreased. Six eugonadal subjects before and after 6 weeks' administration of dihydrotestosterone undecanoate. In these subjects, prolactin levels decreased. Six agonadal subjects, tested after 12 weeks' treatment with dihydrotestosterone undecanoate and compared to: Six agonadal subjects who received no sex steroid treatment. Again, it was found that dihydrotestosterone treatment decreased prolactin levels in patients from Group C. Six eugonadal subjects were also studied before and after 6 weeks' administration of the androgen receptor antagonist, spironolactone, and this treatment increased Prl secretion. It is concluded that in the human male, endogenous oestrogens increase prolactin secretion whilst exogenous/endogenous androgens decrease prolactin secretion.

So even if you reduce the lactation with Bromo you won't eleviate the cause. Tamoxifen is still your best bet at reducing gyno. Bromo will only reduce the the after effects.

Management of physiological gynaecomastia with tamoxifen.

Khan HN, Rampaul R, Blamey RW.

Professorial Unit of Surgery, Department of Surgery, Nottingham City Hospital, Nottingham NG5 1PB, UK. hamimi@dsl.pipex.com

AIMS: We aimed to confirm suggestions that tamoxifen therapy alone may resolve physiological gynaecomastia. METHODS: A prospective audit of the outcome of tamoxifen routinely given to men with physiological gynaecomastia was carried out at Nottingham. Men referred with gynaecomastia had clinical signs recorded, e.g., type (diffuse 'fatty' or retro-areolar 'lump'), size and possible aetiology. They were offered oral tamoxifen 20mg once daily for 6-12 weeks. On follow-up patients were assessed for complete resolution (CR), partial resolution where patient is satisfied with outcome (PR) or no resolution (NR). Success was either CR or PR. RESULTS: Thirty-six men accepted tamoxifen for physiological gynaecomastia. Median age was 31 (range 18-64). Tenderness was present in 25 (71%) cases. Sixteen men (45%) had 'fatty' gynaecomastia and 20 had 'lump' gynaecomastia. Tamoxifen resolved the mass in 30 patients (83.3%; CR=22, PR=8) and tenderness in 21 cases (84%; CR=0, PR=0). Lump gynaecomastia was more responsive to tamoxifen than the fatty type (100% vs. 62.5%; P=0.0041). CONCLUSIONS: Oral tamoxifen is an effective treatment for physiological gynaecomastia, especially for the lump type.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial

SOURCE: Breast. 2004 Feb; 13(1): 61-5
INTERNATIONAL STANDARD SERIAL NUMBER: 0960-9776 Scotland

WATERLOGGED · 08-23-2004, 07:27 AM

brian, no nothing like that thank god. ,its was to tender to push against i''m surely not gonna squeeze it .ive been on nolva now for 8 days and its gone down alot and not nearly as tender,but its still a little achhey when pushed against.........how long can i stay on th nolva{60mg] at this doseage and still make gains ?and can i drop it to [10mg/ed] now or should i wait till its gone completely ?

max silver · 08-23-2004, 08:05 AM

Ok, I didn't mean to come across as any kind of authority, as I'm certainly still learning about this subject, but was merely relaying my own personal experience. I started dosing nolvadex and liquidex immediately upon the first sign of gyno symptoms, and found it has done little to nothing to offer relief, even though with that combination my circulating estrogen should have been close to nil within days. I've read numerous anecdotal accounts of many others with tren and deca based gyno problems (mine was from a 4mohn/mdien combo) that have also seen no results with ai's and serms in combo as well, only to find that the only thing that worked to stop the pain/itching, etc. was dopamine agonists. Seeing as how that more or less mirrors my own situation, and how nolvadex has done little to nothing to help me out, I just think that a shot at reducing prolactin levels is well worth it for myself.

I don't have studies to back this up as you do Bobo, but from the multitude of threads on the subject with users having success in receding gyno with bromo/cabergoline, etc. I came across from browsing through the Anabolex archives, has led me to wanting to give this type of treatment a shot.

**Cosmo Kramer** · 08-23-2004, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WATERLOGGED

brian, no nothing like that thank god. ,its was to tender to push against i''m surely not gonna squeeze it .ive been on nolva now for 8 days and its gone down alot and not nearly as tender,but its still a little achhey when pushed against.........how long can i stay on th nolva{60mg] at this doseage and still make gains ?and can i drop it to [10mg/ed] now or should i wait till its gone completely ?

You can stay on that does for a while until the lump subsides. Nolvadex won't effect gains much, if at all because it doesn't reduce estrogen (in fact estrone is raised). Mine took about 3 weeks to subside.

**Cosmo Kramer** · 08-23-2004, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by max silver

Ok, I didn't mean to come across as any kind of authority, as I'm certainly still learning about this subject, but was merely relaying my own personal experience. I started dosing nolvadex and liquidex immediately upon the first sign of gyno symptoms, and found it has done little to nothing to offer relief, even though with that combination my circulating estrogen should have been close to nil within days. I've read numerous anecdotal accounts of many others with tren and deca based gyno problems (mine was from a 4mohn/mdien combo) that have also seen no results with ai's and serms in combo as well, only to find that the only thing that worked to stop the pain/itching, etc. was dopamine agonists. Seeing as how that more or less mirrors my own situation, and how nolvadex has done little to nothing to help me out, I just think that a shot at reducing prolactin levels is well worth it for myself.

I don't have studies to back this up as you do Bobo, but from the multitude of threads on the subject with users having success in receding gyno with bromo/cabergoline, etc. I came across from browsing through the Anabolex archives, has led me to wanting to give this type of treatment a shot.

The majority of people at Anabolex do not understand how gyno forms and/or how prolactin/progesteron effects gyno. Your estrogen levels will never be nil. AI's only reduce estrogen to about 50% and Nolvadex will in fact raise estrone levels. Nolvadex works by blocking the receptors that are responsible for gyno growth, not decreasing estrogen.

Like I said before, most people think that just because the after effects are reduced that the cause is reduced and that will NOT happen with Bromo or and dopamine agonist.

Sure its worth a shot at reducing the effects of gyno but it will do nothing at reducing the cause.

max silver · 08-23-2004, 02:57 PM

So I take it, for any future cycles, as I know that I am gyno prone, that I should be dosing nolvadex daily throughout the cycle then, as a preventative measure, and to avoid aggravating existing gyno. Is there any use whatsoever then, of utilizing bromo during a cycle before the point which prolactin based symptoms appear? And what of the claims that vitamin b-6 also works as a preventative measure as well?

I just need to go about coming up with an effective plan for battling the gyno flareup that I'm dealing with, and as is probably evident I have been frustrated over the lack of results thusfar. I gave localized topical dht a shot in the form of 3-alpha mixed in absolved, but this hasn't done anything unfortunately other than drying out my nipples, as well as taking vitex, high dose vitamin e, vitamin b-6, nolvadex and liquidex, and still the itching and tenderness resides. I'm just reaching my wits end here, and less than thrilled that I'm likely faced with surgery someday if I want to get rid of lumps I've been "blessed" with.

And sorry about highjacking your thread here Waterlogged.

BryanM · 08-23-2004, 07:19 PM

i had prolactin gyno syptoms discharge from nipples and took vit b6 at 200mg twice daily and 60mg of nolva and it went away in a week.and yes the pain and itching is not the real worry here it is the actual lumps that are permanent. damn ive got gyno and was gonna use 4ohn but now im scared. Estro is actually what causes the lumps prolactin igf and progesterone are just factors that contribute to the symptoms so if you have estro under control there will be no new growth but with the b6 and nolva it will take some time to go away.so stick it out dude how big are the lumps anyway?

WATERLOGGED · 08-23-2004, 07:39 PM

well,not noticeable, i can feel the lump behind my nipple,i was gonna try some bromocriptine, but you say the lump is permanent ? "oh ****" i guess ill just have to run nolva with all my cycles from now on.ive been runnin the nolva @60 for seven days now. will that decrease my gains from this cycle, hell im only in wk 2 of 8-10 or more just depends how good of gains im getting. i added m5aa to decrease circulateing estro. but , doesnt really help. on a good note the m5aa does make me stronger.

**Cosmo Kramer** · 08-23-2004, 07:48 PM

I already answered you about gains.

BryanM · 08-23-2004, 08:19 PM

well i know your not gonna want to staop your cycle so some people have had success with running nolva at 80mg ed for a few months off cycle

Paco · 08-23-2004, 08:55 PM

bromo is cheap, read about the sides though...1.25mg ed or eod is sufficient...it DOES help with gyno by some other mechanism. Don't care what no one says.

**Cosmo Kramer** · 08-23-2004, 10:05 PM

By what mechanism then? I really would love to hear this one...

Paco · 08-23-2004, 10:07 PM

uhh, I don't ****ing know. I just know that on tren and gyno is a problem...somehow bromo helps. Still don't give much of a **** about the scientific studies. Damn near all of what we do is anecdotal at best. What looks good on paper frequently fails to pan out in the real world...that's what's up.

**Cosmo Kramer** · 08-23-2004, 10:12 PM

Whats up is you don't know what the **** you are talking about. Prolactin/progesteron can rise due to hypogonadism (which tren adn deca do very well)and can aggravate the condition when circulting estrogen is present. So if you want to give or advice or recommends something know what the hell you are talking about before you open your piehole.

Thats whats up...

**Cosmo Kramer** · 08-23-2004, 10:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paco

uhh, I don't ****ing know. I just know that on tren and gyno is a problem...somehow bromo helps. Still don't give much of a **** about the scientific studies. Damn near all of what we do is anecdotal at best. What looks good on paper frequently fails to pan out in the real world...that's what's up.

It eleviates the after effects, not the CAUSE! BUt since science is something you don't care about, I won't go into detail.

"uhh, I don't ****ing know"

You got that right.

Paco · 08-23-2004, 10:23 PM

my chiming in on Bromo was an opinion you ass. Look I've read most of your posts...you're well respected...good for you. As far as progesterone...men don't got the equipment to produce it unless messing with some form of a cross-progesterone receptor AAS. You can pull all the studies from PubMed out of your ass if you like...could care less. Bromo does work to reduce prolactin-induced gyno...whether it is somehow caused by estrogen by some pathway...it helps...this is tried and true. But go ahead with the studies...get back to me in 10 years when it's proven...WTF. You might got some pull on this board and that's great for you. I however, could give a **** on any board I'm on. I speak from personal experience. It works for me and others who encounter the same dilemma that I know. Want to disregard it....go ahead...makes no difference to me.

**Cosmo Kramer** · 08-23-2004, 10:30 PM

What the hell are you babbling about now? Men can't produce progesterone? Its produced by the testes and adrenal cortex you dope. If you actually took the time to read the studies you might understand but you obvisouly don't since don't care what anyone else says because you got gyno from prolactin (PROVE IT!). You are the epitome of meathead logic and will just be fodder to the membership on this board.

You are completely clueless and don't know what the hell you are talking about so do us all a favor and keep your recommendations to yourself beause you will only harm the members and weaken the membership as a whole.

You don't even know what the hell is going on with the **** you take yet you want us to listen to your experience. Yeah, thats logic for you.

Moron.

intense · 08-23-2004, 10:44 PM

so is nolvadex the only way to treat it?

**Cosmo Kramer** · 08-23-2004, 10:47 PM

Its not the only way but its the best way that is backed by medical research. Other drugs such as Raloxifen have been used but Tamoxifen showed better results. Then there is always surgery which is a last resort when growth has become too large....(actual breasts)

intense · 08-24-2004, 12:18 AM

what is an effective dosage? Is the Jguns 80mg gyno buster too much?

**Cosmo Kramer** · 08-24-2004, 12:22 AM

I have used that much in the beginning, then tapered. As for needing that much, I really don't know. It probably is overkill.

WATERLOGGED · 08-24-2004, 09:44 AM

thanks for the replies and Bobo, i read your answer now., i must have missed that post.

**Cosmo Kramer** · 08-24-2004, 03:16 PM

No problem mon.

BryanM · 08-24-2004, 03:21 PM

i would really say for a quick thing before you get you hands on something else use 200mg b6 twice daily in junction with the nolva worked for me be paitent it will go away but you stray new growth with the nolva but i can tell your pct is gonna be scary

08-23-2004, 08:55 PM
Paco Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 28 Friends: (0) Leave Comment Rep Power: 0	bromo is cheap, read about the sides though...1.25mg ed or eod is sufficient...it DOES help with gyno by some other mechanism. Don't care what no one says.

08-23-2004, 10:07 PM
Paco Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 28 Friends: (0) Leave Comment Rep Power: 0	uhh, I don't **ing know. I just know that on tren and gyno is a problem...somehow bromo helps. Still don't give much of a ** about the scientific studies. Damn near all of what we do is anecdotal at best. What looks good on paper frequently fails to pan out in the real world...that's what's up.

08-23-2004, 10:23 PM
Paco Join Date: Jun 2003 Posts: 28 Friends: (0) Leave Comment Rep Power: 0	my chiming in on Bromo was an opinion you ass. Look I've read most of your posts...you're well respected...good for you. As far as progesterone...men don't got the equipment to produce it unless messing with some form of a cross-progesterone receptor AAS. You can pull all the studies from PubMed out of your ass if you like...could care less. Bromo does work to reduce prolactin-induced gyno...whether it is somehow caused by estrogen by some pathway...it helps...this is tried and true. But go ahead with the studies...get back to me in 10 years when it's proven...WTF. You might got some pull on this board and that's great for you. I however, could give a **** on any board I'm on. I speak from personal experience. It works for me and others who encounter the same dilemma that I know. Want to disregard it....go ahead...makes no difference to me.

08-23-2004, 10:44 PM
intense Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 20 Friends: (0) Leave Comment Rep Power: 0	so is nolvadex the only way to treat it?

08-24-2004, 12:18 AM
intense Banned Join Date: Feb 2003 Posts: 20 Friends: (0) Leave Comment Rep Power: 0	what is an effective dosage? Is the Jguns 80mg gyno buster too much?