HDL/LDL Cycle and Statin Drugs etc...
- 08-12-2004, 06:27 PM
HDL/LDL Cycle and Statin Drugs etc...
Ok, I've always had a low HDL to LDL ratio.
Was wondering if you guys thought Niaspan (Rx niacin at 500mg) would stress the liver too much on a cycle of Test Cyp and Tren. Cycle will last 12 weeks.
I've got Milk Thistle, RALA and a few other good for the liver products to take with this. I will get my liver profile panel done once a month. So far, everything good except my HDL (which hasn't changed much). My LDL is not that bad....but the ratio is bad.
120/26 was the ratio...again, it hasn't changed...on cycle vs. off cycle so I don't see a reason to stop the cycle...but don't want to stress the liver too much.
what do you think?
- 08-12-2004, 06:41 PM
What does this have to do w/ statin drugs? Don't ever use statins. The studies do not show increased survival time w/ statins. They are bad news. If you use them anyway, always take Q-10 w/ them.
Less than 1g of niacin won't hurt w/ your cycle. Also, your total chol. is so low, that your ratio is skewed. It's really not that bad.
- 08-17-2004, 03:36 PM
I'm using Niaspan 500mg with Crestor 10mg on cycle with an alpha-17, tests, and deca... 5 weeks later.... My AST elevated mildly just outside of ref range... ALT is within range... GGTP and LD did not elevate... offered only as empirical trivia.
As Dr. D. referred.... there is risk of muscle damage with niacin > 1g with the statins.... and pragdymolysis (mispelled thank you) risk is present with the statins which can be extraordinarily painful and potentially lethal as toxins from the muscle tissue are released rapidly..... but I intend to maintain them [statins] in my course and my cardiac risk ratio is worse than yours until my liver data supports withdrawl or my lipid profile supports d/c ing it..
08-17-2004, 04:28 PM
Have you gentlemen had any experiences with red rice yeast + niacin?
My Doc recommended them to me for my hyperlipodemia. My levels (230 ish) were not that far out of the "old" norm, so at this point I refuse to go on statins.
08-18-2004, 07:15 PM
Red yeast rice is merely a "natural" statin. Since their is no FDA oversight of the production quality of any supplements, you never know what is really in a supp.Originally Posted by bioman
However, when I swallow my 20mg of Zocor, I can be sure I am getting what I paid for.
A statin/Niacin combo can be very powerful and very hard on your liver. I believe there is an increased chance of liver and possibly muscle problems with this combo, over either alone.
Or is it just the statin/fibrate combo? CrazyDoc?
08-18-2004, 09:58 PM
I took lipitor for a few days, and i felt like my body was sore, but it may have been me just being sick at the time. so i switched to zocor, and am on my third day of that. If i use Coenzyme Q10 won't that negate teh myopathy (the muscle pain, breakdown) that people experience on statins? I know that statins are horrible for some people with muscle, and can eat it away real fast. Am i safe to assume that by replacing the Coenzyme Q10 that statins reduce to a severely low level in the body by taking 150mg of Coenzyme Q10 a day i will be safe from the musculoskeletal effects? Thanks! Figured i'd get better answers here than from my doctor. Please don't give me your educated guesses either, please have some knowledge on this material.
Have any of you taken zocor or lipitor? if one will cause muscle problems, would the other cause them for you too? Will i know before it's too late if they're ruining my ever-so-muscular body?
Thanks so much!
08-18-2004, 10:39 PM
Your doctor probably didn't tell you that fat doses of Q-10 were in the original patent for Zocor. It was removed at the last minute as a cost saving change, but even the developers realized how crutial it was to supplement. In order to be called a drug, something must be safe and effective. Even though statins do what they are suppose to do, animal studies did not demonstrate increased survival times. That means, you see your numbers falling and think, "yeah Great!" but you die as soon as you would have had you not even used the drug. **** that, I'd rather die of high chol. than drug induced cardiovascular embolism. I'm pretty liberal and have gotten in trouble around here for it, but even I wouldn't touch a statin. It is the 'big lie', don't be fooled.Originally Posted by FOXDIE
08-18-2004, 11:55 PM
Good point...yet the brand I would recommend would be Nature's Plus as it is standardized yeilding a constant percentage of the actives with an independent lab assay in each bottle validating those amounts. Yes you could just pay for the prescription and know what you're getting, yet not everyone has insurance to cover $200 out of pocket for a month supply of Zocor as oppossed to a $15 for a standardized bottle of red yeast rice yeilding the same results...Originally Posted by Greenguy
08-19-2004, 06:02 AM
How much of a "fat dose" of CQ-10 could i tolerate safely each day? And if i used cq10, i would assume all musucalar problems would not occur. But what about the reported memory loss and sexual side effects? Or are these problems that most/all drugs have just they dont affect the majority. Are the statins and even Zetia, the non-statin overrated in terms of danger? I don't want to have permanent side effects years down the road...
What dosages do you guys take for your cholesterol levels?
08-19-2004, 11:46 AM
There have been studies where people with heart conditions safely took 200+ mgs/day. As CoQ10 is great for heart conditions. Not sure what the effective dose would be to prevent muscular problems associated with statin drugs though. I don't think there has been a toxic dose established with CoQ10...will look into that.
08-19-2004, 12:05 PM
Here you go...
In two placebo-controlled, double-blind trials, 100 mg CoQ10 daily resulted in "definitely improved physical performance" in patients with muscular dystrophies and atrophies. "In retrospect," the authors wrote, "a dosage of 100 mg was too low although effective and safe." But even at this low dose, their conclusion was emphatic: "Patients suffering from these muscle dystrophies and the like should be treated with vitamin Q10 indefinitely."
(Folkers K ; Simonsen R (1995) Two successful double-blind trials with coenzyme Q10 (vitamin Q10) on muscular dystrophies and neurogenic atrophies. Biochim Biophys Acta 1271(1):281-6. May 24)
These are studies showing the efficacy and safety at 100mgs/day. Althought the dosages could have been higher, keep in mind these are people with severe muscular conditions. I would assume 100 mgs per day would be a good dose. Although I would take it with food or something containing fat because fats help with the absorption of CoQ10.
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