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    I am a 24 year old male, 5'7", 185. ive been working out for about three years, great diet, great workout routine. ive just reached my peak. ive been reading and researching for a few months and ive come up with a stack for my first cycle. i have the list of possible gear to purchase in front of me as i type, and i was looking for some advice. these are my options.

    test -
    1. enthanate (250mg)
    2. cypionate (200mg)
    3. propinate (100mg)

    with that for mass-
    1. deca (200mg)
    2. equipoise (300 mg)

    also on the list as possible choices...
    1. winstral (100mg)
    2. dianobol (25mg) [which is what i had planned on using]
    3. trenobane (75mg)

    this link is what i was going to base my stack around, but i really wanted to get some feedback before i commited to it.
    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catsample.htm
    my main goal is mass. i want hard, solid mass and i am looking to put on 15-20 lbs (thats the goal im setting for myself). i really want to break 200. i also havent found a few things i was looking for in the forum. im looking for dosages (as far as how many ccs to use and how often and the best times) and also ive been looking for a solid post cycle therapy plan(i plan on using clomid 50 mg tabs). thanks in advance...

    chris

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    Great post bro, nice to see people doing homework first and gear second. You can say that there are 2 schools of thoughts on first cycle. First is the test only crowd (the majority I think) that say slow and simple are the way to go. This giving you a chance to see how you respond to the gear, gain cycle experience, and so on. There is a lot of merit to this approach although it’s not my first choice. For a test only cycle 500mg a week is fine.


    For medium length cycle test only
    500mg a week of test enthanate or cypionate for weeks 1 to 10
    10mg of nolvadex weeks 1 to 10
    Start PCT week 12 with 40mg of nolvadex ED for 2 weeks then 20mg ED for another 2 weeks. No need for hcg for this type of cycle.

    The injection schedule for this is simple. For the enthanate it would be 1cc every Monday and Thursday for a total of 500mg a week. For the cypionate it would be 1.25cc every Monday and Thursday for a total of 500mg a week. If you want a longer cycle then above then just extent the times out.

    For a short cycle test only (I like short cycles)
    525mg of test prop a week (150mg EOD, 1.5cc) weeks 1 to 6
    10mg of nolvadex weeks 1 to 6
    Start PCT week 7 with 40mg of nolvadex ED for 2 weeks then 20mg ED for another 2 weeks. No need for hcg for this type of cycle.

    The second school of thought is that steroids work much better stacked together and since your going to take the plunge you might as well go ahead and do a full cycle and reap all the benefits doing so. And outside of money it doesn’t really cost you any more (in terms of sides/health) to do so if your careful about what you add. For example test is generally bad for your ligaments and tendons. Deca and EQ are good for them (as well as your joints). Adding ether to test will improve your cycle and help tendons and such to some extent to keep up with your strength (they will not keep up BTW, that’s one reason why roid users are prone to injury). Of course if you add something harsh, dbol, fina, winny, drol, or the like the above will not be true.

    Deca vs EQ.
    Both are good stacked with test or even each other. But they do have different effects though. Deca is good for gaining mass, joints, tendons extra. The cons are that it cause you to hold some water (not really that much but that was just me), take a long time to kick in, and it tends to shut down most people. HCG is recommended to run with this. EQ is good for tendons and ligaments, not holding water, harding up, and increased hunger (don’t underestimate this one if your bulking). The cons are little growth, EQ takes about 6 week to start fully working, and a not a lot of bang for your buck. If you want mass I would defiantly go for the deca,

    As for the other 3 you listed forget them for the first cycle. Well, go ahead with the dbol as your using long esters and could us the kick up front.

    I also love the bread and butter cycle. There are some things to be changed though as the cycle itself is old and we have better methods now. Here is a modern version of it

    500Test cyp a week weeks 1 to 15
    300mg of Deca a week weeks 1 to 14
    30mg of Dbol ED for weeks 1 to 6 (15mg twice a day)
    10mg of nolvadex ED weeks 1 to 16
    250 to 500 iu of HCG twice a week as needed for weeks 4 to 16.
    Start PCT week 17 with 40mg of nolvadex ED for 2 weeks then 20mg ED for another 2 weeks
    This would be my choice here. All the changes I made are explained in the links below. If you wanted to you can swap out the deca for EQ too. Good luck on your cycle, let us know how it turns out.

    Some good links to go read
    For PCT info http://anabolicminds.com/forum/show...swales+protocol
    For info on how esters act and work this is the best article I have read so far: http://www.mesomorphosis.com/article...oid-esters.htm
    My thoughts on long esters and cycle length: http://www.superiormuscle.com/vbulle...threadid=15865
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    Kick ass post, both of you. That's some great info Skye! Thanks for sharing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by krs41
    I am a 24 year old male, 5'7", 185. ive been working out for about three years, great diet, great workout routine. ive just reached my peak. ive been reading and researching for a few months and ive come up with a stack for my first cycle. i have the list of possible gear to purchase in front of me as i type, and i was looking for some advice. these are my options.

    test -
    1. enthanate (250mg)
    2. cypionate (200mg)
    3. propinate (100mg)

    with that for mass-
    1. deca (200mg)
    2. equipoise (300 mg)

    also on the list as possible choices...
    1. winstral (100mg)
    2. dianobol (25mg) [which is what i had planned on using]
    3. trenobane (75mg)

    this link is what i was going to base my stack around, but i really wanted to get some feedback before i commited to it.
    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catsample.htm
    my main goal is mass. i want hard, solid mass and i am looking to put on 15-20 lbs (thats the goal im setting for myself). i really want to break 200. i also havent found a few things i was looking for in the forum. im looking for dosages (as far as how many ccs to use and how often and the best times) and also ive been looking for a solid post cycle therapy plan(i plan on using clomid 50 mg tabs). thanks in advance...

    chris
    IMHO 5'7 and 185 pounds with a wopping 3 yrs of training why do you feel you have reached your peak? im not downing you, just wondering why you feel this way? you have'nt reached your peak by a loooonnnggg shot bro, so i say unless you plan on hitting the stage within a year, i say train natural for three more yrs, then go to AAS, build the most muscular base you can then go to AAS, and you still have room for a lot of natural growth, especially for only training three yrs. this is just my opinion so take it for what its worth, but i think you will make better gains in the long run if you take my advice.
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    skye,

    thanks so much for the abundance of information. that was my first post and i was kind of nervous about it. thanks for all of the help.

    i think what i am going to go with is the bread and butter that you suggested (the updated version). i am going with the deca for sure (im really wanting that added mass). i just have a few more questions if you dont mind...
    the gear i have is listed as so -
    cypionate (200mg 10cc)
    deca (200mg 10cc)
    deca (200mg 50cc)
    deca (300 mg 10cc)
    dianobol (25mg 100tab)
    dianabol (25mg 50cc)
    i dont anything about pricing so i may be getting raped here, but this is the only person i know in my area. are these outrageous? with this, how much should i get, of which, and how should i structure my dosing? also, what is the "HCG" that you refered to doing weeks 4-16 if needed?
    im headed to the links you posted as soon as i post this. thanks for those and all of your other help and information. i was really worried about posting all of that info being my first post, didnt know what kind of response i would get. thanks though. im glad i found somewhere to ask questions and seek advice without someone reminding me of how ignorant i am...

    thanks again,

    chris
    Last edited by krs41; 08-08-2004 at 01:19 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by krs41
    skye,

    thanks so much for the abundance of information. that was my first post and i was kind of nervous about it. thanks for all of the help.

    i think what i am going to go with is the bread and butter that you suggested (the updated version). i am going with the deca for sure (im really wanting that added mass). i just have a few more questions if you dont mind...
    the gear i have is listed as so -
    cypionate (200mg 10cc)
    deca (200mg 10cc)
    deca (200mg 50cc)
    deca (300 mg 10cc)
    dianobol (25mg 100tab)
    dianabol (25mg 50cc)
    i dont anything about pricing so i may be getting raped here, but this is the only person i know in my area. are these outrageous? with this, how much should i get, of which, and how should i structure my dosing? also, what is the "HCG" that you refered to doing weeks 4-16 if needed?
    im headed to the links you posted as soon as i post this. thanks for those and all of your other help and information. i was really worried about posting all of that info being my first post, didnt know what kind of response i would get. thanks though. im glad i found somewhere to ask questions and seek advice without someone reminding me of how ignorant i am...

    thanks again,

    chris
    your getting raped bro!!!! 10cc of test cyp you should pay anywhere from 35-60 bucks and 10cc of deca anywhere from 40-80 bucks.
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    bro i would seriously take my advice given above.... and in those three yrs learn all you can......
    YOU HAVE A LOT TO LEARN YOUNG JEDI!
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    krs41 you might want to edit ur post and get rid of the prices of gear because i believe that they are not allowed to be posted..just lettin ya know so u dont get in trouble from the mods
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    thanks keith for the info, took care of that....
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    yup... you're dealing with some wicked 'gym' prices. He must be getting a very nice mark up, even if the goods were human grade amps... which it isn't. This guy's ready. Just reading his post and the response he has to some of the suggestions he's gotten back. Go with some cyp or enanthate at 500mg/week with dianbol being stacked for the first 5 weeks. Thats simple and have given countless first time users great results. I dont find stacking deca or eq even necessary. For your future cycles however, dealing with some of the short esters would be nice.
    Sage
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    also just got word that the sustanin will be available by the end of the week. is this a better test that i should think of running rather than the cyp? still waiting on skyes response! thanks guys for the help and all of the input. it is all valued and considered.

    chris
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    sustanon is a waste of time. stick to test enan or test cyp like the other guys have suggested.
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    i got two bottles of enthanate 250mg (10cc each) and a bottle of deca 200 mg (15cc). my plan now is to take 250 mg of enthanate and 200 mg of deca on monday and then again on friday. i have clomid on hand in case and def. for the pct. a few more questions...

    can i put both the deca and enthan in the same syringe and shoot them both at the same time (all in one shot)?

    does this sound good? tried to take the advice given to me. thought id save the d-bol/cyp/deca stack for another day. but hows this plan sound to everyone?

    thanks for all the help guys.

    chris
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    yeah same syringe is ok
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    Quote Originally Posted by krs41
    i got two bottles of enthanate 250mg (10cc each) and a bottle of deca 200 mg (15cc). my plan now is to take 250 mg of enthanate and 200 mg of deca on monday and then again on friday. i have clomid on hand in case and def. for the pct. a few more questions...

    can i put both the deca and enthan in the same syringe and shoot them both at the same time (all in one shot)?

    does this sound good? tried to take the advice given to me. thought id save the d-bol/cyp/deca stack for another day. but hows this plan sound to everyone?

    thanks for all the help guys.

    chris
    will work great. if your using 300mg a week deca then just take 1cc of test and mix it with .75cc of deca. If you want to run 400mg a week just take 1cc of each. Mondays and Thursdays (or your prefrance).

    500Test cyp a week weeks 1 to 15
    300mg (Or 400mg if you perfer) of Deca a week weeks 1 to 14
    10mg of nolvadex ED weeks 1 to 16
    250 to 500 iu of HCG twice a week as needed for weeks 4 to 16.
    Start PCT week 17 with 40mg of nolvadex ED for 2 weeks then 20mg ED for another 2 weeks

    This is what I would do. Anyway HCG is Human Chorionic Gonadotrophin is used primarily to prevent or treat testicluler atrophy. Its cheap and if your source doesn't have any (check the price first with a mod here bro) you can order the stuff online from pharmacies or research companys. Swales recomends using it preventively and that works good for me even though I have only had the problem once. He discribes people as feeling better doing this and I do. HCG is not a scheduled drug so if you have touble finding it let me know.

    This is bigcats profile on it, a little outdated but like all his stuff it is good info http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/cathcg.htm

    Nolvadex is better then clomid and cheap as hell. checkout the board sponsers.

    if you need help on the shots this site is gold http://spotinjections.com/index3.htm
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub
    sustanon is a waste of time. stick to test enan or test cyp like the other guys have suggested.
    Agreed, it doesn't even work as intended. also bro I didn't see the prices (you aren't suposed to post them) but if they were way out of line then you might want to wait. I have seen some pretty bad ones before. Just pm a mod for a price check.
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    skye,

    youve been an unbeleiveable source of information and a trmendous help. i cant thank you enough. you were exactly what i was looking for. an educated and helpful voice. im starting this afternoon and going mon/thursday as you suggested. ill keep you posted as i go through the cycle, probably pm. thanks again for your help, and everyone else who contributed!

    chris
  

  
 

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