Great info Id like to share for New users.

Craiginator

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Let's also start by saying that you don't have to run post cycle therapy.........you also don't have to wipe your ass after taking a dump: it's just a really really good idea to do these things 

The first thing we need to understand is what is going on with our bodies when we're taking anabolic steroids:
Exogeneous anabolic hormones (or derivatives of anabolic hormones) are being brought into your system. This causes the body to take a number of responsive actions. The first and foremost (as you already know) is increased muscle mass. Unfortunately, other things are also going on that aren't so great 

When an enzyme or hormone is brought exogeneously into the system, chemical balances shift around to attain a certain equilibrium. This is a chemical concept known as Le Chatelier's Principle of Chemical Equilibria. In a nutshell, your body will increase production of estrogen, cortisol, and other hormones in response to heightened testosterone levels, while simultaneously slowering (or completely stopping) natural production of testosterone. Biologist call this negative feedback.......biology sucks doesn't it?

Le Chatelier's Principle for the scientifically impaired:
Let's pretend A and B react to make C (can't get much simpler than that).

A + B --------> C

So we have a mixture containing A, B, and C. According to LeChatlier's principle, if we add more C to the mixture, the amounts of A and B will increase. If we remove some of the C from the mixture, A and B will decrease. And if we were to add A, B, or a combination of the two, C will increase. Still with me here? Good.


What's going on when we come off a cycle:
Ok, so while we're on the cycle, are natural test production is going down to compensate for the exogeneous test intake, and our production of other steroid hormones (i.e. Estrogen, Cortisol, etc.) is going up to compensate for the heightened test levels. When we come off a cycle, we cease intake of exogeneous testosterone. In other words, we have very low test levels, and very high cortisol and estrogen levels: it's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what we had while starting our cycle.

REMEMBER Le Chatelier's Principle because this is where it gets really important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. Ok, I'm gonna say it (and bold it) again because it's just that important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. It is a very common misconception that we want to eradicate estrogen . High estrogen levels play an integral part in Post Cycle therapy. That's right, you want to welcome high estrogen with open freaking arms, but there's a trick to it. And that trick is the almighty SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator).

SERM's: the foundation of post cycle therapy:
Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators are (and damn well should be) the foundation for any proper post-cycle therapy plan. A post cycle therapy plan without them, isn't a post cycle therapy plan: it's a bunch of crap you decided to take after doing a cycle. The purpose of a SERM is to block the negative effects estrogen, while your hormone levels go back to equilibrium.

SERM's are prescription drugs, and are NOT SOLD IN SUPPLEMENT STORES. In fact, there are only 3 ways ( can think of) in which you can obtain a SERM:

1) Through a Doctor's Prescription.
2) Through the Black Market (a.k.a. illegally)
3) As a research chemicals intended for use in lab rats.


The Different SERM's:

Tamoxifen (Nolvadex):
Reputation: Most popular SERM for PCT
Pros: Cheap. Effective for gyno prevention.
Cons: Heptatoxicity. Studies have shown it to lower IGF levels (I don't feel like citing, but it's about 20% decrease...IMO no biggie).
Popular Dosage (for a 4-week cycle): 40/40/20/20
Note: Tamoxifen Citrate is less potent, and should be dosed at an extra 30%.

Clomiphene Citrate (clomid):
Reputation: Second most popular. Usually taken the first week or so to speed up Testosterone recovery with Tamoxifen being taken the whole therapy.
Pros: Better than Tamoxifen for HTPA regernation. Less heptatoxicity. Does not lower IGF.
Cons: Less effective against gyno. Can cause emotional issues. May Cause blurred vision. Hot Flashes.
Popular Dosage (for a 4-week cycle): 100-200mg/100mg/50mg/50mg

Toremifene:
Reputation: Very popular on this board 
Pros: Much less toxic.
Con's: $$$$$expensive$$$$$
Popular Dosages (for a 4-week cycle): 120-240mg/120mg/60mg/30mg

Raloxifene:
Reputation: Very effective against gyno
Pros: Strong protection against gyno. Less toxic than Tamoxifen.
Con's: Cost Restricting. Can cause abnormal blood clotting in the eyes, lunges, and legs. May also cause hot flashes trouble breathing, and blurred vision.
Popular Dosages: (for a 4-week cycle): 120-240mg/120mg/60mg/30mg


Moving down the PCT Hierarchy: Cortisol Control
Excess cortisol can be damaging to your newly found muscle mass. Because of this, it is a good idea to use something to block or lower the excessive cortisol levels. Always start high, and taper your way down. Here's what we have to work with:

B-Androstenetriol (b-triol): This is one of the better cortisol suppressors. It has a terrible oral bioavailability, and should be taken transdermally. Dosages range from 25-50mg every 12 hours.

Methyl B-Androstenetriol (mb-triol): This is an enhanced version of b-triol designed for oral use. Because it is not an androgenic steroid, there is minimal heptatoxicity associated with it's alkylation. Found in the following products: Retain (by Anabolic Xtreme), Restore (by ALRI), Thyrogen-X (by ALRI)

7-Hydroxy-DHEA: Another potent cortisol suppressor with great oral bioavailability. Found in the following products: Lean Xtreme (by Designer Supplements), Reduce XT (by SNS)

7-oxo-DHEA (7-keto-DHEA): Still a decent contender, this has a terrible oral availability and an even worse half life (2 hours). This is best taken transdermally, where such effects can by bypassed.

Cissus: Unlike the above, the components of Cissus do not suppress Cortisol, but rather block cortisol receptors (better than Nandrolone or Dianabol according to some studies). Dosages vary significantly (pending extracts). SuperCissus by USPLabs is a high quality Cissus product.

Branched Chain Amino Acids: These should be a staple to begin with, but are a great anti-catabolic that mitigates the muscle-wasting effects of cortisol.

At the bottom of the PCT hierarchy there's AI's, Test Booster's, and other 'natural' anabolics
Way too many different things going on in here to go into too much detail. Just a word of caution (and this is my personal opinion), but if you're post cycle plan starts to look like a constitutional ammendment: you're over-doing it. And the worst part is if something goes wrong, you won't have a damn clue what caused it.

Honorable mentions of this part of the hierarchy:
Jungle Warfare (by ALRI)
MassFX (by Anabolic Xtreme)
Hyperdrol (by Anabolic Xtreme)
Ecdysterone/Turkesterone
Creatine Monohydrate

Can you tell I was bored after work today?
 
jbryand101b

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ah, that is an old post. back when i was on bb.com i posted that up in my pct info thread, along with other articles.

but jungle warefare contains 6-dehydromethyltestosterone, or i should say, contained it, then it had a ph to it, now it's supposedly all herbal.
 
TheMeatus101

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I was bout to be like "great first post" but then dude above said he already read it. Still good info, never read this before.
 
jbryand101b

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i think the title is pct for dummies or something like that.

looked it up, here it is, i have a whole bunch of pct stuff put together back when i was new to all this. (still am compared to others)


i'll give the source credit since the op didn't:

Stupid People's Guide to Post Cycle Therapy
By Jordan Blackburn
 

MakaveliThaDon

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ah, that is an old post. back when i was on bb.com i posted that up in my pct info thread, along with other articles.

but jungle warefare contains 6-dehydromethyltestosterone, or i should say, contained it, then it had a ph to it, now it's supposedly all herbal.
VERY intersting jb. Can you elaborate a bit on 6-dehydromethyltestosterone? I was one of the poor schmucks that took the original JW when no one knew what was REALLY in it.
 
jbryand101b

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VERY intersting jb. Can you elaborate a bit on 6-dehydromethyltestosterone? I was one of the poor schmucks that took the original JW when no one knew what was REALLY in it.
ah, I see, thanks for the search advice, I think, when I started researching into what is in jw and the sneaky chemical name I got sucked into a black hole of disputes from pa, alri, others as to what it is, and no one seems to know, is it nothing, is it a methylated atd, is it aded? is it a weak androgen? jesus, this company is still in business. this is crazy. It makes me feel new and very gullable to the sup industry when I know im not, and not all companies are like this, just cant believe a company would be this misleading. now im trying to decide if I should post up all the info on j.w. just to inform other users what it is. I feel like I should.

there has been a ****load of talk and debate about JW's ingredients on bb.com and am.com
whether it is a steroid or not and ALRI wrote this after a week or two into demanding a clarification of JW's ADED ingredient

Originally Posted by ALRI
Please let me get this straight. ...


... Now, JW has an analog of ATD in it called 17a-methyl-5a-dehydroetiocholane-4,6-dien-3-one-17-ol = 6-dehydromethyltestosterone. It certainly could have anabolic value if dosed pretty high but certainly not comparable to D-Bol any more than 11-oxo-Testosterone is an illegal hard core steroid just because it is a testosterone analog. ....


1) D-bol= 17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy-1,4-androstadien-3-one (1-dehydromethyltestosterone)

2) Boldenone= 1,4-androstadiene-3-one-17β-ol

3) Oral turinabol= 4-chloro-17?-hydroxy-17a-methylandrosta-1,4-dien-3-one (4-dehydromethyltestosterone)

4) ATD=1,4,6-androstratrien-3,17-dione

5) JW compound =17a-methyl-5a-dehydroetiocholane-4,6-dien-3-one-17-ol = 6-dehydromethyltestosterone (JW compound)


this whole debate started after people reported gyno and natty test shut down

from using an AI= aromatase inhibitor (shouldnt be producing gyno side effects)
ive been doing ALOT of research after getting JW<-didnt take it (thank god)

"JW = ADED = 6-dehydromethyltestosterone, which is 40% as androgenic and 60% as anabolic as methyltestosterone, mg per mg"

-------------------
man, f**k it, there is too much craziness in this, b.l. dont take this anywhere near your pct like others have told me, now I can see why they couldn't explain why. looks like it is 40% as androgenic and 60% as anabolic to methyl test. it is a weak anabolic, and could have similar effect of a steroid if taken in high enough dosages. I will never buy a product from alri, no matter how good it works. this is sad. im sure this is all old news to most, thanks for the heads up.
man, looking back at this thread, ah, it's embarrassing.

i have seen two nomenclatures that are all f'd up on jw, when I asked pa about them, he said it looked like one was 6-dmt, the other looked like methyl atd, which would convert into 6-dmt.

I believe nutra actually has some jw with the aded ingredient in stock, on sale for like 23 bucks or something.
 
Craiginator

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As I said great info,thank you. I copied it and saved it for future reference. I joined here the other day and came across it in my docs and figured I'd re-post it because it was really informative.
 
Craiginator

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Thanks for posting that info again. Id like to ask for your help if you may. I just bought some Mdrol I wanted to do a cycle of it. How should I go about doing a cycle of it? What do I need or should take from beginning to end. I'd really appreciate your help.
 
TheMeatus101

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Thanks for posting that info again. Id like to ask for your help if you may. I just bought some Mdrol I wanted to do a cycle of it. How should I go about doing a cycle of it? What do I need or should take from beginning to end. I'd really appreciate your help.
What do you mean? Like PCT, Cycle Assist, the basics? Or you talkin' bout' something like an AI or what?

OBVIOUSLY you need some type of Cycle Support throughout the entire cycle, and if have enough run through your PCT (a SERM).

You purchased it so i'm pretty sure you know the power that is...SUPERDROL!!! You know how potent it is im assuming.
 

henryv

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Let's also start by saying that you don't have to run post cycle therapy.........you also don't have to wipe your ass after taking a dump: it's just a really really good idea to do these things 

The first thing we need to understand is what is going on with our bodies when we're taking anabolic steroids:
Exogeneous anabolic hormones (or derivatives of anabolic hormones) are being brought into your system. This causes the body to take a number of responsive actions. The first and foremost (as you already know) is increased muscle mass. Unfortunately, other things are also going on that aren't so great 

When an enzyme or hormone is brought exogeneously into the system, chemical balances shift around to attain a certain equilibrium. This is a chemical concept known as Le Chatelier's Principle of Chemical Equilibria. In a nutshell, your body will increase production of estrogen, cortisol, and other hormones in response to heightened testosterone levels, while simultaneously slowering (or completely stopping) natural production of testosterone. Biologist call this negative feedback.......biology sucks doesn't it?

Le Chatelier's Principle for the scientifically impaired:
Let's pretend A and B react to make C (can't get much simpler than that).

A + B --------> C

So we have a mixture containing A, B, and C. According to LeChatlier's principle, if we add more C to the mixture, the amounts of A and B will increase. If we remove some of the C from the mixture, A and B will decrease. And if we were to add A, B, or a combination of the two, C will increase. Still with me here? Good.


What's going on when we come off a cycle:
Ok, so while we're on the cycle, are natural test production is going down to compensate for the exogeneous test intake, and our production of other steroid hormones (i.e. Estrogen, Cortisol, etc.) is going up to compensate for the heightened test levels. When we come off a cycle, we cease intake of exogeneous testosterone. In other words, we have very low test levels, and very high cortisol and estrogen levels: it's the EXACT OPPOSITE of what we had while starting our cycle.

REMEMBER Le Chatelier's Principle because this is where it gets really important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. Ok, I'm gonna say it (and bold it) again because it's just that important. When we have an excess of one hormone, the others will start shifting around, to attain a certain equilibrium. It is a very common misconception that we want to eradicate estrogen . High estrogen levels play an integral part in Post Cycle therapy. That's right, you want to welcome high estrogen with open freaking arms, but there's a trick to it. And that trick is the almighty SERM (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulator).

SERM's: the foundation of post cycle therapy:
Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators are (and damn well should be) the foundation for any proper post-cycle therapy plan. A post cycle therapy plan without them, isn't a post cycle therapy plan: it's a bunch of crap you decided to take after doing a cycle. The purpose of a SERM is to block the negative effects estrogen, while your hormone levels go back to equilibrium.

SERM's are prescription drugs, and are NOT SOLD IN SUPPLEMENT STORES. In fact, there are only 3 ways ( can think of) in which you can obtain a SERM:

1) Through a Doctor's Prescription.
2) Through the Black Market (a.k.a. illegally)
3) As a research chemicals intended for use in lab rats.


The Different SERM's:

Tamoxifen (Nolvadex):
Reputation: Most popular SERM for PCT
Pros: Cheap. Effective for gyno prevention.
Cons: Heptatoxicity. Studies have shown it to lower IGF levels (I don't feel like citing, but it's about 20% decrease...IMO no biggie).
Popular Dosage (for a 4-week cycle): 40/40/20/20
Note: Tamoxifen Citrate is less potent, and should be dosed at an extra 30%.

Clomiphene Citrate (clomid):
Reputation: Second most popular. Usually taken the first week or so to speed up Testosterone recovery with Tamoxifen being taken the whole therapy.
Pros: Better than Tamoxifen for HTPA regernation. Less heptatoxicity. Does not lower IGF.
Cons: Less effective against gyno. Can cause emotional issues. May Cause blurred vision. Hot Flashes.
Popular Dosage (for a 4-week cycle): 100-200mg/100mg/50mg/50mg

Toremifene:
Reputation: Very popular on this board 
Pros: Much less toxic.
Con's: $$$$$expensive$$$$$
Popular Dosages (for a 4-week cycle): 120-240mg/120mg/60mg/30mg

Raloxifene:
Reputation: Very effective against gyno
Pros: Strong protection against gyno. Less toxic than Tamoxifen.
Con's: Cost Restricting. Can cause abnormal blood clotting in the eyes, lunges, and legs. May also cause hot flashes trouble breathing, and blurred vision.
Popular Dosages: (for a 4-week cycle): 120-240mg/120mg/60mg/30mg


Moving down the PCT Hierarchy: Cortisol Control
Excess cortisol can be damaging to your newly found muscle mass. Because of this, it is a good idea to use something to block or lower the excessive cortisol levels. Always start high, and taper your way down. Here's what we have to work with:

B-Androstenetriol (b-triol): This is one of the better cortisol suppressors. It has a terrible oral bioavailability, and should be taken transdermally. Dosages range from 25-50mg every 12 hours.

Methyl B-Androstenetriol (mb-triol): This is an enhanced version of b-triol designed for oral use. Because it is not an androgenic steroid, there is minimal heptatoxicity associated with it's alkylation. Found in the following products: Retain (by Anabolic Xtreme), Restore (by ALRI), Thyrogen-X (by ALRI)

7-Hydroxy-DHEA: Another potent cortisol suppressor with great oral bioavailability. Found in the following products: Lean Xtreme (by Designer Supplements), Reduce XT (by SNS)

7-oxo-DHEA (7-keto-DHEA): Still a decent contender, this has a terrible oral availability and an even worse half life (2 hours). This is best taken transdermally, where such effects can by bypassed.

Cissus: Unlike the above, the components of Cissus do not suppress Cortisol, but rather block cortisol receptors (better than Nandrolone or Dianabol according to some studies). Dosages vary significantly (pending extracts). SuperCissus by USPLabs is a high quality Cissus product.

Branched Chain Amino Acids: These should be a staple to begin with, but are a great anti-catabolic that mitigates the muscle-wasting effects of cortisol.

At the bottom of the PCT hierarchy there's AI's, Test Booster's, and other 'natural' anabolics
Way too many different things going on in here to go into too much detail. Just a word of caution (and this is my personal opinion), but if you're post cycle plan starts to look like a constitutional ammendment: you're over-doing it. And the worst part is if something goes wrong, you won't have a damn clue what caused it.

Honorable mentions of this part of the hierarchy:
Jungle Warfare (by ALRI)
MassFX (by Anabolic Xtreme)
Hyperdrol (by Anabolic Xtreme)
Ecdysterone/Turkesterone
Creatine Monohydrate

Can you tell I was bored after work today?
I stopped reading at "slowering".
 

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