And who said oral fina sucks.........

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    And who said oral fina sucks.........


    I aint even working my legs and already within a day and half of starting my hamstrings are slightly sore as if i had worked them a few days ago LOL! It could be that i haven't worked my legs in a month so the androgens are just putting the muscle back due to muscle memory, I already put on 4 lbs in 2 days and ive only done one workout(chest) since starting on the night of the 3rd! I don't think ive gained any fat or its been very minimal.


    You gotta know how to use the orals effectively( timing, dosages, frontloading etc etc). A wise man never tells his secrets hehehe.

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    Originally posted by pjorstad
    I aint even working my legs and already within a day and half of starting my hamstrings are slightly sore as if i had worked them a few days ago LOL! It could be that i haven't worked my legs in a month so the androgens are just putting the muscle back due to muscle memory, I already put on 4 lbs in 2 days and ive only done one workout(chest) since starting on the night of the 3rd! I don't think ive gained any fat or its been very minimal.


    You gotta know how to use the orals effectively( timing, dosages, frontloading etc etc). A wise man never tells his secrets hehehe.
    ????

    Do tell...forget that "wise man never tells" bull****.  This is a discussion forum where EVERYTHING you post is analyzed by peer review.  Obviosuly, if you know something that will help other bros publish it here and let's have a crack at it.  As you know, this is groundbreaking work since the majority of oral tren users say it is ****.  Well, they may be wrong and you may be the only person on this planet that has gotten it right.  So, enlighten us...

    Chemo
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    I was joking around about the secret part


    Seriously though big daddy chemo a lot ofpeople are saying orals are ok and my observation is the ones that say they don't work that well are making some big mistakes.


    Im frontloading between 300-350 for the first 5 days, after that im going down to 240 mg(12 pellets) for the rest of cycle. The first mistake is a lot are doing less and you should do more in the first few days to get it in your sytstem faster which can be done with orals. 2nd a lot of people are doing it only 2 times a day. Im doing it split up 4 different dosages. Also i use my highest dosage before my workout this is VERY important probably one of the biggest reasons why people don't see as good results on orals as they should. ANother huge mistake is post workout(3 hours about after your preworkout dose) you should use your 2nd highest dosage of the day. the other 2 dosages should be lower.

    An example of how i would do it on a WORKOUT day for the first 5 days is

    2 pellets in the morning at wakeup 6 pre workout 4 postworkout and then 3 pellets at another time and probably in the first 2 days of starting 1 to 2pellets in the middle of the night.
    •   
       

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    Smile ROFL


    I think that 4 pounds is from Ben N Jerry's and not some oral induced workout rage.
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    Maybe you should take them with a teaspoon of flax for a 'ethergel' effect. Just a thought. Good luck with your cycle dude.
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    FLAX!!


    No use butter!!!

    You could have doubled your "gains"
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    Interesting pogue. Most of the time i try to take it with fat in the meal. Will that be good enough???


    As for psychological i don't notice awhole lot except at night i can tell my blood pressure and heart is slightly elevated but for the most part my sleep isn't really effected yet. Its in the early stages so myblood levels aren't saturated yet.


    Hey a lot of its water weight milo, maybe some food weight, maybe some fat, but there is some muscle in theire too and im sore as hell(previously wasn't getting sore and if i did it was nothing like this). Contrary to popular belief milo fina DOES add water weight, in fact all androgens do by increasing red blood volume.


    Anyways well see how it goes. Ill keep everyone updated as we move a long
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    Re: FLAX!!


    Actually milo having a very high dosage preworkout is so important its not funny. Thats like saying a girl scout can gointo the gym lift weights and then AFTER she is done will all the sudden gain muscle just because she took some fina AFTERWARDS(other thenthe obvious muscle correlation due to hormone changes)

    High anabolics BEFORE AND DURING WORKOUT is THEE reason for muscle gains. You need them 2nd highest postworkout TOO to keep protein synthesis and an anbolic environment when cortisol levels are elevatedand protein synthesis is starting to kick in.
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    hmmm


    uhhhhh.......

    errr...

    ummmm...

    I soooo wish I had the time to respond properly to this.

    During my degree program... I studied steroid chemistry for two years as part of my thesis (majored in Molcular Bio with a minor in biochem).... so that being said..

    errr.....

    ummmm.......

    COMPARED TO IM OR EVEN TRANSDERMALS ORAL FINA SUCKS.

    yes Im sure you may have gotten results.... going from nothing to ANYTHING will help..

    but imagine what would have happened if you would have went out and bought yourself a damn kit (or homebrewed) and shoved a needle in your ass.

    BTW its physiologically IMPOSSIBLE to gain 4lbs of anything except water in four days.

    if you dont beleive me... just work out the Kcal content of 4lbs of fat and muscle and tell us again how you gained 4 lbs.

    Dont get me wrong Im happier than a ***got in jail that you love Fina... but just keep in mind that if oral = good for you... than IM = 10 TIMES GOOD

    Ive tried both methods and I took a whole hell of a lot of fina..
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    COMPARED TO IM OR EVEN TRANSDERMALS ORAL FINA SUCKS.

    Thats nice with the degrees and all but im not impressed. Ill listen to patrick arnold and big cat over you.

    According to patrick arnold with the ESTER left a lone transdermal fina is 20 percent MAX , chewed and swallowd its 20-30 percent. Add the factor of convenience, price, and the ability to frontload much faster in the first 2 days with oral, it surpasses transdermal with flying colors when the ester is left a lone.


    And i didn't say 4 lbs of muscle i say a lot was water and food weight but i did definitely get some ENHANCED muscle gains already.
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    Personally, if I was gonna try oral fina I'd either try the flax method I mentioned above or make some cyclo fina.

    I think oral fina will probably work, but you'll have to take a lot and its probably not very cost effective.
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    As said by patrick arnold oral is better then transdermal fina if you leave the ester a lone. He has a study to prove his point.

    With transdermals you have to use a messy thing and its a huge hassle and the cost is extra too. It takes even longer to frontload because of the slower absorption and you can't even vary the dosage as outlined above, which is niceto do. Also orals lower SBHG which is very nice too.
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    Originally posted by pjorstad
    As said by patrick arnold oral is better then transdermal fina if you leave the ester a lone. He has a study to prove his point.

    Which he has yet to post. I asked him myself a while back and he said the study isn't specific. His statement of "oral is better than trans" was pertaning to his transdermal which is only about 15% because it was an inferior formula. I've done fina everyway you can and oral does work but not as well as the trans I've used with BDC gels, not to mention its less expensive. You'll get results but not as well as trans and you seem to forget the taxing your liver will take with fina pellets.


    If anyone is wondering I did 15 pellets per day and saw ok results. I used much less with BDC gel and got better results. The only reason I used oral was because I got the carts for really REALLY cheap. I wouldn't do it again because its just too expensive. I got more cramping and back pain with oral fina than anything else. Don't know why.
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    Ok thanks for your experience. Oral i think is probably better the first 2 days to get the system blood levels up faster. But since based on your experience you have seen better with less ill try the dsmo method and saran wrap. Ill try 12 pellets split up in 2 dosages per day starting this evening. Ill see how it goes.
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    Screw it i just put a teaspoon of dsmo, yikes i didn't realize how much a teaspoon is it spreads over my whole upper body LOL, that **** burns and stinks! Im sticking with oral, im blowing up fast , just because igot great genetics doesn't mean you gotta hate me LOL! J/K



    Heres one guys view on dsmo vs oral from gotfina messageboard. A lot say oral sucks but most are saying it due to placebo and because of the tradition that oral sucks, not necessarily because they can pinpoint a difference.





    Hey guys. I have been a board member for at least a year I believe. My first means of administration was DMSO. I did 6 pellets per day. My gains and fat loss were excellent. My strength increase was very impressive.

    I did 2 cycles last year...

    Now for the interesting part. I started a cycle in the middle of Jan with DMSO. About 3 weeks into it, I got sick and tired of using the DMSO and I forgot to do it one night but I had some pellets with me. I orally took the pellets that night and said "f**k it" and continued.

    Let me tell you that I notice NO DIFFERENCE between DMSO and oral (for me). It is less aggrivating and very easy. I have the same (more) strength gains that I did last year.

    This is not an opinion, I actually did it...

    I may try the inject next...
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    Originally posted by pjorstad
    According to patrick arnold with the ESTER left a lone transdermal fina is 20 percent MAX , chewed and swallowd its 20-30 percent.
    Listen pjorstad...I'll say this one more time for you:  SAPONIFY THE DAMN ESTER AND GET MORE THAN 20% ABSORPTION!  You keep quoting PA's thoughts but offer very little content other than, "Well, I heard someone say..."

    The intent of this board is for ALL anabolic topics and is not limited to transdermals.  As I have said in NUMEROUS threads: when dealing with fina the preference of administration route is (1) inject (2) transdermal - saponified ester and (3) oral ===> IN THAT ORDER

    If removing the ester is too much work for you then consider another hobby other than body mesopmorphosis.  Everything you do in this lifestyle is centered around working for what you want and this is merely a stepping stone.  Too many bros have the attitude of taking the easy way up.  Forget convenience...long live EFFECTIVENESS!

    Chemo
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    Originally posted by Bobo
    I got more cramping and back pain with oral fina than anything else. Don't know why.
    Lower back pain can be an indicator of liver distress.
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    Originally posted by John Benz

    Lower back pain can be an indicator of liver distress.
    Yeah I thought that could be the case. I've heard of it before on Winny and Dbol since they 17AA. Another reason to do it a different way.
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    Originally posted by Big Daddy Chemo


    : when dealing with fina the preference of administration route is (1) inject (2) transdermal - saponified ester and (3) oral ===> IN THAT ORDER

    .  Forget convenience...long live EFFECTIVENESS!

    Chemo
    bump on that reply . long live injecting and effectiveness !
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    heheh


    Look bro... we arent saying that oral fina doesnt do anything... just that you have to take SO much to get anything out of it.

    Just TRY transdermal or IM and see your results..

    BTW I got really full lower back pumps if I did ANYTHING that involved lower back within a week of starting Fina..... and I was doing IM.

    I think most people just arent used to have your lower back muscles pump up like that.
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    I know what you are saying big daddy chemo im not stupid. But ive asked you before and you say its only 50 percent yield. When you add the hassle of doing it, the fact that its only 50 percent yield and the fact that you have to apply transdermal all over you 2 times a day in the end there is little advantage. If you had an easy to do recipe for 100 percent yield or close to it then it would be better




    John benz as far as the lower back thing its mostly due to the nature of fina. On 1-test i got back pain a lot and could barely even due squats. I used to get a pump on my forearm when sleeping because of the lower blood flow when resting tight against pillow, in fact it happened to me for this first time last night.
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    Originally posted by pjorstad
    I know what you are saying big daddy chemo im not stupid. But ive asked you before and you say its only 50 percent yield. When you add the hassle of doing it, the fact that its only 50 percent yield and the fact that you have to apply transdermal all over you 2 times a day in the end there is little advantage. If you had an easy to do recipe for 100 percent yield or close to it then it would be better




    John benz as far as the lower back thing its mostly due to the nature of fina. On 1-test i got back pain a lot and could barely even due squats. I used to get a pump on my forearm when sleeping because of the lower blood flow when resting tight against pillow, in fact it happened to me for this first time last night.
    1. You want 100? Inject it. If you feel you can't do that when you want the most effective way, then your in the wrong game. You can't see the difference between 50% and 20%? Can you say expense? As for ease, you have yet to try it so once again, for the LAST TIME, DON'T BASH SOMETHING YOU HAVE NOT TRIED! . If you want the lazy way out its simple, THIS IS NOT THE BOARD FOR YOU. People here will do the extra little effort to get more effectiveness and not go by what the "other guy" has said.

    2. You get the same problems with oral Winny and Dbol after a while. I've done extremely high doses of 1-test and never had that problem. Its not the same with 1-test.
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    Yes it is the same as 1-test ive had the SAME EXACT problems with back pumping etc, its the nature of 1-test and fina. So far i don't have back pain but if know in a nother week a or 2 if i do anything related to back work my back will be aching most of the week to some degree. In fact right now fina and 1-test seem the same to me so far except fina hasn't made me lethargic like 1-test.


    Like i said the yield is only 50 percent for conversion, if it was 100 percent then i would change my mind. Hell i would inject too but im scared of doing it wrong, i wish i had someone to help me make sure im doing it right and im scared about abcesses etc etc.
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    Re: heheh


    Originally posted by Milo Hobgoblin
    BTW I got really full lower back pumps if I did ANYTHING that involved lower back within a week of starting Fina..... and I was doing IM.

    I think most people just arent used to have your lower back muscles pump up like that.
    Bobo isn't "most" people. He is in tremendous condition and would know the difference between a pump and a pain from some other cause.
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    Originally posted by pjorstad
    Yes it is the same as 1-test ive had the SAME EXACT problems with back pumping etc, its the nature of 1-test and fina. So far i don't have back pain but if know in a nother week a or 2 if i do anything related to back work my back will be aching most of the week to some degree. In fact right now fina and 1-test seem the same to me so far except fina hasn't made me lethargic like 1-test.


    Like i said the yield is only 50 percent for conversion, if it was 100 percent then i would change my mind. Hell i would inject too but im scared of doing it wrong, i wish i had someone to help me make sure im doing it right and im scared about abcesses etc etc.
    pjorstad,

    I get back pumps from simply doing high rep deadlifts. The back pain from liver distress is much different. Realy like a pulled muscle except that it comes and goes.
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    Originally posted by pjorstad
    Yes it is the same as 1-test ive had the SAME EXACT problems with back pumping etc, its the nature of 1-test and fina. So far i don't have back pain but if know in a nother week a or 2 if i do anything related to back work my back will be aching most of the week to some degree. In fact right now fina and 1-test seem the same to me so far except fina hasn't made me lethargic like 1-test.


    Like i said the yield is only 50 percent for conversion, if it was 100 percent then i would change my mind. Hell i would inject too but im scared of doing it wrong, i wish i had someone to help me make sure im doing it right and im scared about abcesses etc etc.
    Prove it. You've never even used fina and your going to tell me its the same? Sorry, we don't play that here. This is typical with any heavy adrogen use, especially orals. When your strenght goes through the roof you will not associate 1-test with fina. They are similar in some aspects but other's completely different. Please do not tell me what is alike when you havne't even use one of them.
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    1 test is as similar to fina as a hundai is to a Mercedes. A few points here:

    #1 Oral is no wheres CLOSE to 50% absorbtion. If you think oral comes close to transdermal, you are sadly mistaken, any more than transdermal can compare to injecting. The thing with fina is it is a VERY potent AAS. So, your getting gains, perhaps off of as little as 25mg absorbed a day. I would say fina has noticable differences in a dose as low as that, however, inject 100mg/day and you will learn what fina is really about.

    #2 Fina does NOT cause water retention. Plain and simple, it does not aromatise, and does NOT bring on water weight. I have used it enough times to know. To say it increases red blood cell count..etc, is okay, but that does NOT happen in just a few days, more often around week 3 you begin to see that.

    #3 There is NO pump like the fina pump. I have tried 4-AD, 1-test, fina, Test enth, winny, dbols....and NONE of them have the same sick "my muscles are going to rip out of my skin" pump that fina brings. I cut out deads on a fina cycle, just because I would be unable to get in my car after a deadlift workout, thanks to the painful back pumps.

    I will not say you will not see results from chewing the pellets, I am saying, if your going to expose your body and liver and everything else to an androgen, you may as well make it worth it and does high enough.

    Wardog
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    Originally posted by wardog
    1 test is as similar to fina as a hundai is to a Mercedes. A few points here:

    #1 Oral is no wheres CLOSE to 50% absorbtion. If you think oral comes close to transdermal, you are sadly mistaken, any more than transdermal can compare to injecting. The thing with fina is it is a VERY potent AAS. So, your getting gains, perhaps off of as little as 25mg absorbed a day. I would say fina has noticable differences in a dose as low as that, however, inject 100mg/day and you will learn what fina is really about.

    #2 Fina does NOT cause water retention. Plain and simple, it does not aromatise, and does NOT bring on water weight. I have used it enough times to know. To say it increases red blood cell count..etc, is okay, but that does NOT happen in just a few days, more often around week 3 you begin to see that.

    #3 There is NO pump like the fina pump. I have tried 4-AD, 1-test, fina, Test enth, winny, dbols....and NONE of them have the same sick "my muscles are going to rip out of my skin" pump that fina brings. I cut out deads on a fina cycle, just because I would be unable to get in my car after a deadlift workout, thanks to the painful back pumps.

    I will not say you will not see results from chewing the pellets, I am saying, if your going to expose your body and liver and everything else to an androgen, you may as well make it worth it and does high enough.

    Wardog

    Hey wardog glad see you around!

    If fina doesn't cause red blood cell count why the heck does my skin start already turning a more red flusher due to more red blood cels etc??? Why do i get huffed and puffed like its an aerobic activity due to the extra blood going away from critical parts??? Why am i already getting MODERATE pumps within 4 days?? Why did my chest swell up in a puffy way(no not gyno!) within a couple days????

    Whether you like it or not fina and every other androgen will put on at least 2 lbs of lbm that is merrely water and the minute you get off and reduce calories ITS GONE!


    There is NO pump like the fina pump??? Maybe so but when i was on my 1-test/4-AD cycle after doing stiff legs my back was cramping so bad afterwards upwards of a half an hour after my workout i had to move my back in a certain position while driving because it HURT! My forearms were blowing up on tricep workouts and vice o versa!


    Bobo, as for strength i doubt that the fina will suprass a 1-test and 4-AD stack i was doing at high dosages. My squat 2 rep range max went a whopping increase of 33 percent in 5 weeks and 25 percent increase in a mere 3 weeks! Bench press and all upper body excercises went up at least 13-15 percent and my upper body is much weaker strength wise and size wise so that is ALOT for me.




    Now that ive basically taken an anti-fina stand and pro-1-test stand let me say thats not how i want to appear. I like fina and i hope it blows away 1-test but as i see it now, i doubt it. I doubt it will be much better then my 1-test/4-AD cycle i got done with 2 months ago and it was my 3rd cycle and my receptors were starting to get bored of 1-test so i had to hit the dosages pretty good!
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    Why do you get flushed? Try checking your blood pressure bro..lol! Fina is a bitch at jacking the BP, so you have to watch it carefully, it has nothing to do with it increasing cell count yet.

    When ever I am on fins, BP goes up and I have a nice flushed upper chest all the time. Got to keep a close eye, and watch how you eat.

    As far as being huffed and puffed, again, the rise in BP bro. You have to also realize that the moderatly better pumps can simply be placebo..because you are pushing harder in the gym..knowing the fina is in your system. Just my opinion for what it is worth
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    Also..comparing oral fina to transdermal 4-AD and 1-test isnt fair bro. Again, if you are only getting 25-30mg/day of fina into your system, it is not going to work at the same levels.

    IMO there is no better androgen than fina for certain things. If any androgen could make you gain reasonable amounts of LBM and lose fat at the same time, it would be fina. Unfortunatly using it by itself is never really a good thing. However, running it with test and femura, I actually put on about 6-8 pounds and lost fat around the midsection. Your 1-test and 4-AD cannot do that bro.
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    Originally posted by pjorstad



    Hey wardog glad see you around!

    If fina doesn't cause red blood cell count why the heck does my skin start already turning a more red flusher due to more red blood cels etc??? Why do i get huffed and puffed like its an aerobic activity due to the extra blood going away from critical parts??? Why am i already getting MODERATE pumps within 4 days?? Why did my chest swell up in a puffy way(no not gyno!) within a couple days????

    Whether you like it or not fina and every other androgen will put on at least 2 lbs of lbm that is merrely water and the minute you get off and reduce calories ITS GONE!


    There is NO pump like the fina pump??? Maybe so but when i was on my 1-test/4-AD cycle after doing stiff legs my back was cramping so bad afterwards upwards of a half an hour after my workout i had to move my back in a certain position while driving because it HURT! My forearms were blowing up on tricep workouts and vice o versa!


    Bobo, as for strength i doubt that the fina will suprass a 1-test and 4-AD stack i was doing at high dosages. My squat 2 rep range max went a whopping increase of 33 percent in 5 weeks and 25 percent increase in a mere 3 weeks! Bench press and all upper body excercises went up at least 13-15 percent and my upper body is much weaker strength wise and size wise so that is ALOT for me.




    Now that ive basically taken an anti-fina stand and pro-1-test stand let me say thats not how i want to appear. I like fina and i hope it blows away 1-test but as i see it now, i doubt it. I doubt it will be much better then my 1-test/4-AD cycle i got done with 2 months ago and it was my 3rd cycle and my receptors were starting to get bored of 1-test so i had to hit the dosages pretty good!
    What the **** don't you understand. Your telling me fina won't have these effects even after I've done them ALL and you have not! Pjorstad this is your last ****ing warning. If you continue to post with mere opinion contradicting those that have done 10 times more **** than you have, you WILL NOT BE ABLE TO POST AT ALL. Do you get the point?

    I guarantee your strength will go past your 1-test/4ad cycle. You don't seem to get the ****in point fina is much more potent at about half the dosage. Coming from me, wardog and numerous other it blows 1-test away!!! Now do not post on this subject until you are in week 3 when you come back and confirm everything that I told you will happen. I'm sick and tired of you telling us what will happen when you've never done fina ONCE and both wardog and I have done it more times that we can prorbably count.

    End of discussion.
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  32. Banned
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    I will read Bean's post. I will read every other persons post and will learn that if I keep talking out my ass, I will get banned. I better leanr this quick because some people's patience is running thin.
    Last edited by Dwight Schrute; 02-08-2003 at 12:00 AM.
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    dude you seriously need to back off man; you've already pissed off half the board; all of the vets especially.. all with your own opinions based upon absolutely nothing but hunches and more opinion

    from what i've seen fina sides don't start kicking in until the strength/size increases do... around week 2-3... fina is running an acetate ester which takes a couple weeks to really start having a big effect on the system
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    Wow, I see the GM board wasn't the only one who felt this way about you PJ.... dude you need to stop. You were banned from our board for this exact same reason. I know your a good guy at heart but you need to learn from your past mistakes.
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    He's gone.  Let me explain why.  It's not that he is just plain ignorant BUT that the information he continues to present is false is nature and acting on it could be potentially dangerous, but often, just outright stupid, for a person to follow.  A few times is ok.  By all means we are sometimes wrong, but failure to comply with our standard to have rational thought and back our claims with evidence eventually becomes unacceptable. 

    WYD

     
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    Originally posted by whosyourdaddy02
    He's gone.  Let me explain why.  It's not that he is just plain ignorant BUT that the information he continues to present is false is nature and acting on it could be potentially dangerous, but often, just outright stupid, for a person to follow.  A few times is ok.  By all means we are sometimes wrong, but failure to comply with our standard to have rational thought and back our claims with evidence eventually becomes inacceptable. 

    WYD  
    WYD...there is no need to explain bro

    I have lost several IQ points just by reading some of his posts and everyone will agree that wrong ideas could potentially hurt someone in the sections he was posting in.  May he ride in peace...

    Chemo
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    Explain it like this:
    Attached Images Attached Images  
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    I apologize guys; I gave him the link to anabolicminds, never seen him like this; me, pj, and draven all hail from Anthony Ellis's group...

    we promise we are not all like this
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    So uh..... can I ban Bean?
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    LOL.. nah YJ. bean is a good one...
  

  
 

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