How's this cycle look (m1T/1,4ADD)?

Flash

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I'm currently cutting, using a UD2 program. My progress is stalling, so its time to change something. I havent much experience with PH's. I'm 29, and have roughly 6 or 7 cycles under my belt. I want to go the PH route, because I dont want to gain too much...and every AAS I touch shoots my weight up into th mid 190's.

I'm getting old, so If recovery isnt smooth I'll just make my own andro gel. I was thinking of running a Test/4OHT trans cycle, but I really want a low estro cycle, and I dont want to by 12 weeks worth of arimidex.

I'm also training for endurance competitions. I want to get down to 175-178'ish at 4-6%. 4 preferably, but I have never been that low and its pretty tough o pull off.

My current stats are:
HT: 6'0
WT: 183'ish
BF: 8-9%

The cycle I want to use to get there is:

WKS 1-8:
1,4-ADD Transdermal @ 250mg/d
m1T @ 10mg/d
T3 @ 25mcg/d

PCT:
Clomid @ 100mgx2wks/50mgx2wks
Armidex @ 0.5mg/dx6wks
4-AD @ 300mg upon risingx4wks

What do you guys think? Is that in the right direction for what Im looking for?
 

skeptical

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I'm not trying to flame you here, but this cycle is insane. First off 8 weeks of M1T is completely nuts! Most people go 2 weeks on 2 weeks off 2 weeks on. Some even go 3-4 weeks straight, but I've never heard of anyone going longer than that. Also, the 1,4ADD will not help with the M1T sides, and will likely lead to further loss of libido. After 8 weeks of that you may never get it up again (assuming you haven't already already killed yourself with 8 weeks of M1T eating at your liver).

Moreover, what's up with the PCT? Armidex is not for PCT. Nolva is for PCT. And the 4AD? Most definately not for PCT. Don't try this cycle--you'll hurt yourself.
 

cr4ytonic

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This will **** you up so bad... you would regret doing this, possibly for the rest of your life.
 

Boss_K

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aside from what they said...m1t kills endurance, after 30 seconds on the stairstepper i quit doing cardio....
 

Brodus

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Bump on all of the M1T comments...it kills endurance, wrecks your blood pressure, and if you're on in it for 8 weeks straight and then follow with 4AD, you might not see your balls for a year or more.
 

Flash

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So you like it? LOL

I think I can handle it. I've used m1T before. I'm familiar with the lethargy, thats why its only 10mg/d. It cant be worse than running 100mg/d of tren alone.

Is there any less lethargy from runing 1test trans than m1t?

(As far as the ari in the PCT, it keeps what litle test youve got from converting to estro. Clomid and nolva dont do that. You should give it a shot. Its way better than Clomid alone.)
 

skeptical

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Why are you asking for advice if you've already made up your mind? It's not the lethargy you need to worry about with the M1T, that's just a nuisance. It's the effects that it will have on your liver and your heart (not to mention your balls).

As far as the Armidex comment with regards to PCT: "what little test you've got"??? You won't have ANY endogenous test if you're using 4-AD anyway.

If there are any Senators reading: here is your poster child for promoting the Ban.
 

cr4ytonic

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Flash it is not about being hard-core or being able to "handle-it"

A cycle like this is just simply not productive, you could get bigger and stronger more safely on a better planned cycle. It is not hard-core, it is just plain stupid and would have negative benefits. You might make some temporary gains but they will evaporate when you come off.
 

Flash

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Flash it is not about being hard-core or being able to "handle-it"

A cycle like this is just simply not productive, you could get bigger and stronger more safely on a better planned cycle. It is not hard-core, it is just plain stupid and would have negative benefits. You might make some temporary gains but they will evaporate when you come off.
I was thinking this was a light cycle. I'm old, and have no intentions of being hardcore. I read through some of DD's posts on trans 1,4 and he seemed to really like it. He also said it was better with 1test. I thought that m1T+1,4ADD would be a winner, so I asked here.

I also was not aware that m1T was any worse than Dbol for your liver. Im not trying to be rude, but what evidence do we have that it is?

I'm open to suggestions. I just want to avoid too much catabolism, and avoid estro conversion.
 

skeptical

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First off you don't want to gain weight, so M1T is a bad choice in that regard to begin with aside from the other issues.

Why not try 6 weeks with 1 Test and 4OHT transdermal and oral 1,4ADD, then 2 weeks 4OHT transdermal tapering down while you start PCT? I would consider that to be a good cutting cycle without the harsh sides.
 

cr4ytonic

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try a 1-test / 4ad transdermal with a ratio in favor of the 1-test, will help you with cutting.
 

skeptical

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It depends on what your stack is going to look like. 1-Test/4AD: 400 mgs 1-Test and 200 mgs. 4AD has worked for me. 1-Test/4OHT/1,4ADD, I'd say: 400 mgs 1-Test, 300 mgs 4OHT, 600 mgs 1,4ADD. These are both a bit arbitrary though, and are based on my preferences more than anything else.
 

cr4ytonic

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The classic S1+ / super one + transdermal ratio is:
100mg 1-test 2x daily (200mg daily total)
150mg 4ad 2x daily (300mg daily total)
 

cookmic5

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It depends on what your stack is going to look like. 1-Test/4AD: 400 mgs 1-Test and 200 mgs. 4AD has worked for me. 1-Test/4OHT/1,4ADD, I'd say: 400 mgs 1-Test, 300 mgs 4OHT, 600 mgs 1,4ADD. These are both a bit arbitrary though, and are based on my preferences more than anything else.
From the feedback I've read I think he would be happiest with a 1test/4oht/4ad transdermal cycle, perhaps with a lower 4ad dose than you have listed above, but whatever works.

Regardless don't add 4ad to the post cycle, this would be like adding test to an AAS post cycle, making it not so much of a post cycle as a continued cycle.

cm5
 

skeptical

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From the feedback I've read I think he would be happiest with a 1test/4oht/4ad transdermal cycle, perhaps with a lower 4ad dose than you have listed above, but whatever works.

Regardless don't add 4ad to the post cycle, this would be like adding test to an AAS post cycle, making it not so much of a post cycle as a continued cycle.

cm5
That's a good thought. You could definately lower the 4-AD if you added the 4OHT to a S1+ stack.
 

Flash

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I'll take your wors for it. Like I said, Im a newbie to PH's. I am a little concerned about the 4AD bloat.

Isnt formestane as effective for anti-e purposes as OHT? Its about half the price, and should have the same affinity for the aromatase enztyme as OHT.
 

skeptical

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I'll take your wors for it. Like I said, Im a newbie to PH's. I am a little concerned about the 4AD bloat.

Isnt formestane as effective for anti-e purposes as OHT? Its about half the price, and should have the same affinity for the aromatase enztyme as OHT.
Formestane will probably work just as well as an anti-e, but the 4OHT has anabolic properties which add to its value.
 

Brodus

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Also, formestane is one of the metabolites of 4OHT, which is what imparts a good measure of the anti-e properties.

1,4 is great for endurance sports, and you typically run it for 6 weeks.

4OHT in the mix will help reduce bloat.

I would suggest Nolva only for PCT, drop the Arimidex and ESPECIALLY DROP THE 4AD...that will completely prevent recovery.

Also, why T3? I don't really understand your goals vs. cycle? T3 is a cutter, and most people are lucky to maintain LBM if not lose muscle on it. M1T is a bulker and a bloater. What exactly are you trying to do? If you want hardness, less bodyfat, dramatic strength increase, stack M5AA w/ the 1,4 transermal.

BTW: M1T is NOT dianabol, and IS harsher on the system than dianabol. These common misconceptions and the resulting errors in judgement they precipitate are one of the key components in the logic of the ban. Although it is somewhat debateable, mg. for mg. M1T is the harshest oral available, commerical or underground (I'm stressing available--cheque drops don't really count here, but they are more inherently liver toxic). This has been echoed by user reports, blood tests, and top steroid chemists like P.A.
 

Nullifidian

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M1T worst for liver? No, Halotestin wins there hands down. I of course didn't mention methyl-trienolone because it isn't available.


From supersoldier's 4 week cycle, it looks as though HDL is of much more concern than liver enzymes when taking M1T. His HDL was single digit while on it. Also, M1T shuts down HPTA completely in about 3 days from everyone's accounts, and recovery is based on how long you've been shutdown.
 

Flash

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Brodus, I can see your trying to help, but I dont think you really understand what your talking about. Nolva is not as good as clomid, but it does work with less sides. Arimidex works PCT...If it doesnt, then your saying 6-oxo doesnt work either because its the exact same mechanism. Ive used Arimidex alone post cycle, and it worked well. Not as good as clomid+Arimidex, but almost.

Did I say m1T is Dbol? NO!

Did you know its the same structure sans a double bond. This, to me, would indicate that it would have similair liver toxicity. Thats all I was saying. If you read SS's post, it shows Im right. It wasnt his liver that was the problem, it was its effect on his lipid profile.

...AND THEN YOU IMPLY ITS MY FAULT PH'S ARE GETTING BANNED!

seriously, Ive tried to be nice but you and skeptical have been up my ass since I posted. The myths like 'if you're on in it for 8 weeks straight and then follow with 4AD, you might not see your balls for a year or more' are fucking annoying.

I can figure out the biochem on my own. I use the boards for user feedback.
 

Brodus

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Your correct, Halotestin is more liver toxic, but I said systemically harsh, re-read my post:

"Although it is somewhat debateable, mg. for mg. M1T is the harshest oral available"

Your post of SS bloodwork adds to this--M1T not only is liver toxic, but it ruins your lipid profiles, glyocogenisis, and blood pressure.

Halo is dosed around 30-40mg a day--M1T causes similar liver level increases at 20mg. a day. Halo doesn't cause huge rises in Blood Pressure, and Halo doesn't make you cramp like hell when you workout (otherwise boxers and football players wouldn't use it). Also people don't usually run Halo for more than 4 weeks, and the OP was going to do 8 weeks of M1T. For these reasons, I stand by my claim that M1T is the harshest oral.
 

skeptical

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Brodus, I can see your trying to help, but I dont think you really understand what your talking about. Nolva is not as good as clomid, but it does work with less sides. Arimidex works PCT...If it doesnt, then your saying 6-oxo doesnt work either because its the exact same mechanism. Ive used Arimidex alone post cycle, and it worked well. Not as good as clomid+Arimidex, but almost.

Did I say m1T is Dbol? NO!

Did you know its the same structure sans a double bond. This, to me, would indicate that it would have similair liver toxicity. Thats all I was saying. If you read SS's post, it shows Im right. It wasnt his liver that was the problem, it was its effect on his lipid profile.

...AND THEN YOU IMPLY ITS MY FAULT PH'S ARE GETTING BANNED!

seriously, Ive tried to be nice but you and skeptical have been up my ass since I posted. The myths like 'if you're on in it for 8 weeks straight and then follow with 4AD, you might not see your balls for a year or more' are fucking annoying.

I can figure out the biochem on my own. I use the boards for user feedback.
You're welcome. :rolleyes:

F.Y.I: I've been trying to be nice too (I try to humor at least one moron a day to build up my karma). At this point though, I'm willing to say go for it. I've been "up [your] ass"? Well then I'll remove myself. Good luck with the 8 weeks of M1T and the 4-AD PCT (fancy you telling anyone they don't know what they're talking about). I wouldn't expect a hell of a lot of advice when you come back crying about how it fucked you up.

Oh...and, yes: people like you are a perfect example of why the ban is hovering over our heads.

:wave:
 
bioman

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8 weeks huh? Good chance you might not be getting any older after that cycle.

Like wow.

It should be interesting at the very least. Everything's getting banned anyways so might as well have some human gineau pigs push the envelope for us.

M1T and endurance training are completely incompatible.
 

Nullifidian

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Your correct, Halotestin is more liver toxic, but I said systemically harsh, re-read my post:

"Although it is somewhat debateable, mg. for mg. M1T is the harshest oral available"

Your post of SS bloodwork adds to this--M1T not only is liver toxic, but it ruins your lipid profiles, glyocogenisis, and blood pressure.

Halo is dosed around 30-40mg a day--M1T causes similar liver level increases at 20mg. a day. Halo doesn't cause huge rises in Blood Pressure, and Halo doesn't make you cramp like hell when you workout (otherwise boxers and football players wouldn't use it). Also people don't usually run Halo for more than 4 weeks, and the OP was going to do 8 weeks of M1T. For these reasons, I stand by my claim that M1T is the harshest oral.
Oh, I totally agree M1T is crazy dangerous stuff. I appologize for misinterpretting your post. You're right, M1T is worse for your blood pressure and lipid profile. SS got HDL down in single digits for a while; that's acute risk of heart disease we're talking about. You stay at those levels for any more than a week, and you're just asking for heart failure. Even if you don't get a heart attack, staying at that level for that amount of time WILL do irrepairable damage to your heart and circulatory system, no doubt about it, guaranteed. What I found was interesting about SS's posts is that M1T didn't actually appear to affect his liver much at all really. Certainly not as much as everyone thought it would. But just because it doesn't kill your liver as bad as everyone thought doesn't mean it's safe. There are more dangerous things than liver damage, and heart damage is one of them.

Personally I think the folks who run M1T for 4 weeks are nuts. I might try a 2 on 1 off 2 on cycle, but I'd never do 4 weeks straight. Yet you're talking about 8 weeks straight?! It's the last thing you'll ever do in your life. I'm not exaggerating either, I really think you are risking your life there if you go with it for that long. I personally don't even think you'd make it the full 8 weeks. Your heart could very well give out before then.
 

jrkarp

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Brodus, I can see your trying to help, but I dont think you really understand what your talking about. Nolva is not as good as clomid, but it does work with less sides. Arimidex works PCT...If it doesnt, then your saying 6-oxo doesnt work either because its the exact same mechanism. Ive used Arimidex alone post cycle, and it worked well. Not as good as clomid+Arimidex, but almost.
Well, it seems to us that you don't really understand what you're (<- note the spelling) talking about. I'm going to leave the 8 weeks of M1T alone (although I hope you enjoy your jaundice!), but what is your rationale for 4AD during PCT? Taking exogenous hormones during PCT totally defeats the purpose of PCT. Also, if you do some research (which you obviously haven't), you'll find that 1,4ADD has much better bioavailability if taken orally (vs. transdermally), so taking it transdermally is a waste of money.

Uninformed use of PH like what you're talking about is certainly what is responsible for the ban, just like some idiots taking way too much ephedra and having heart attacks were responsible for ephedra being banned.

Finally, Nolva is superior to Clomid for PCT. Here is an article explaining why that has been circulating on bodybuilding forums and sites for a while (reprinted without permission):



Clomid, Nolvadex and Testosterone Stimulation
by William Llewellyn

Introduction

I have received a lot of heat lately about my preference for Nolvadex over Clomid, which I hold for all purposes of use (in the bodybuilding world anyway); as an anti-estrogen, an HDL (good) cholesterol-supporting drug, and as a testosterone-stimulating compound. Most people use Nolvadex to combat gynecomastia over Clomid anyway, so that is an easy sell. And for cholesterol, well, most bodybuilders unfortunately pay little attention to this important issue, so by way of disinterest, another easy opinion to discuss. But when it comes to using Nolvadex for increasing endogenous testosterone release, bodybuilders just do not want to hear it. They only seem to want Clomid. I can only guess that this is based on a long rooted misunderstanding of the actions of the two drugs. In this article I would therefore like to discuss the specifics for these two agents, and explain clearly the usefulness of Nolvadex for the specific purpose of increasing testosterone production.

Clomid and Nolvadex

I am not sure how Clomid and Nolvadex became so separated in the minds of bodybuilders. They certainly should not be. Clomid and Nolvadex are both anti-estrogens belonging to the same group of triphenylethylene compounds. They are structurally related and specifically classified as selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) with mixed agonistic and antagonistic properties. This means that in certain tissues they can block the effects of estrogen, by altering the binding capacity of the receptor, while in others they can act as actual estrogens, activating the receptor. In men, both of these drugs act as anti-estrogens in their capacity to oppose the negative feedback of estrogens on the hypothalamus and stimulate the heightened release of GnRH (Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone). LH output by the pituitary will be increased as a result, which in turn can increase the level of testosterone by the testes. Both drugs do this, but for some reason bodybuilders persist in thinking that Clomid is the only drug good at stimulating testosterone. What you will find with a little investigation however is that not only is Nolvadex useful for the same purpose, it should actually be the preferred agent of the two.

Studies conducted in the late 1970's at the University of Ghent in Belgium make clear the advantages of using Nolvadex instead of Clomid for increasing testosterone levels (1). Here, researchers looked the effects of Nolvadex and Clomid on the endocrine profiles of normal men, as well as those suffering from low sperm counts (oligospermia). For our purposes, the results of these drugs on hormonally normal men are obviously the most relevant. What was found, just in the early parts of the study, was quite enlightening. Nolvadex, used for 10 days at a dosage of 20mg daily, increased serum testosterone levels to 142% of baseline, which was on par with the effect of 150mg of Clomid daily for the same duration (the testosterone increase was slightly, but not significantly, better for Clomid). We must remember though that this is the effect of three 50mg tablets of Clomid. With the price of both a 50mg Clomid and 20mg Nolvadex typically very similar, we are already seeing a cost vs. results discrepancy forming that strongly favors the Nolvadex side.

Pituitary Sensitivity to GnRH

But something more interesting is happening. Researchers were also conducting GnRH stimulation tests before and after various points of treatment with Nolvadex and Clomid, and the two drugs had markedly different results. These tests involved infusing patients with 100mcg of GnRH and measuring the output of pituitary LH in response. The focus of this test is to see how sensitive the pituitary is to Gonadotropin Releasing Hormone. The more sensitive the pituitary, the more LH will be released. The tests showed that after ten days of treatment with Nolvadex, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH increased slightly compared to pre-treated values. This is contrast to 10 days of treatment with 150mg Clomid, which was shown to consistently DECREASE pituitary sensitivity to GnRH (more LH was released before treatment). As the study with Nolvadex progresses to 6 weeks, pituitary sensitivity to GnRH was significantly higher than pre-treated or 10-day levels. At this point the same 20mg dosage was also raising testosterone and LH levels to an average of 183% and 172% of base values, respectively, which again is measurably higher than what was noted 10 days into therapy. Within 10 days of treatment Clomid is already exerting an effect that is causing the pituitary to become slightly desensitized to GnRH, while prolonged use of Nolvadex serves only to increase pituitary sensitivity to this hormone. That is not to say Clomid won't increase testosterone if taken for the same 6 week time period. Quite the opposite is true. But we are, however, noticing an advantage in Nolvadex.

The Estrogen Clomid

The above discrepancies are likely explained by differences in the estrogenic nature of the two compounds. The researchers' clearly support this theory when commenting in their paper, "The difference in response might be attributable to the weak intrinsic estrogenic effect of Clomid, which in this study manifested itself by an increase in transcortin and testosterone/estradiol-binding globulin [SHBG] levels; this increase was not observed after tamoxifen treatment". In reviewing other theories later in the paper, such as interference by increased androgen or estrogen levels, they persist in noting that increases in these hormones were similar with both drug treatments, and state that," …a role of the intrinsic estrogenic activity of Clomid which is practically absent in Tamoxifen seems the most probable explanation".

Although these two are related anti-estrogens, they appear to act very differently at different sites of action. Nolvadex seems to be strongly anti-estrogenic at both the hypothalamus and pituitary, which is in contrast to Clomid, which although a strong anti-estrogen at the hypothalamus, seems to exhibit weak estrogenic activity at the pituitary. To find further support for this we can look at an in-vitro animal study published in the American Journal of Physiology in February 1981 (2). This paper looks at the effects of Clomid and Nolvadex on the GnRH stimulated release of LH from cultured rat pituitary cells. In this paper, it was noted that incubating cells with Clomid had a direct estrogenic effect on cultured pituitary cell sensitivity, exerting a weaker but still significant effect compared to estradiol. Nolvadex on the other hand did not have any significant effect on LH response. Furthermore it mildly blocked the effects of estrogen when both were incubated in the same culture.

Conclusion

To summarize the above research succinctly, Nolvadex is the more purely anti-estrogenic of the two drugs, at least where the HPTA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Testicular Axis) is concerned. This fact enables Nolvadex to offer the male bodybuilder certain advantages over Clomid. This is especially true at times when we are looking to restore a balanced HPTA, and would not want to desensitize the pituitary to GnRH. This could perhaps slow recovery to some extent, as the pituitary would require higher amounts of hypothalamic GnRH in the presence of Clomid in order to get the same level of LH stimulation.

Nolvadex also seems preferred from long-term use, for those who find anti-estrogens effective enough at raising testosterone levels to warrant using as anabolics. Here Nolvadex would seem to provide a better and more stable increase in testosterone levels, and likely will offer a similar or greater effect than Clomid for considerably less money. The potential rise in SHBG levels with Clomid, supported by other research (3), is also cause for concern, as this might work to allow for comparably less free active testosterone compared to Nolvadex as well. Ultimately both drugs are effective anti-estrogens for the prevention of gyno and elevation of endogenous testosterone, however the above research provides enough evidence for me to choose Nolvadex every time.

References:_

1. Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Vermeulen, Comhaire. Fertil and Steril 29 (1978) 320-7

2. Disparate effect of clomiphene and tamoxifen on pituitary gonadotropin release in vitro. Adashi EY, Hsueh AJ, Bambino TH, Yen SS. Am J Physiol 1981 Feb;240(2):E125-30

3. The effect of clomiphene citrate on sex hormone binding globulin in normospermic and oligozoospermic men. Adamopoulos, Kapolla et al. Int J Androl 4 (1981) 639-45
 

GettinSwole

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dude, why do you ask questions here when you haven't done any reading on your own. nolva is better than clomid for pct from m1t... don't argue that... you're wrong. don't go blastin brodus b/c he's tryin to show you that you're going to kill yourself w/ your proposed cycle. ya know what, do 8 weeks of m1t and use 4ad post cycle... then post me some pictures of your yellow ass once your liver dies ( if you don't die first)
 

Nullifidian

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dude, why do you ask questions here when you haven't done any reading on your own. nolva is better than clomid for pct from m1t... don't argue that... you're wrong. don't go blastin brodus b/c he's tryin to show you that you're going to kill yourself w/ your proposed cycle. ya know what, do 8 weeks of m1t and use 4ad post cycle... then post me some pictures of your yellow ass once your liver dies ( if you don't die first)
Once again, read SS's M1T log. His liver isn't going to die, his heart will. He won't post anything unless it's from an IC unit.
 

GettinSwole

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Once again, read SS's M1T log. His liver isn't going to die, his heart will. He won't post anything unless it's from an IC unit.
for that length of time on m1t... i think the heart and the liver would be in a serious race to see who stops first.
 

cr4ytonic

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Will the death certificate say M1T or stupidity?
 
bioman

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Depending on which SS log you look at his liver values did climb up a bit and this is related to blood lipid profiles. I believe his liver values shot up even more during PCT which brings up the topic of unforeseen long term consequences.
 

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