Cutting & Anabolic cycle sugg - No-$ Limit
07-14-2004 11:25 PM
Cutting & Anabolic cycle sugg - No-$ Limit
I would like to pick this group's collective experience and
knowledge base to suggest your 'ideal world' unlimited funds cycle
for weight loss with some muscle building.
I am 250 lbs and guestimated a body-fat in the high-20's as the normals for
DEXA on Hologics returns my BMI, skin fold won't work as I've lost about 50
lbs in the last 6 months and its extra loose. I have not yet tried Bod-Pod but know
that I have to cut another 40-50 lbs of fat. 50-chest, 37-waist, 19-arms.
I have been on HGH using Cenegenics for several months originating at 1.25 IU for 6 days
and then migrating to 2.5 IU per day 6 days. My natural test was low at 373 and they had me
on 1,000 - 1,500 iU of HCG 2x per week. I didn't agree with their concept of HCG only for correction
of the hypergonatropic hypogonadism (LH was high -- Leydid nonresponse).
For the past week, I've started:
100mg 1x per week of Test Enantheate IM
50mg 3x per week of Stanozol Suspension IM
1-2 days per week of 20% Trans-T.
50mg 7x per week - Anavar - compounded
I keep the HCG in 1x per week at 1,000 IU to keep some endogenous production going.... and arimidex
at 0.5mg 2x per week--- but I've been reducing it to let the HDLs be a little happier. I also use Crestor
10mg to keep the LDL under control - otherwise I could never contemplate the Test I expect. My HDL
is poor at 15 now from a natural low 37 but is supplemented now with 6-8 units of DHA/EPA fish oils and
2-3 tablespoons of flax seed---- my protocol at home with the cardiochek meter is bi-weekly lipid measurements,
several glucose measurements per day, and post-lift ketone measurements once or twice a week.
My protocol still has caloric reduction, albeit it incorporates approx. 150-200g of protein
daily and does not incorporate a carb induced insulin spiking post-lift.
Once upon a time when I was 19-20, I got my bench to 615 and my squat over 700 with 21 arms and
some nice stats eating 5-10kcal a day and not even taking a multivitamin rather than touching any of this
stuff.... now I feel I really need the help to lean down. After 3 years out an finally getting an L5-S1 discectomy
last year, I need to approach this different... example I can't do squats or work with dumbells beyond 120s as my back
gets injured and then i'm an invalid for a week, paying for another L&S MR to take a look, and living on NSAIDS and
My protocol has a CBC, Liver Panel in Chem23 - every 2 weeks to watch the AST & ALT and watch H&H
Every 4 weeks- Total test, free test, DHEA, IGF1, A1C, DHT, Estradiol ultra-sensitive, and some others.
I want to be careful and consider myself limited to US pharma products as I only work by prescription and
take my medications with me when I fly with a physician letter. I realize that this greatly limits what I can
work with as there are so many foreign products not approved in the U.S.
I am contemplate the school of thought of putting a lot of muscle on (muscle memory from the 50+ lbs I know
I've atrophied in the last 5 years) and allowing it to burn off the remaining fat, but my ego might not tolerate this so well
and so I tend to push the far trickier reconstitution theme....
Presently I do 30-35 minutes of elliptical at 135 avg pulse and 450 kcals - 7 days. 1-2 days of 15 minutes of
running. 4-5 days of 60 minutes anaerobic lifting. Its hard for me to calorie count, but I keep wondering about whether the 600-800 kcal of protein a day is a waist for me on the weight loss perspective, albeit I've been gaining
muscle the while.. at a fast pace... regrowing....
From the cycle suggestions I've seen here---- most people are using FAR FAR greater levels of Test, but I worry about
extensive L-V hypertrophy albeit right now after my historical natural lifting window as of last week, my echo is nice.. EKG has ST-elevation, but Thallium stress has good L-R ejection fraction, normal wall motion, and minimal perfusion... clinically unremarkable....... so I figure I can withstand the HDL issue a while but the hypertrophy concerns me a bit -- although it naturally occurs w/o Test and GH and then atrophies off later based on my readings......
Any suggestions would be appreciated...
07-14-2004 11:29 PM
Running with the Big Boys
Moved this to the correct forum...
07-14-2004 11:43 PM
Hang'n & Bang'n
You're using just enough test to suppress your HPTA, but not enough to see any real results. You should really just end your cycle now and work with a good personal trainer (like Bobo) until you are at a point where your body can handle the stresses of weight training better. I'm not trying to offend... just my 2 cents.
07-15-2004 01:27 PM
I don't mean to imply that I cannot weight train. I am benching over 500 once again
and as long as I avoid the heavier dumbbells can engage in this and it helps with pain management. There
are just some exercises with some weight groups that I canot engage in. I am 1 year post-op as I write this.
My I know L4-L5 isn't the happiest camper either right now.
I have been able to put on a substantial amount of muscle tissue during the weight loss window without
any meds and the bulk of the gains made with small GH 7iu/wk dosings. I realize that the Test levels I
show are indeed very very conservative, but that is principally for fear and being new to this. My natural
test is only 350-370 to begin with and HCG only is the preferred path (so sayeth ACEE) for hypo and hypergonaditropic
hypogonadism patients . Bearing in mind that I'm only 27 and leydig cell population should still be excellent. I will indeed have suppression from this therapy, but ironically the 1,000 ng/dL of total test and nicer free test and DHT levels are all now in the zone when before they were subclinically low except for DHT which
was itself clinically low.
The conventional methods of weight loss have never worked for me in the past. This is why I have turned to the pharma
pathway and continue to hold off on lipo, albeit I'll need excision for childhood true gynecomastia (mostly glandular tissue) anyway. The GH has a difference and in my mind fostered the ability to enter signficiant caloric deficit without a stronger forfeiture of the muscle tissues which had ought to keep my basal cell metabolism that much higher for such maintenance.
The key questions that I seek to answer are ----
1. can an artificially induced regim to put on 20-30 of muscle in the short term and then utilized the 500-750kcal of increased basal cell met. for burning itself lead to a faster pathway for fat reduction than a pure GH + HRT Test (700-900 total-T goals) to preserve tissue along with the weight training whilst existing in deficit to continue the burn.
2. Is the stanozol (50mgx3xIM) and Anavar (50mgx7d) a valuable combination to foster the weight loss with perhaps
some limited muscle growth as short term. From the prescribing papers and references I've found, I believe the answer to be yes. With regard to the Test-side, HCG even at 1,500 IU 2x only brought my natural levels to 705 to where I expect
that the LH will be off for the rest of my life as even the HCG will cause it to fall off, especially after a mulit-year regim
of using HCG preferentially for endogenous T production. I am engaging in the exogeneous test to try to live in 1,000-1,400 total T range but don't desire to engage the risk of 2,000+ test's that I know some of these heavier stacks
tend to generate.
On a softer note --- I am very happy with the anti-edema effects of the stanozol... my face looks as though a different person on it.....
07-15-2004 01:57 PM
1. Yes you can but putting on 20-30lbs of muscle is not easy.
2. Yes they would help but the ultimately DIET is the key and answer to all your questions and I don't mean that in the "go on a diet" sense.
If I were in your position I would use a little more test maybe with some winny one cycle and var in a another to keep as much muscle as possible while I get rid of fat. You basically have to decide do you want to cut fat or gain muscle? your not doing both.
Also damn you like to type, what do you do for a living write books?
07-18-2004 04:15 PM
Here is what i would suggest if all you really want is weight loss with a little bit of muscle gain.
1) Solid diet plan - high protein - medium carbs - low fat
2) 45-60 mins 4-6x/week cardio first thing in the morning before eating
3) Do a Hypertrophy specific Training for weights 3x/week
4) Pick up an ECA along with some creatine and you will be good to go dude.
You dont need to spend thousands of $$$$ on drugs to get ripped...its all about diet and training...the drugs or supplements are simply aids to help you along the way.
After you have dropped the remainder of the weight then go for a cycle of something like Test & Var. That's it!
07-18-2004 10:51 PM
I've modified the cycle to where week 2-8 will be something of this sort:
200mg Delatestryl as 100mg 2x week
100mg Propionate as 50mg 2x week
200mg Deca as 100mg 2x week
25mg compounded var daily oral
75mg stanozol suspension IM 3 days
Plus my baseline HGH of 2-3 IU/d range which will be a multi-year
baseline for me I expect.
I am also attempting a protocol of 500 IU of HCG every other day to and
50mg of Clomid every 3rd day to attempt to keep endogenous production at a more
reasonable figure as my natural T is weak to begin with.. I realize that this is different that the normal school of thought for PCT.... My goal is to monitor my LH and FSH while in cycle as well in hopes of titrating to where I can keep some endogenous generation the while.
For estrogens--- I am utilized Arimidex now @ 1x 0.5 week... and introduced Novalex 20mg every other day. I don't want to go daily on the Arimidex for the lipid side, although the water weight reduction from the estrogen quash would be nice.
I have also added 40mcg of generic levothryoid and hope to titrate my
TSH from 1.7 to around 1.0-1.1.
I sense that this may be a little strong and potentially the Deca a little contradictory
with the stanozol but I wanted the anti-edema effects of the stanozol to minimize the sub-q water.
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