OTC PCT is a waste of time and money. - AnabolicMinds.com

OTC PCT is a waste of time and money.

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    OTC PCT is a waste of time and money.


    Make this a sticky, OTC PCT is dangerous, a waste of money, and the companies creating products that make such claims as to have created a legal way to restart HPTA function are acting irresponsibly and licentiously.

    STAY AWAY FROM OTC PCT!!
    Quote Originally Posted by madds87 View Post
    Im not to fond of taking serm's for long periods of time....

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    100% agreed. Plus they are not tested to the same standards are SERMs which have been FDA approved and used in medical settings for decades.
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    Which OTC ones have you guys used..I tend to stay away from SERMS, even if they are FDA approved, it doesnt mean much if it comes with a whole host of side effects
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    Novadex XT (oddly named closely to the most popular SERM nolvadex), which is actually a prohormone with some of the same ingredients as halodrol and not an AI at all (although it claims this on the label). This drug will actually suppress test production, the opposite of what it claims to do.

    The other day i saw a heath store version called arimadex labeled as an AI, I wonder what was in that, i doubt is was the breast cancer-drug Anastrozole, which is labeled under the brand name arimidex.




    AND: it doesnt mean much if it comes with a whole host of side effects, huh?

    How about the side effects of not running a proper PCT?
    1. Gyno
    2. Poor HPTA function including lower test levels
    3. Loss of a percentage of gains that could have been kept from restarting the body's natural production of test.
    Quote Originally Posted by madds87 View Post
    Im not to fond of taking serm's for long periods of time....
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    otc is much more expensive than serm's also (depending on your source) and yea its realy not hard to get your hands on like i hear so often.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vpower View Post
    Which OTC ones have you guys used..I tend to stay away from SERMS, even if they are FDA approved, it doesnt mean much if it comes with a whole host of side effects
    my primary point is that the long term side effects are well known and understood. God knows what these OTC products do to you long term, so it really is not possible to compare side effects. Plus they simply don't work as well as the SERMs do. PLUS bodybuilders have been using SERMs for decades so the process and effects are documented and well understood.

    Lastly, if someone just thinks about it, do you really think that some small supplement company could out engineer some $100B company like Pfizer or Merck? Don't you think that if these OTC products worked so well these pharma companies would just buy them?
    I don't want to create a whole unrelated **** storm about pharma companies but bottom line,

    SERMs > OTC
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    Quote Originally Posted by neverstop View Post
    my primary point is that the long term side effects are well known and understood. God knows what these OTC products do to you long term, so it really is not possible to compare side effects. Plus they simply don't work as well as the SERMs do. PLUS bodybuilders have been using SERMs for decades so the process and effects are documented and well understood.

    Lastly, if someone just thinks about it, do you really think that some small supplement company could out engineer some $100B company like Pfizer or Merck? Don't you think that if these OTC products worked so well these pharma companies would just buy them?
    I don't want to create a whole unrelated **** storm about pharma companies but bottom line,

    SERMs > OTC
    Excellent point. These small companies could be nothing more than a branch off of some cheesy vitamin or natural sexual enhancement company
    Quote Originally Posted by madds87 View Post
    Im not to fond of taking serm's for long periods of time....
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmmah View Post
    Novadex XT (oddly named closely to the most popular SERM nolvadex), which is actually a prohormone with some of the same ingredients as halodrol and not an AI at all (although it claims this on the label). This drug will actually suppress test production, the opposite of what it claims to do.

    The other day i saw a heath store version called arimadex labeled as an AI, I wonder what was in that, i doubt is was the breast cancer-drug Anastrozole, which is labeled under the brand name arimidex.

    AND: it doesnt mean much if it comes with a whole host of side effects, huh?

    How about the side effects of not running a proper PCT?
    1. Gyno
    2. Poor HPTA function including lower test levels
    3. Loss of a percentage of gains that could have been kept from restarting the body's natural production of test.
    nov xt is NOT a prohormone.

    It has ATD in, which is an AI.

    On what basis will it suppress test production?

    Here are 2 users with increases test levels:
    http://www.*************/forum/suppl...b-results.html
    http://www.sizematters.com.au/supple...ood-tests.html

    and of course there are the original clinical studies done with nov xt:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17460335
    ''Novedex XT resulted in average increases of 283%, 625%, 566%, and 438% for total testosterone (P=0.001), free testosterone (P=0.001), dihydrotestosterone (P=0.001), and the testosterone:estrogen ratio (P=0.001), respectively, whereas fat mass decreased 3.5% (P=0.026) during supplementation. '' ''This study indicates that Novedex XT significantly increases serum androgen levels and decreases fat mass.''
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark118 View Post
    nov xt is NOT a prohormone.

    It has ATD in, which is an AI.

    On what basis will it suppress test production?

    Here are 2 users with increases test levels:
    http://www.*************/forum/suppl...b-results.html
    http://www.sizematters.com.au/supple...ood-tests.html

    and of course there are the original clinical studies done with nov xt:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17460335
    ''Novedex XT resulted in average increases of 283%, 625%, 566%, and 438% for total testosterone (P=0.001), free testosterone (P=0.001), dihydrotestosterone (P=0.001), and the testosterone:estrogen ratio (P=0.001), respectively, whereas fat mass decreased 3.5% (P=0.026) during supplementation. '' ''This study indicates that Novedex XT significantly increases serum androgen levels and decreases fat mass.''
    yea and an AI is a terrible PCT. Crushing estrogen doesn't directly jumpstart LH production, if anything, it may worsen recovery. It may suppress test levels during pct by not allowing the body/pituitary to find a natural balance. By killing the estrogen off, with already zero testosterone, there is no estrogen present to "call to action" the pituitary into balancing a correct ratio of testosterone. If anything, during PCT you want HIGH estrogen, to call higher levels of T, but having the receptors blocked by a SERM, which is EXACTLY what a SERM does....

    The only reason test levels increase when using a POS AI like novedex is via the suppression of aromatase enzyme and its concurrent lowering of SHBG. This "free" up more bioavailable test levels, but does not directly increase the actual testosterone production by the body much at all.

    SERM's and/or HCG are the only drugs that actually raise LH levels. HCG does it directly to the the testicles (bad for recovery), SERM's do it secondarily by stimulating the pituitary WITH an artificial estrogen, not by suppressing estrogen.

    Using novedex xt and falling for its bullcrap advertising is half the reason why all these people take superdrol and all this other BS and have issues.


    The ONLY place for an AI is when your levels are high and sustained normally, then you can use an AI to control any ADDITIONAL HIGH ESTROGEN. Ex, on cycle with 500mg/test to control the extra pour over into estrogen.

    OR

    Using it in a pyrimiding fashion, AFTER using a SERM, this is to protect the now upregulated estrogen receptors from responding to the now returned levels of estrogen.
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    yea and an AI is a terrible PCT. Crushing estrogen doesn't directly jumpstart LH production, if anything, it may worsen recovery.

    The only reason test levels increase when using a POS AI like novedex is via the suppression of aromatase enzyme and its concurrent lowering of SHBG. This "free" up more bioavailable test levels, but does not directly increase the actual testosterone production by the body much at all.

    SERM's and/or HCG are the only drugs that actually raise LH levels. HCG does it directly to the the testicles (bad for recovery), SERM's do it secondarily by stimulating the pituitary WITH an artificial estrogen, not by suppressing estrogen.

    Using novedex xt and falling for its bullcrap advertising is half the reason why all these people take superdrol and all this other BS and have issues.
    read my points. i corrected timmmah's incorrect points that nov xt contains a prohormone, and that it lowers tests. i did not say i would use it for pct did I?

    but the point still stands, test levels increase, and over a short period of eg 4 weeks it is NOT suppressive. This is the point of nov xt, a testbooster.
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    OTC works fine for me. I've used serms too so don't all jump on meat once


    One thing is if your going OTC you need solid products, just any crap isn't going to cut it
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark118 View Post
    read my points. i corrected timmmah's incorrect points that nov xt contains a prohormone, and that it lowers tests. i did not say i would use it for pct did I?

    but the point still stands, test levels increase, and over a short period of eg 4 weeks it is NOT suppressive. This is the point of nov xt, a testbooster.
    didn't catch that part.
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    Quote Originally Posted by vpower View Post
    Which OTC ones have you guys used..I tend to stay away from SERMS, even if they are FDA approved, it doesnt mean much if it comes with a whole host of side effects
    seriously?

    and i agree with OP. some of my good friends use PH from time to time and they are convinced that what ever test booster or AI or whatever comes with the stack is sufficient. i take the time to try and explain why that isnt enough....but seldom do they listen...
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    didn't catch that part.
    no worries buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark118 View Post
    read my points. i corrected timmmah's incorrect points that nov xt contains a prohormone, and that it lowers tests. i did not say i would use it for pct did I?

    but the point still stands, test levels increase, and over a short period of eg 4 weeks it is NOT suppressive. This is the point of nov xt, a testbooster.
    That study you quoted calls novedex xt am AI, Which it is not nor does the study examine the contents of the product.

    The study shows an increase in test production by as much as 625% and you still think it's an Aromatase inhibitor? They don't do that dude, those are steroids.

    I didn't say that novadex xt lowers tests, I said it suppresses the body's natural production of test, the one thing one absolutely does not want out of a PCT drug. In those studies it increased test levels because those subjects were not using it to restart HPTA function, I would like to see a blood report on the subjects say, a month after the study? funny the study doesn't mention that.

    Etioallocholan and 17-trione are produced by the adrenal glands as part of a chain of hormonal changes that leads to testosterone. They are also part of the molecular makeup of androstenedione, a steroid hormone that was banned by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration in 2009.

    Etioallocholan and 17-trione are produced by the adrenal glands as part of a chain of hormonal changes that leads to testosterone. They are also part of the molecular makeup of androstenedione, a steroid hormone that was banned by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration in 2009.

    these are in both Hdrol and novadex xt, although the labeling is a little deceiving as they jumbled up their names, but not their molecular structure.
    Quote Originally Posted by madds87 View Post
    Im not to fond of taking serm's for long periods of time....
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    Well I Have to agree that the Novedex XT lowers testosterone. I have used that product various times and for different reasons, ie, ran solo, and ran as part of a OTC PCT a long time ago. It was good for like the first week and then by week two my sex drive and libido were way down. So I do not use that anymore and have not in a long time..

    I also agree that OTC PCT, when all said and done is more costly that the Serms.

    But I do NOT agree when you say that they are not effective. I have ran several PH/DS cycles over the years, from the originals, ie, Androstedione, and diol, etc, I even remember the Pinnacle poppers, LOL. I have ran Superdrol, Halodrol, Epistane, Bold, Phera etc, and I have always used OTC PCT. Now it was always like takining two steps forward (while on cycle) and one step back (at end of PCT). My last cycle I gained 21 pounds and when all was said and done, I kept 14, and yes, I am sure some was fat.

    My PCT included **** and Mr Supps products,

    1) HcGenerate
    2) Formastanzolol
    3) Unleased/Post Cycle
    4) Ancient Strength Creatine/Creatine Mono

    OTC PCT works for me, I am not saying that it will work for everybody. All I am saying is I have been in the game for over 20 years and I know what works for me and what doesn't.

    I have not posted here to draw heat from anybody, I came here just to respond to this thread IMO. I respect everyones opinion and wish everyone a good day. Take care..SJ
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    heres why.....

    ATD is a type of AI that is known as a Suicide Inhibitor. Most that I know of don't like using ATD's due to the fact that it kills the aromitase enzyme. Another and more popular AI you should read up on is a Competitive Inhibitor. In a Comp Inhibitor the molecule just fills the active binding site of the aromatase enzyme and won't let it act on your free test. This means the body still sees the aromatase enzyme floating around and doesn't register to make more enzymes. On the other hand, with something like ATD a suicide inhibitor, the body sees the lack of enzymes (due to ATD killing them) and makes more aromatase enzymes for use. Both will work for PCT, but again most will recommend a competitive AI. Do some reseach on Advanced PCT by Anabolic Xtreme. It contains 6-Bromo which is a Comp AI.

    i would just use a serm like nolva .. ATD is a suicide inhibitor ATD'S kill estrogen and you dont wanna do that..you just wanna regulate it. just my opinion

    ATD is not only a major libido killer, but it acts as an anti-androgen in the brain


    STOP USING ATD OTC PROCUCTS FOR PCT UNLESS IT CONTAINS A 6-BROMO PEOPLE !!!!! I GET TIRED OF POSTING THIS ! IF THESE INGREDIENCE ARE ON THE BOTTLE STAY AWAY FROM IT.... 1,4,6-Androstatrien-3,17-dione (ADT) AND
    3,17-keto-etiochol-triene
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmmah View Post
    That study you quoted calls novedex xt am AI, Which it is not nor does the study examine the contents of the product.

    The study shows an increase in test production by as much as 625% and you still think it's an Aromatase inhibitor? They don't do that dude, those are steroids.

    I didn't say that novadex xt lowers tests, I said it suppresses the body's natural production of test, the one thing one absolutely does not want out of a PCT drug. In those studies it increased test levels because those subjects were not using it to restart HPTA function, I would like to see a blood report on the subjects say, a month after the study? funny the study doesn't mention that.

    Etioallocholan and 17-trione are produced by the adrenal glands as part of a chain of hormonal changes that leads to testosterone. They are also part of the molecular makeup of androstenedione, a steroid hormone that was banned by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration in 2009.

    these are in both Hdrol and novadex xt, although the labeling is a little deceiving as they jumbled up their names, but not their molecular structure.
    Nov XT contains ATD, which is an AI. look up the ingredients.

    you're basing the comment it is a prohormone because it works to boost test too well?

    i never said i would use it in PCT, i was correcting your inaccurate statements/assumptions about the product.

    what would you expect to see in a blood test 1 month after? i'd expect a return to normal, i see no reason why one could assume anything else.

    please list the exact ingredient in the list of Nov XT that is prohormone, which is impossible as there isnt a prohormone in Nov XT.

    ''6, 17-keto-etiocholeve-3-ol tetrahydropyranol = non-androgenic anti-aromatase''
    ''3, 17-keto-etiochol-triene'' = ATD... which is an AI
    ''3', 5, 7-Trihydroxy-4'-Methoxyflavone = Hesperetin (which is a flavanoid)
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark118 View Post
    what would you expect to see in a blood test 1 month after? i'd expect a return to normal, i see no reason why one could assume anything else.
    After an increase in test by more than 600%, I would expect to see estrogen rebound and a tired, limp, young man whom is starting to grow boobies.

    After an increase in test by that much, one doesn't simply return to normal. What goes up, must come down.
    Quote Originally Posted by madds87 View Post
    Im not to fond of taking serm's for long periods of time....
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmmah View Post
    After an increase in test by more than 600%, I would expect to see estrogen rebound and a tired, limp, young man whom is starting to grow boobies.

    After an increase in test by that much, one doesn't simply return to normal. What goes up, must come down.
    please address all my points regarding the ingredients, and where the apparent prohormone is in nov xt

    and of course it will come back down to normal as the body returns to homeostasis once cessation of the products occurs after 4 weeks. and just because you expect it, doesnt make it so. look at the reviews, have you found any reports of this? or is also just speculation, like your idea nov xt includes a prohormone?
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark118 View Post
    please address all my points regarding the ingredients, and where the apparent prohormone is in nov xt

    and of course it will come back down to normal as the body returns to homeostasis once cessation of the products occurs after 4 weeks. and just because you expect it, doesnt make it so. look at the reviews, have you found any reports of this? or is also just speculation, like your idea nov xt includes a prohormone?

    heres your report...

    Why ATD should never be used for post cycle therapy: new study

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androgen receptor binding: a reexamination of the aromatization hypothesis.
    Kaplan ME, McGinnis MY.

    Department of Anatomy, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, CUNY, New York 10029.

    The aromatization hypothesis asserts that testosterone (T) must be aromatized to estradiol (E2) to activate copulatory behavior in the male rat. In support of this hypothesis, the aromatization inhibitor, ATD, has been found to suppress male sexual behavior in T-treated rats. In our experiment, we first replicated this finding by peripherally injecting ATD (15 mg/day) or propylene glycol into T-treated (two 10-mm Silastic capsules) or control castrated male rats. In a second experiment, we bilaterally implanted either ATD-filled or blank cannulae into the medial preoptic area (MPOA) of either T-treated or control castrated male rats. With this more local distribution of ATD, a lesser decline in sexual behavior was found, suggesting that other brain areas are involved in the neurohormonal activation of copulatory behavior in the male rat. To determine whether in vivo ATD interacts with androgen or estrogen receptors, we conducted cell nuclear androgen and estrogen receptor binding assays of hypothalamus, preoptic area, amygdala, and septum following treatment with the combinations of systemic T alone. ATD plus T, ATD alone, and blank control. In all four brain areas binding of T to androgen receptors was significantly decreased in the presence of ATD, suggesting that ATD may act both as an androgen receptor blocker and as an aromatization inhibitor. Competitive binding studies indicated that ATD competes in vitro for cytosol androgen receptors, thus substantiating the in vivo antiandrogenic effects of ATD. Cell nuclear estrogen receptor binding was not significantly increased by exposure to T in the physiological range. No agonistic properties of ATD were observed either behaviorally or biochemically. Thus, an alternative explanation for the inhibitory effects of ATD on male sexual behavior is that ATD prevents T from binding to androgen receptors.
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    This is from primordialperformance's website..

    " It converts to 1,4,6-testosterone, which would also be expected to cause falsely high readings for a testosterone analysis.

    The 1,4,6-testosterone metabolite of ATD can also bind to the androgen receptor (AR) and induce androgenic (or possibly anti-androgenic) effects similar to what is seen from 6-oxo. This would be expected since 1,4,6-testosterone has about one third the binding affinity for the AR, therefore it may interefere with the anabolic or androgenic action of hormones which bind the androgen receptor.

    ATD would also be expected to interfere with production of natural testosterone by acting upon the hypothalamus pituitary testicular axis (HPTA), therefore this compound should not be used during post cycle therapy (PCT), however it could successfully be used during a cycle to help keep estrogen in control. Anecdotal reports and animal studies have also shown ATD inhibits libido and general sexual potency. "
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    Quote Originally Posted by no reason;2812956[B
    ]heres your report...

    Why ATD should never be used for post cycle therapy: new study [/B]

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    Effects ....behavior is that ATD prevents T from binding to androgen receptors.
    can you not read?? i didnt say i advocate nov xt in pct. look:

    Quote Originally Posted by mark118 View Post
    Nov XT con.....

    i never said i would use it in PCT, i was c.....anoid)
    My points are:

    1: despite Timmah's assumptions, clinical studies show it raises test

    Quote Originally Posted by mark118 View Post
    Here are 2 users with increases test levels:
    http://www.*************/forum/suppl...b-results.html
    http://www.sizematters.com.au/supple...ood-tests.html

    and of course there are the original clinical studies done with nov xt:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17460335
    ''Novedex XT resulted in average increases of 283%, 625%, 566%, and 438% for total testosterone (P=0.001), free testosterone (P=0.001), dihydrotestosterone (P=0.001), and the testosterone:estrogen ratio (P=0.001), respectively, whereas fat mass decreased 3.5% (P=0.026) during supplementation. '' ''This study indicates that Novedex XT significantly increases serum androgen levels and decreases fat mass.''
    2: timmah insists that there is a PH, and not an AI, in Nov XT, based on how well it works. WRONG. if you look at the ingredients:

    Quote Originally Posted by mark118 View Post

    ''6, 17-keto-etiocholeve-3-ol tetrahydropyranol = non-androgenic anti-aromatase''
    ''3, 17-keto-etiochol-triene'' = ATD... which is an AI
    ''3', 5, 7-Trihydroxy-4'-Methoxyflavone = Hesperetin (which is a flavanoid)
    3: Timmah has made this assumption:

    Quote Originally Posted by timmmah View Post
    After an increase in test by more than 600%, I would expect to see estrogen rebound and a tired, limp, young man whom is starting to grow boobies.

    After an increase in test by that much, one doesn't simply return to normal. What goes up, must come down.
    Based on no clinical or anecdotal evidence, just another assumption. Test and oestrogen levels will return to normal when stopping the product as the body returns to homeostasis.

    4: not once in this thread do i say I would use Nov XT as PCT.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MikeGfilms View Post
    This is from primordialperformance's website..

    " It converts to 1,4,6-testosterone, which would also be expected to cause falsely high readings for a testosterone analysis.

    The 1,4,6-testosterone metabolite of ATD can also bind to the androgen receptor (AR) and induce androgenic (or possibly anti-androgenic) effects similar to what is seen from 6-oxo. This would be expected since 1,4,6-testosterone has about one third the binding affinity for the AR, therefore it may interefere with the anabolic or androgenic action of hormones which bind the androgen receptor.

    ATD would also be expected to interfere with production of natural testosterone by acting upon the hypothalamus pituitary testicular axis (HPTA), therefore this compound should not be used during post cycle therapy (PCT), however it could successfully be used during a cycle to help keep estrogen in control. Anecdotal reports and animal studies have also shown ATD inhibits libido and general sexual potency. "
    Finally.....
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    I havent had any problems with running natural sports supplements and kept most of my gains...I guess it really depends on how harsh cycle is/how long..There are other alternatives to Nolva and Clomid, thats all im saying.
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    Give me some good old Nolva and some Ostarine and im a happy guy.
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    Dont think Timmah is coming back....
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    FWIW..I ran a 4 week E-Pol (running 3 caps the last week and a half; 30mg SD 75mg Tren) cycle back in January of 2010, used only OTC pct, and recovered fine. Blood tests 2 months after my cycle showed mt test levels were at 573 ng/dL and lipids were in normal range. Maybe I'm just lucky idk lol.

    Btw, I was 20 years old at the time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gygas21 View Post
    FWIW..I ran a 4 week E-Pol (running 3 caps the last week and a half; 30mg SD 75mg Tren) cycle back in January of 2010, used only OTC pct, and recovered fine. Blood tests 2 months after my cycle showed mt test levels were at 573 ng/dL and lipids were in normal range. Maybe I'm just lucky idk lol.

    Btw, I was 20 years old at the time.
    At 20, i bet your test levels were somewhere in the 800-1000 zone. So unless you had prebloodwork to prove where you were at, i wouldnt call that recovered.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark118 View Post
    can you not read?? i didn't say i advocate nov xt in pct. look:
    not once in this thread do i say I would use Nov XT as PCT.
    You imply that you are an advocate of the use of this product as an effective PCT by your adamant defense of the product. The use of novadex xt as a proper pct is not study proven by any means. You may like the product, but for the uneducated viewers of this thread, you are doing them a disservice by giving them reason to not go through the trouble of figuring out a proper PCT and just use some OTC crap. This could effect these individuals negatively and it is irresponsible of you to do so.
    Quote Originally Posted by mark118 View Post
    3: Timmah has made this assumption:



    Based on no clinical or anecdotal evidence, just another assumption. Test and oestrogen levels will return to normal when stopping the product as the body returns to homeostasis.
    This IS an assumption, as is that the levels will magically return to normal after the discontinuation of use. Neither of which is proven as the study concludes with the test levels immediately following use. I bet if a poll were taken, most would agree with me that the subjects levels did not simply return to original levels. We will never know the real answer though, unless we Actually see blood results from say, a month after the study?
    Quote Originally Posted by madds87 View Post
    Im not to fond of taking serm's for long periods of time....
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    Quote Originally Posted by SuppJunkie View Post
    Well I Have to agree that the Novedex XT lowers testosterone. I have used that product various times and for different reasons, ie, ran solo, and ran as part of a OTC PCT a long time ago. It was good for like the first week and then by week two my sex drive and libido were way down. So I do not use that anymore and have not in a long time..

    I also agree that OTC PCT, when all said and done is more costly that the Serms.

    But I do NOT agree when you say that they are not effective. I have ran several PH/DS cycles over the years, from the originals, ie, Androstedione, and diol, etc, I even remember the Pinnacle poppers, LOL. I have ran Superdrol, Halodrol, Epistane, Bold, Phera etc, and I have always used OTC PCT. Now it was always like takining two steps forward (while on cycle) and one step back (at end of PCT). My last cycle I gained 21 pounds and when all was said and done, I kept 14, and yes, I am sure some was fat.

    My PCT included **** and Mr Supps products,

    1) HcGenerate
    2) Formastanzolol
    3) Unleased/Post Cycle
    4) Ancient Strength Creatine/Creatine Mono

    OTC PCT works for me, I am not saying that it will work for everybody. All I am saying is I have been in the game for over 20 years and I know what works for me and what doesn't.

    I have not posted here to draw heat from anybody, I came here just to respond to this thread IMO. I respect everyones opinion and wish everyone a good day. Take care..SJ
    I thought HCG wasn't good for Revovery?(PCT).
    Expose yourself to your deepest fear; after that, fear has no power, and the fear of freedom shrinks and vanishes. You are free.
    -Jim Morrison
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheMeatus101 View Post
    I thought HCG wasn't good for Revovery?(PCT).
    hcgenerate isn't hcg its some bullsh*t herbal stuff that steals the name, tricking you into believing it does the same thing. Just like nolvadex and novedex.

    I would respect OTC companies much more so if they didn't try to screw newbies over with these word games.
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    I dont care what the arguments on here are pushing for OTC,

    but;

    HCG on cycle plus a clomid PCT, tapered with arimidex will always win hands down no questions asked in terms of recovery time and trustworthyness.

    Why would you risk your endocrine system on some OTC bullsh*t.


    Theres a reason doctors prescribe clomid for restarting the HPTA and not tribulus/maca/novedex-xt.


    You dont take an OTC Herbal steroid do you? Cuz there isn't such thing, so why would you expect these OTC test booster herbals to pick up the slack...truth of the matter is your body is doing most of its work on its own, and you are just getting lucky by assisting it with OTC crap.

    If you want promising results and peace of mind knowing you protected every angle as much as possible dont f*ck with OTC crap when you are messing with real steroids. End of story.
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    Another one of these threads?

    If you have a SERM, consider yourself taken care of in the homeostasis recovery department.

    However, do not expect your libido to fair well, do not expect glycogen retention and muscle fullness to fair well, do not expect energy and intensity in the gym, and do not expect estrogen to go down.

    I agree, supplements aimed at homeostasis recovery will never work as efficiently as a SERM. But if you think recovery is the only aspect of sustaining gains that is retarded and so one-dimensional that its retarded in itself.

    I have seen guys on here come off SD into testosterone and still lose weight and strength, and you think a simple old SERM will take care of gains? Reaching homeostasis is way over rated in terms of keeping gains. Wayyyy over rated.

    There are other departments besides homeostatsis recovery which mean a lot for keeping gains. Take some Need2slin to sustain high glycogen and muscle fullness, take some creatine if you want the energy through ATP, strength, and muscle fullness. Take some Forma-stanzol near the ending of your PCT to drop risen estrogen levels due to SERM. If you want to be banging your wife or girlfriend during PCT get some HCGenerate.

    Notice I am not mentioning products aimed at recovery because a SERM is all you need for that. But if you wanna hit PCT hard and optimize every aspect of it for gain retention, you should really add some good supplements.

    A SERM on its own only raises LH levels. How much do you really expect that to help in sustaining new fragile muscle? Wouldn't you think shuttling nutrients through insulin mimickers and shuttling glycogen in the muscle is not useful for PCT? There is way more to the story than a SERM.

    SERM first. Everything else around it. And if you choose the right sh*t it wont be a waste of money. Pick good supplements for:

    Glycogen
    ATP
    Muscle fullness
    Strength
    Libido
    Insulin mimickers
    Estrogen control

    Don't buy sh*t aimed at "recovery." It's money down the drain if you already have a SERM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by timmmah View Post
    You imply that you are an advocate of the use of this product as an effective PCT by your adamant defense of the product. The use of novadex xt as a proper pct is not study proven by any means. You may like the product, but for the uneducated viewers of this thread, you are doing them a disservice by giving them reason to not go through the trouble of figuring out a proper PCT and just use some OTC crap. This could effect these individuals negatively and it is irresponsible of you to do so.

    This IS an assumption, as is that the levels will magically return to normal after the discontinuation of use. Neither of which is proven as the study concludes with the test levels immediately following use. I bet if a poll were taken, most would agree with me that the subjects levels did not simply return to original levels. We will never know the real answer though, unless we Actually see blood results from say, a month after the study?
    read what i wrote and address the points I made regarding your incorrect assertions. I have only been correcting your massively incorrect statements about this product. I have provided information, and bloods to show its legitimacy, yet repeatedly you've provided NO evidence to support your false claims that:

    -nov xt is a prohormone
    -nov xt is not an AI
    -nov xt is suppressive/lowers test
    -that once it boosts test, the levels will drop below that of pre-nov xt
    -taken an arbitrary time period of a 1 month for a following test to reassess bloods

    Now once again, here's my comments/corrections

    ''6, 17-keto-etiocholeve-3-ol tetrahydropyranol = non-androgenic anti-aromatase''
    ''3, 17-keto-etiochol-triene'' = ATD... which is an AI
    ''3', 5, 7-Trihydroxy-4'-Methoxyflavone = Hesperetin (which is a flavanoid)

    NO prohormone is in the ingredients.

    http://www.*************/forum/suppl...b-results.html
    http://www.sizematters.com.au/supple...ood-tests.html

    and of course there are the original clinical studies done with nov xt:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17460335

    There are more bloods done on it, but you can find those.

    studies to show that it boosts test, not suppress it. you have failed to show any study that nov xt lowers test

    and you made the arbitrary assumption that because test has risen, it must then fall below starting levels. Please show me clinical and/or anecdotal evidence for this, as I have never heard anything along these lines for nov xt.

    I dont work for gaspari, but it annoys me when grossly incorrect statements are made about legitimate products with literally no evidence to back them up.

    So do you:
    1: still think Nov Xt is a prohormone? and not an AI?
    2: still believe it lowers test?
    3: think the studies are fraudulent?
    4: still think that there is a drop in baseline test upon cessation of nov xt?

    And once again, I would not run Nov XT as a PCT. I never said I would!
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    Quote Originally Posted by no reason View Post
    heres why.....

    ATD is a type of AI that is known as a Suicide Inhibitor. Most that I know of don't like using ATD's due to the fact that it kills the aromitase enzyme. Another and more popular AI you should read up on is a Competitive Inhibitor.
    This is interesting. I know that ATD kills libido and I stay away from it. But on the other hand - products like Erase and Formestane are also suicide inhibitors (right?). I love those products - they make me feel warm and fuzzy and barbaric on the inside - and horny as hell. So ... if killing the aromatase enzyme is a bad thing - why does Erase and Formestane hurt me so good?

    Just trying to learn.
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    People on here make a good point .

    My friend did a m drol cycle for 6 weeks took nothing no cycle assist whatsoever and no pct he lost sll his gains but was fine, so i am confused when people say this snd that bottum line is .... Serms work best .. Fact! Otc can work?? Hopfuly for the newbi.

    But can a serm cause repound gyno?? If used when not needed ??

    When is a serm 100% needed? Take Competitive Edge Labs
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    Let me say diffrently ...

    Im a newbi and if anyone could tell me anything about p mag? Will i need a serm? If so what one? Thanks
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    Quote Originally Posted by neverstop View Post
    100% agreed. Plus they are not tested to the same standards are SERMs which have been FDA approved and used in medical settings for decades.
    Because, I suppose the OTC research serms are much more efficient and much safer. The only sure way is to get one prescribed or illegally obtain prescriptions, though I can't advocate the illegal route.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pika View Post
    People on here make a good point .


    But can a serm cause repound gyno?? If used when not needed ??
    It hasn't in me. Sometimes I'll take 6 weeks of Torem after an Epi cycle of only 2 weeks. I like the torem - and I think, stand alone ... it's kind of "therapy" on it's own. Can't say that for Clomid or Nolva - I haven't taken those. Clomid has emotional sides for many. Nolva almost universally kills libido.

    Torem - I can't find a single damn side effect to it. I feel great - and it boosts my libido.
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