epistane/havoc vs. anavar mg per mg (for those who used both)

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    epistane/havoc vs. anavar mg per mg (for those who used both)


    how did they compare in terms of strength and lean gains for you?
    people seem to have excellent results with 100mg anavar. how would results be with say, 80mg epistane?
    i am hoping for answers other than "take the real steroid" or "epistane at that dose is crazy" but experience of people who used both.

    thanks for any input

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    lol dang 80mg is VERY high for epi. but subbed for info
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    i understand but 100mg is also high for anavar. i am just really wondering how they compare, as people have such great results with that var dose and epi may be a bit stronger mg per mg. and a lot cheaper.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redman24 View Post
    i understand but 100mg is also high for anavar. i am just really wondering how they compare, as people have such great results with that var dose and epi may be a bit stronger mg per mg. and a lot cheaper.
    ive honestly not researched or personally seen any *real* oral other than dbol, so i have no clue. but i will say you wont be disappointed with epi. i would try something like 40/40/50/50 if you wanna play around with real results the legal/cheaper route. have you used var? would be interesting to compare the two
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    let me post up the write up on both of these drugs for you
    Test e/dbol/epi/winnie
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/cycle-info/164764-schwellington-has-been.html
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    Havoc (methepitiostaneJ
    Androgenic 91
    OH Anabolic 1100 Standard Methyltestosterone (oral)
    Chemical Name 2alpha,3alpha-epithio-17alpha-methylSalpha-androstan-17beta-ol
    Estrogenic Activity none
    Progestational Activity none
    Description:
    Methepitiostane is an oral anabolic AAS derived from dihydrotestosterone. This agent is a c17-alpha alkylated analog of epitiostane (see Thioderon), and like this drug also displays a favorable balance between anabolic and androgenic effect. In this case, however, the separation is considerably more pronounced, with the drug exhibiting an anabolic effect that is roughly 12 times more pronounced than its androgenic effect.That is according to the standard animal assays, which often vary somewhat to experiences in humans. This drug was never clinical tested in humans, so what is known of it is based on a small number of animal experiments, and structural and anecdotal observations. What can be stated with certainty if that methepitiostane is a primarily anabolic AAS with a pronounced level of activity, and is effective for the promotion of lean mass and strength gains. It likely also imparts some anti-estrogenic effect, further strengthening the association between this agent and dieting, cutting, and lean muscle mass phases of training as opposed to bulking.
    History:
    Methepitiostane was first described in 1966, during investigations into a series of A-ring modified androstane derivatives.571 That same year it was assayed for anabolic and androgenic potency via the standard rat assays, and demonstrated both pronounced anabolic properties and very weak relative androgenicity.572 The assay results were probably most similar to desoxymethyltestosterone (Madol), although methepitiostane is about half as androgenic. Although the results of the early testing were very favorable, this agent never progressed to the point of being a commercial AAS product or even tested on human subjects. Like a great many steroids, it was examined but not actualized as a prescription product. For forty years, the agent would be lost to the public, existing as an item of research interest only.
    267
    /'
    5
    '-
    Methepitiostane
    Methepitiostane would emerge from research obscurity at the end of 2006, when a new company called Recomp Performance Nutrition introduced it to the U.S. market under the trade name Havoc. It would be sold openly as a dietary supplement.This channel of sales does not reflect a weak potency or "non-AAS" classification, however, as methepitiostane is very much a potent drug. It is being sold as such due to the fact that the u.s. dietary supplement market is not tightly regulated, and the drug was never classified (specifically according to the law) as an anabolic AAS. While regulations do exist that would prevent the sale of an unapproved new drug as a food supplement, they do not carry the same weight as the anabolic AAS laws, and have historically not been aggressively enforced. Methepitiostane remains on sale as of December 2006, although the manufacturer has stated that they plan to discontinue the product very shortly.
    How Supplied:
    Methepitiostane was never approved as a prescription drug preparation. It is being sold in the U.S. supplement market under the trade name Havoc, and is supplied in the form of capsules containing 10 mg of AAS.
    Structural Characteristics:
    Methepitiostane is a modified form of dihydrotestosterone. It differs by 1) the addition of a 17alpha methyl group, which helps protect the AAS from metabolism during oral administration, and 2) the
    replacement of 3-keto increases anabolic streandrogenicity.
    with ngth
    2,3alpha-epithio, which while reducing relative
    Side Effects (Estrogenic):
    Methepitiostane is not aromatized by the body, and is not measurably estrogenic. Furthermore, its non-methylated analog mepitiostane (Thioderon) is used clinically for its inherent antiestrogenic effect. Some level of antiestrogenic
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    04-29-2010 06:21 PM #2
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    William Llewellyn's ANABOLICS, 91h ed.
    effect is also assumed with methepitiostane. An antiestrogen is, likewise, not necessary when using this AAS, as gynecomastia should not be a concern even among sensitive individuals. Since estrogen is the usual culprit with water retention, this AAS instead produces a lean, quality look to the physique with no fear of excess subcutaneous fluid retention. This makes it a favorable AAS to use during cutting cycles, when water and fat retention are major concerns. Note that some users may notice lethargy with this AAS, which may be due, in part, to its low androgenic or estrogenic component. Stacking it with an aromatizable androgen like testosterone should alleviate this problem.
    Side Effects (Androgenic):
    Although classified as an anabolic AAS, androgenic side effects are still possible with this substance, especially with higher doses. This may include bouts of oily skin, acne, and body/facial hair growth. Anabolic/androgenic steroids may also aggravate male pattern hair loss. Women are warned of the potential virilizing effects of anabolic/androgenic steroids. These may include a deepening of the voice, menstrual irregularities, changes in skin texture, facial hair growth, and clitoral enlargement. Methepitiostane is a AAS with very low androgenic activity relative to its tissue-building actions, making the threshold for strong androgenic side effects comparably higher than with more androgenic agents such as testosterone, methandrostenolone, or fluoxymesterone. Note that methepitiostane is unaffected by the S-alpha reductase enzyme, so its relative androgenicity is not affected by the concurrent use of finasteride or dutasteride.
    Side Effects (Hepatotoxicity):
    Methepitiostane is a c17-alpha alkylated compound. This alteration protects the drug from deactivation by the liver, allowing a very high percentage of the drug entry into the bloodstream following oral administration. e17-alpha alkylated anabolic/androgenic steroids can be hepatotoxic. Prolonged or high exposure may result in liver damage. In rare instances life-threatening dysfunction may develop. It is advisable to visit a physician periodically during each cycle to monitor liver function and overall health. Intake of c17-alpha alkylated steroids is commonly limited to 6-8 weeks, in an effort to avoid escalating liver strain.
    The use of a liver detoxification supplement such as Liver Stabil, Liv-52, or Essentiale Forte is advised while taking any hepatotoxic anabolic/androgenic steroids.
    Side Effects (Cardiovascular):
    Anabolic/androgenic steroids can have deleterious effects on serum cholesterol. This includes a tendency to reduce HDL (good) cholesterol values and increase LDL (bad) cholesterol values, which may shift the HDL to LDL balance in a direction that favors greater risk of arteriosclerosis. The relative impact of an anabolic/androgenic AAS on serum lipids is dependant on the dose, route of administration (oral vs. injectable), type of AAS (aromatizable or non-aromatizable), and level of resistance to hepatic metabolism. Methepitiostane has a strong effect on the hepatic management of cholesterol due to its structural resistance to liver breakdown, non-aromatizable nature, and route of administration. Anabolic/androgenic steroids may also adversely affect blood pressure and triglycerides, reduce endothelial relaxation, and support left ventricular hypertrophy, all potentially increasing the risk of cardiovascular disease and myocardial infarction.
    To help reduce cardiovascular strain it is advised to maintain an active cardiovascular exercise program and minimize the intake of saturated fats, cholesterol, and simple carbohydrates at all times during active AAS administration. Supplementing with fish oils (4 grams per day) and a natural cholesterollantioxidant formul.a such as Lipid Stabil or a product with comparable ingredients is also recommended.
    Side EffectUTestosterone Suppression):
    All anabolic/androgenic steroids when taken in doses sufficient to promote muscle gain are expected to suppress endogenous testosterone production. Without the intervention of testosterone stimulating substances, testosterone levels should return to normal within 1-4 months of drug secession. Note that prolonged hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism can develop secondary to AAS abuse, necessitating medical intervention.
    The above side effects are not inclusive. For more detailed discussion ofpotential side effects, see the AAS Side Effects section ofthis book.
    Administration (Men):
    Methepitiostane was never approved for use in humans., Prescribing guidelines are unavailable. An effective dosage for physique-or performance-enhancing; purposes falls in the range of 10-20 mg daily.This is usuallyl taken for no longer than 6-8 weeks, in an effort to avoidl significant liver strain. At this level the drug should impartl' a measurable but moderate lean-mass-building effect, which, depending on dletary and metabolic factors, mayl be accompanied by measurable fat loss and an increase in! definition. Doses of 30 mg per day are also commonly! used, however given the high relative potency of the!
    268
    William Llewellyn'S ANABDLICS, 9th ed.
    AAS may present significant hepatotoxicity. When administered, higher doses are usually taken for durations lasting no longer than 4-6 weeks.
    Administration (Women):
    Methepitiostane was never approved for use in humans. Prescribing guidelines are unavailable. An effective dosage for physique-or performance-enhancing purposes would be around 5 mg per day. This would be taken for no longer than 4-6 weeks, in an effort to avoid significant liver strain or virilizing side effects. Given that complete separation of anabolic and androgenic effect has not been achieved with any AAS, this agent is still capable of producing virilizing activity given the right dose or individual sensitivity.
    Availability:
    Methepitiostane is currently only produced in U.S. as a sports nutrition product, sold as Havoc and under numerous other brand names.
    269
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    Anavar (oxandrolone)
    Androgenic 24
    Anabolic 322-630
    Standard Methyltestosterone (oral)
    Chemical Names 17b-hydroxy-17a-methyl-2-oxa-5aand rosta ne-3-one
    Estrogenic Activity none
    Progestational Activity none
    Description:
    Oxandrolone is an oral anabolic AAS derived from
    dihydrotestosterone.lt was designed to have a very strong
    separation of anabolic and androgenic effect, and no
    significant estrogenic or progestational activity.
    Oxandrolone is noted for being quite mild as far as oral
    steroids are concerned, well tailored for the promotion of
    strength and quality muscle tissue gains without
    significant side effects. Milligram for milligram it displays as
    much as six times the anabolic activity of testosterone in
    \1
    assays, with significantly less androgenicity.398 This drug is
    I
    a favorite of dieting bodybuilders and competitive athletes
    I
    in speed/anaerobic performance sports, where its
    tendency for pure tissue gain (without fat or water
    retention) fits well with the desired goals.
    1
    History:
    .' Oxandrolone was first described in 1962.399 It was 'developed into a medicine several years later by pharmaceutical giant G.D. Searle & Co. (now Pfizer), which
    , sold it in the United States and the Netherlands under the Anavar trade name. Searle also sold/licensed the drug under differe~t trade names including Lonavar (Argentina, Australia), Lipidex (Brazil), Antitriol (Spain), Anatrophill (France), and Protivar. Oxandrolone was designed to be an extremely mild oral anabolic, one that could even be used safely by women and children. In this regard Searle seems to have succeeded, as Anavar has shown a high degree of therapeutic success and tolerability in men, women, and children alike. During its early years, Anavar had been offered for a number of therapeutic applications, including the promotion of lean tissue growth during catabolic illness, the promotion of lean tissue growth following surgery, trauma, infection, or prolonged corticosteroid administration, or the support of bone density in patients with osteoporosis.
    By the 1980's, the FDA had slightly refined the approved
    applications of oxandrolone to include the promotion of
    159
    OH
    a
    O~ Oxandrolone
    weight gain following surgery, chronic infection, trauma, or weight loss without definite pathophysiologic reason. In spite of its ongoing track record of safety, Searle decided to voluntarily discontinue the sale of Anavar on July 1, 1989. Lagging sales and growing public concern about the athletic use of anabolic steroids appeared to be at the root of this decision. With the Anavar brand off the market, oxandrolone had completely vanished from U.S. pharmacies. Soon after, oxandrolone products in international markets (often sold by or under license from Searle) began to disappear as well, as the leading global manufacturer of the drug continued its withdrawal from the anabolic AAS business. For several years during the early 1990's, it looked as if Anavar might be on its way out of commerce for good.
    It would be approximately six years before oxandrolone tablets would be back on the U.S. market. The product returned to pharmacy shelves in December 1995, this time under the Oxandrin name by Bio-Technology General Corp. (BTG). BTG would continue selling it for the FDA approved uses involving lean mass preservation, but had also been granted orphan-drug status for the treatment of AIDS wasting, alcoholic hepatitis, Turner's syndrome in girls, and constitutional delay of growth and puberty in boys. Orphan drug status gave BTG a 7-year monopoly on the drug for these new uses, allowing them to protect a very high selling price. Many patients were outraged to learn that the drug would cost them (at wholesale price) between $3.75 and $30 per day, which was many times more costly than Anavar had been just several years back. The release of a 10 mg tablet from BTG several years later did little to reduce the relative cost of the drug.
    Oxandrin® continues to be sold in the U.S., but is now under the Savient label (formerly known as BTG). It is currently approved by the FDA for "adjunctive therapy to promote weight gain after weight loss following extensive surgery, chronic infections, or severe trauma and in some patients who without definite pathophysiologic reasons
    Willianl Llewellyn's' ANABOLICS, 9111 ed.
    fail to gain or to maintain normal weight, to offset the protein catabolism associated with prolonged administration of corticosteroids, and for the relief of the bone pain frequently accompanying osteoporosis." Savient remains heavily invested in Oxandrin, which as of 2005 accounted for 52% of its net sales. Generic versions of the drug are expected to be approved in the u.s. very shortly, however, and promise to reduce the price of oxandrolone therapy. Outside of the U.S., oxandrolone remains available, although not widely.
    How Supplied:
    Oxandrolone is available in select human drug markets. Composition and dosage may vary by country and manufacturer. The original Anavar brand contained 2.5 mg of AAS per tablet. Oxandrin contains 2.5 mg or 10 mg per tablet. Other modern brands commonly contain
    2.5 mg, 5 mg, or 10 mg of AAS per tablet.
    Structural Characteristics:
    Oxanclrolone is a modified form of dihydrotestosterone.lt differs by: 1) the addition of a methyl group at carbon 17alpha to protect the hormone during oral administration and 2) the substitution of carbon-2 in the A-ring with an oxygen atom. Oxandrolone is the only commercially available AAS with such a substitution to its basic ring structure, an alteration that considerably increases the anabolic strength of the AAS (partly by making it resistant to metabolism by 3-hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase in skeletal muscle tissue).
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    04-29-2010 03:17 PM #2
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    Side Effects (Estrogenic):
    Oxandrolone is not aromatized by the body, and is not measurably estrogenic. Oxandrolone also offers no related progestational activity.4oo An anti-estrogen is not necessary when using this AAS, as gynecomastia should not be a concern even among sensitive individuals. Since estrogen is the usual culprit with water retention, oxandrolone instead produces a lean, quality look to the physique with no fear of excess subcutaneous fluid retention. This makes it a favorable AAS to use during cutting cycles, when water and fat retention are major concerns. Oxandrolone is also very popular among athletes in strength/speed sports such as sprinting, swimming, and gymnastics. In such disciplines one usually does not want to carry around excess water weight, and may find the raw muscle-growth brought about by oxandrolone to be quite favorable over the lower quality mass gains of aromatizable agents.
    Side Effects (Androgenic):
    Although classified as an anabolic AAS,androgenic side effects are still possible with this substance. This may include bouts of oily skin, acne, and body/facial hair growth. Anabolic/androgenic steroids may also aggravate male pattern hair loss.Women 9re warned of the potential virilizing effects of anabolic/androgenic steroids. These may include a deepening of the voice, menstrual irregularities, changes in skin texture, facial hair growth, and clitoral enlargement. Oxandrolone is a AAS with low androgenic activity relative to its tissue-building actions, making the threshold for strong androgenic sidE effects comparably higher than with more androgenic agents such as testosterone, methandrostenolone, 01 fluoxymesterone.
    The low androgenic activity of oxandrolone is due in par to it being a derivative of dihydrotestosterone.This.creat e a less androgenic AAS because the agent lacks thl capacity to interact with the 5-alpha reductase enzyml and convert to a more potent"di-hydro"form.This is unlikf testosterone, which is several times more active it androgen responsive target tissues such as the scalp, skir and prostate (where 5-alpha reductase is present in higl amounts) due to its conversion to DHT. In essenCE oxandrolone has a more balanced level of potenc between muscle and androgenic target tissues. This is
    I
    similar situation as is noted with Primobolan and Winstro which are also derived from dihydrotestosterone and nc known to be very androgenic substances.
    Side Effects (Hepatotoxicity):
    Oxandrolone is a c17-alpha alkylated compound. Th alteration protects the drug from deactivation by the livE allowing a very high percentage of the drug entry into t~ bloodstream following oral administration. C17-alp~ alkylated anabolic/androgenic steroids can t hepatotoxic. Prolonged or high exposure may result I liver damage. In rare instances Iife-threatenin dysfunction may develop. It is advisable to visit physician periodically during each cycle to monitor livt function and overall health. Intake of c17-alpha alkylate steroids is commonly limited to 6-8 weeks, in an effort t avoid escalating liver strain.
    Oxandrolone appears to offer less hepatic stress thai other c-17 alpha alkylated steroids. The manufactur€ identifies oxandrolone as a AAS that is not extensiveli metabolized by the liver like other 17-alpha alkylatel, orals, which may be a factor in its reduced hepatotoxicit~ This is evidenced by the fact that more than a third of th! compound is still intact when excreted in the urine.4o
    l
    Another study comparing the effects of oxandrolone t~ other alkylated agents including methyltestosteronJ
    I
    norethandrolone, fluoxymesterone, and methandrid\ demonstrated that oxandrolone causes the lowes"1 sulfobromophthalein (SSP; a marker of liver stress! retention of the agents tested.402 20 mg of oxandrolon€
    160
    produced 72% less SSP retention than an equal dosage of fluoxymesterone, which is a considerable difference being that they are both 17-alpha alkylated.
    A more recent study looked at escalating doses (20 mg,40 mg,and 80 mg) ofoxandrolonein 262 HIV+ men.The drug was administered for a period of 12 weeks. The group taking 20 mg of oxandrolone per day showed no statistically significant trends of hepatotoxicity in liver enzyme (AST/ALT; aminotransferase and alanine aminotransferase) values. Those men taking 40 mg noticed a mean increase of approximately 30-500/0 in liver enzyme values, while the group of men taking 80 mg noticed an approximate 50-1000/0 increase. Approximately 10-11 % of the patients in the 40 mg group noticed World Health Organization grade III and IV toxicity according to AST and ALT values. This figure jumped to 150/0 in the 80 mg group. While serious hepatotoxicity cannot be excluded with oxandrolone, these studies do suggest that it is measurably safer than other alkylated agents.
    The use of a liver detoxification supplement such as Liver Stabil, Liv-52, or Essentiale Forte is advised while taking any hepatotoxic anabolic/androgenic steroids.
    Side Effects (Cardiovascular):
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    04-29-2010 03:18 PM #3
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    Anabolic/androgenic steroids can have deleterious effects Ion serum cholesterol. This includes a tendency to reduce I HDL (good) cholesterol values and increase LCIL (bad) ,cholesterol values, which may shift the HDL to LDL "balance in a direction that favors greater risk of "arteriosclerosis. The relative impact of an
    anabolic/androgenic AAS on serum lipids is dependant 'on the dose, route of administration (oral vs. injectable), Itype of AAS (aromatizable or non-aromatizable), and !'Ievel of resistance to hepatic metabolism. Oxandrolone 'has a strong effect on the hepatic management of cholesterol due to its structural resistance to liver breakdown, non-aromatizable nature, and route of administration. In the previously cited study in HIV+ males, 20 mg of oxandrolone daily for 12 weeks caused a mean serum HDL reduction of 30%. HDL values were suppressed 33°10 in the 40 mg group, and 50% in the 80 mg group. This was accompanied by a statistically significant increase in LDL values (approximately 30-33%) in the 40 mg and 80 mg groups, further increasing atherogenic risk. Anabolic/androgenic steroids may also adversely effect blood pressure and triglycerides, reduce endothelial relaxation, and support left ventricular hypertrophy, all potentially increasing the risk of :ardiovascular disease and myocardial infarction.
    ~t one time oxandrolone was looked at as a possible drug :r those suffering from disorders of high cholesterol or :riglycerides. Early studies showed it to be capable of
    William Llewellyn's ANAHULICS, 9th ed.
    lowering total cholesterol and triglyceride values in certain types of hyperlipidemic patients, which was thought to signify potential for this drug as a Iipidlowering agent.403 With further investigation it was found, however, that any lowering of total cholesterol values was accompanied by a redistribution in the ratio of good (HDL) to bad (LDL) cholesterol that favored greater atherogenic risk.404 405This negatesanypositiveeffectthis drug might have on triglycerides or total cholesterol, and actually makes it a potential danger in terms of cardiac risk, especially when taken for prolonged periods of time. Today we understand that as a group, anabolic/androgenic steroids tend to produce unfavorable changes in lipid profiles, and are really not useful in disorders of lipid metabolism. As an oral c17 alpha alkylated AAS, oxandrolone is even more risky to use in this regard than an esterified injectable such as a testosterone or nandrolone.
    To help reduce cardiovascular strain it is advised to maintain an active cardiovascular exercise program and minimize the intake of saturated fats, cholesterol, and simple carbohydrates at all times during active AAS administration. Supplementing with fish oils (4 grams per day) and a natural cholesterol/antioxidant formula such as Lipid Stabil or a product with comparable ingredients is also recommended.
    Side Effects (Testosterone Suppression):
    All anabolic/androgenic steroids when taken in doses sufficient to promote muscle gain are expected to suppress endogenous testosterone production. Oxandrolone is no exception. In the above-cited study on HIV+ males, twelve weeks of 20 mg or 40 mg per day caused an approximate 450/0 reduction in serum testosterone levels.The group taking 80 mg noticed a 66% decrease in testosterone. Similar trends of decrease were noticed in LH production, ,with the 20 mg and 40 mg doses causing a 25-30% reduction, and the 80 mg group noticing a decline of more than 50°10. Additionally, studies on boys with constitutionally delayed puberty have demonstrated significant suppression of endogenous LH and testosterone with as little as 2.5 mg per day.406 Without the intervention of testosterone stimulating substances, testosterone levels should return to normal within 1-4 months of drug secession. Note that prolonged hypogonadotrophic hypogonadism can develop secondary to AAS abuse, necessitating medical intervention.
    The above side effects are not inclusive. For more detailed discussion ofpotential side effects, see the AAS Side Effects section ofthis book.
    161
    William Llewellyn"s ANAIIULllil, lIn eo.
    Administration (General):
    Studies have shown that taking an oral anabolic AAS with food may decrease its bioavailability.407 This is caused by the fat-soluble nature of AAS hormones, which can allow some of the drug to dissolve with undigested dietary fat, reducing its absorption from the gastrointestinal tract. For maximum utilization, this AAS should be taken on an empty stomach.
    Administration (Men):
    The original prescribing guidelines for Anavar called for a daily dosage of between 2.5 mg and 20 mg per day (5-10 mg being most common). This was usually recommended for a period of two to four weeks, but occasionally it was taken for as long as three months. The dosing guidelines recommended with the current u.s. production form of the drug (Oxandrin, Savient Pharmaceuticals) also call for between 2.5 and 20 mg of drug per day, taken in intermittent cycles of 2 to 4 weeks. The usual dosage for physique-or performance-enhancing purposes is in the range of 15-25 mg per day, taken for 6 to 8 weeks. These protocols are not far removed from those of normal therapeutic situations.
    Oxandrolone is often combined with other steroids for a more dramatic result. For example, while bulking one might opt to add in 200-400 mg of a testosterone ester (cypionate, enanthate, or propionate) per week. The result should be a considerable gain in new muscle mass, with a more comfortable level of water and fat retention than if taking a higher dose of testosterone alone. For dieting phases, one might alternately combine oxandrolone with a non-aromatizing AAS such as 150 mg per week of a trenbolone ester or 200-300 mg of Primobolan® (methenolone enanthate). Such stacks are highly favored for increasing definition and muscularity. An in-between (lean mass gain) might be to add in 200-400 mg ofalow estrogenic compound like Deca-Durabolin® (nandrolone decanoate) or Equipoise® (boldenone undecylenate).
    Administration (Women):
    The original prescribing guidelines for Anavar did not offer separate dosing recommendations for women, although it was indicated that women who were pregnant, or may become pregnant, should not use the drug. The current guidelines for Oxandrin also do not make special dosing recommendations for women. Women who fear the masculinizing effects of many steroids would be quite comfortable using this drug, as these properties are very rarely seen with low doses. For physique-or performance-enhancing purposes, a daily dosage of 5-10 mg should illicit considerable growth without the noticeable androgenic side effects of other drugs. This would be taken for no longer than 4-6 weeks. Eager females may wish to add another mild anabolic such as Winstrol®, Primobolan® or Durabolin®. When combined with such anabolics, the user should notice faster, more pronounced muscle-building effects, but it may also increase the likelihood of seeing androgenic side effects (or hepatotoxicity in the case ofWinstrol).
    Availability:
    Oxandrolone has been limited in supply,and scarce on thE black market, for many years now. There are a number o· legitimate brands still made, however. Below are some 0' the more popular items on the black market.
    Atlantis (Mexico) produces an oxandrolone product calle< Xtendrol.lt carries 2.5 mg of AAS per tablet, and come in abox of 30 tablets each. This is a legitimate human-us, pharmaceutical company, with products sold through rec pharmacies in Mexico.
    Bonavar from Body Research (Thailand) seems to be il production again. Be sure your product looks like th legitimate item in the product identification section, a counterfeits of the Body Research line are known to exis'
    Oxandrolone is sold in the U.S. by Savient Pharmaceutical under the Oxandrin brand name. It comes in both 2.5 m and 10 mg tablet strengths. High price at the pharmac' precludes any reasonable entry into the black market.Th would be a high-risk item regardless, as real u.s. steroic rarely circulate the black market.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redman24 View Post
    how did they compare in terms of strength and lean gains for you?
    people seem to have excellent results with 100mg anavar. how would results be with say, 80mg epistane?
    i am hoping for answers other than "take the real steroid" or "epistane at that dose is crazy" but experience of people who used both.

    thanks for any input
    I have used both. and both are real oral steroids. so you can get that stupid disbelief out of your mind.

    for the title of your thread, mg for mg, epistane is a stronger compound.

    60-80mg of var i'd say would be a good solo dosage to run for 6 weeks.

    30-50mg of epistane seems to be a good solo dosage of epistane to run for 6 weeks.

    I'd say if you can afford to run anavar at around 80mg e/d, you will greatly enjoy that more so than epistane.

    but, epistane is legal, and much cheaper.
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    i realize its a steroid, i was just making a reference to typical responses people give to these kind of questions.
    also, schwell, thanks for posting those profiles but i am more interested in peoples direct experience as i have all the theoretical knowledge one could have, yet i find it more interesting to get direct responses from real people.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redman24 View Post
    i realize its a steroid, i was just making a reference to typical responses people give to these kind of questions.
    also, schwell, thanks for posting those profiles but i am more interested in peoples direct experience as i have all the theoretical knowledge one could have, yet i find it more interesting to get direct responses from real people.

    I don't have an experience with both of these compounds but i can tell you from people i know and seen in real world experience.

    A typical - minimum effective - dose of UGL Anavar is 70mg in comparison to a legit pharma grade Anavar which is 40mg.

    Epistane at 40-50mg has very very similar effects with both Anavar "versions" at the doses i stated.
    Generally expect way more ++ with Epistane than Anavar:
    - At the stated doses Epistane will have very similar effects appearance wise - meaning fullness. & hardness
    - Even as 17aa anabolics both these drugs have mild liver toxicity but Anavar has greater impact on lipid profile than Epistane which is a big ++.
    - Both these drugs seem to be most effective when being used at their standard - lowest effective - doses for at least 6 weeks with usual duration 6-8 weeks into a cycle. Another big ++ is the fact that Epistane is significantly inexpensive in comparison to Anavar(Example: a 6 week cycle with Epistane at 40mg ED would cost around 140-160$ - a 6 week with a UGL Anavar dosed at 70mg ED would cost 290-310$)
    - Another ++ of Epistane is the fact that it gives very similar or even greater strength gains to Anavar but also it haves some pretty good LBM gains which Anavar hasn't at all.
    - A final ++ is that Epistane due to it's parent hormone Epitiostane, seems to have retained some of it's SERM properties.
    All information provided by me is for research & entertainment purposes only.
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    I have never used epistane, but I have read many positive comments about his power similar to the anabolic oxandrolone. with regard to my experience, I used the oxandrolone for many months, but was monitored by my doctor that I had prescribed therapy. I've had good earnings, so I increased many kilos. But keep in mind that I was underweight and I was prescribed therapy for this reason.
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    anavar has a tighter binding to the AR than epi if im not mistaken. But if you can afford high dose of anavar do anavar dude


    if not epistane is still a favorite of mine for recomping leaning up
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    Quote Originally Posted by redman24 View Post
    i realize its a steroid, i was just making a reference to typical responses people give to these kind of questions.
    also, schwell, thanks for posting those profiles but i am more interested in peoples direct experience as i have all the theoretical knowledge one could have, yet i find it more interesting to get direct responses from real people.
    you are going to have to be more specific. what are you looking for from a compound? you are being too vauge, which is why I generalized my answer to your very broad question.

    with just what you are giving/asking, anavar is a weaker compound mg for mg, but anavar is a compund you'll most likely feel better on, even in higher dosages.

    anavar is a better steroid if able to run at appropriate dosage than epistane.

    I think there are very few people who that have used both that would disagree.
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    your first sentence is unnecessary. the rest of your post is mostly the kind of information i was looking for.
    so epistane would be stronger but likely feel worse than var at a high dose so it wouldnt make sense to choose this compound for me.

    what i am looking for is strength mostly and reason i am asking is because i have been running var at 100mg for 20 days and the only source that has a good price for me is being complicated so i was wondering wether it is a reasonable possibility to continue the run with havoc. (not an only cycle, test/drostanolone is being run also)

    however i might just finish what i have of test/masteron and get off since i have the sudden urge to not take steroids right now. then again, i may change my mind.
    schwell is kind of my idol :-p
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    anavar at 100 mgs blows 50mgs of epistane out of the water there knuff said
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    more gains more sides.

    if it is strength you are looking for, high dosage of epistane would provide superior strength gains, it is a much stronger compound than anavar. but at 60mg, your strength will be great, but sides will be greatly increased. being that you are running test, it may be bearable.

    if you are going for strength gains, why dont you just go with 30mg of superdrol? it is a stronger compound than either of the two (though the vida data suggest epistane to be stronger than sd, this in reality just isn't the case)
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    as for the superdrol its a similar reason i am reluctant to take tren. i dont want to feel like **** or harm my body too much.
    already on this cycle i am having heartburn, loss of appetite and a perceived weakend immune system (sore throat, weak gym days etc)

    and its only been 4 weeks on test/masteron and 3 on anavar. so i have test/masteron left for 2 weeks and var runs out end of this week.
    i am thinking of just letting it go for now...
    i mean, my greed for strength says to take tren AND superdrol.haha. but i dont think that is really a good idea. another problem is that i have some kind of chronic fatigue and i was thinking that the steroid might give me an energy boost but actually they seem to make me more tired.
    the strength gains are decent but not extreme enough for me to extend what i am running now to be honest.
    its a question of results vs. sides and what i am willing to take. then again, the strength from tren or superdrol might make up for the sides.

    ok, blablabla... its not easy for me as i constantly question what i am doing. not to mention problem of getting hold of quality gear in germany...
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    what makes you think trenbolone is going to harm your body any more than dianabol? or masteron? or superdrol? or any other steroid out there-


    they are ALL toxic, yes, some more than others but your putting toxic substances into your body, when used appropriately and for the right period of time the body recovers. my body will recover fine, and as you know ive beat it to hell this cycle. But i have no doubt i will recover- and if i die(which i doubt highly i will) well i've lived a good one


    just do it

    or dont

    all steroids come with risks its about learning to mitigate these risks to the best of our ability
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    you have a point but for me the goal is not creating a certain physical shape, even if its at the cost of my wellbeing but to improve my gym experience because strangely over time working out has become the purpose of me working out. this means on one hand increasing strength, but also feeling good while it happens. there is no point for me if i get stronger but feel ill during the process or something because i actually want to enjoy my time in the gym, i dont care about gaining weight at all at this point.
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    i dont see why you would be having immune problems only 4 weeks in....


    im like 16 weeks deep into mine and i just now got sick, and got over it in like 3 days ( i havent gotten sick for 2 years- rarely do i get sick) steroids lower immune functioning yes, but not to a dangerous level....test should not make u feel like ass


    intriguing
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    oh and fyi superdrol made me feel 50x worse than tren I HATE SUPERDROL such a dirty dirty nasty feeling while on it i despise the compound and think there are much better options out there for those who use injectable/illicit aas
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    yeah i wouldnt touch the superdrol at this point.
    are the tren related problems mostly connected to the insomnia?
    when you get a good nights sleep, do you feel okay/normal (except sweating etc) or is there something "off"?

    i am just wondering as i am really curious about tren and its really the only compound i am interested in and the only reason i went for masteron/var is because i was too ***** for the tren...

    so i am debating wether to just go for it to see what its like and then say **** it or wether to cruise on low test first for 2 months or so and then go for tren before retiring to playing chess or something...haha

    somehow i have always been intrigued by tren, even when i was dead set on staying natural it was the one thing that i always thought i would have liked to experience once.
    if i do it i will do it high dose too, at least 100mg ed. the reasoning for this, as i said is me wanting to get the extreme experience.
    if i was interested in muscle only i would just run low dose test. i think getting big is much easier than getting really strong. ( and i mean strong as in, i want to dumbell row more than matt kroc, which is like 300lbs.)
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    I like superdrol.

    anyways, the side effects you have described are signs of serious disruption in your liver function. most likely it is due to running such a high dosage of anavar.

    var is shown in clinical dosages to increase liver values with just 10mg.

    the tiredness is lethargy also from the high dosage of var, and most likely masteron as well.

    I'd recomend to you dropping both the masteron and var, or at least the var. you should start feeling better a week or 2 after doing so.
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    i agree with jbryn get ur liver values checked and until then, drop the var
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    that makes sense but i doubt it. my organs are indestructable...i took isotretinoin for years without liver enzyme elevations...unfortunately this may have to do something with my chronic fatigue. and this leads to the next point. i wasnt saying i was feeling lethargic since doing the cycle but i am generally suffering from fatigue so i dont want something that makes it even worse. as far as i know loss of appetite and heartburn are normal from orals, especially var. i also get this from paracetamol (a single dose) so i expect it to be stomach related more than liver.
    however i will drop the var as its more or less finished anyways.
    the masteron is actually reported to be the number one steroid for energy well being. many people say they always feel ready to go on it.

    anyways, i will finish the last 12 days or so of test/masteron. then i have to see wether i want to go for the tren or what i will do. funny this thread has gone into a different subject almost. definitely not interested in epi anymore...lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by redman24 View Post
    that makes sense but i doubt it. my organs are indestructable...i took isotretinoin for years without liver enzyme elevations...unfortunately this may have to do something with my chronic fatigue. and this leads to the next point. i wasnt saying i was feeling lethargic since doing the cycle but i am generally suffering from fatigue so i dont want something that makes it even worse. as far as i know loss of appetite and heartburn are normal from orals, especially var. i also get this from paracetamol (a single dose) so i expect it to be stomach related more than liver.
    however i will drop the var as its more or less finished anyways.
    the masteron is actually reported to be the number one steroid for energy well being. many people say they always feel ready to go on it.

    anyways, i will finish the last 12 days or so of test/masteron. then i have to see wether i want to go for the tren or what i will do. funny this thread has gone into a different subject almost. definitely not interested in epi anymore...lol
    no ones organs are indestructable- period


    get your blood work done ASAP dude, seriously your playing with fire moreso than I AM- and thats saying something- i do not suffer fatigue nor any of the symptoms you described yet i have been on a heavy amount of AAS for going on 6 months

    heartburn from orals- never heard of this, appitite suppression with anavar? Never heard of this either- i've heard of it with anadrol, tren, and thats it really.
    i can almost promise you something, is not right, with your body.

    Cant hurt to check either way bro, it's safety
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    thanks dude and you may be right, but its only been twenty days on the var and the fatigue i was talking about is not something related to this cycle but something i have been dealing with for a year (without steroids)

    but i dropped the var and am just running test/masteron now and that should be fine.
    the indestructable comment was more of a joke, but i am sure everything will be fine.
    no other signs of liver damage and i feel hungry right now.
    anyways, if i ever run an oral again i will do bloodwork first and during.
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    i know the fatigue aint do to steroids- which is why i say go see a doc
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