Bread and Butter cycle.

[EddyRay]

Hey guys,
I don't intend on using injectables any time soon, but I'm currently doing my research and arming myself with the necessary knowledge to be able to do so. Maybe in a year's time when I'm a bit heavier through natty training. I know a really good dealer over here that is able to sell at decent prices (due to buying his merchandise in bulk).

I'm aware that everyone says to only run Test for a first cycle which is what I'll be doing for my first. This question isn't because I'm intending to run this proposed cycle as my first, it's more for the sake of bettering my knowledge.

Please give me your opinions on this cycle, it's one of the package deals that my known supplier sells at a discount rate.

Week 1-10 : 250 mg Test Enth /EW
Week 1-10 : 200 mg Deca /EW
Week 1-6 : 30 mg dianabol /ED

PCT:
Nolva
Week 13 40mg E/D
Week 14 40mg E/D
Week 15 30mg E/D
Week 16 20mg E/D

I realise these amounts are considered pretty mild by a lot of people's standards, but with perfect diet, strict training and excellent PCT protocol (test boosters, cortisol control) what total gains could one expect during cycle, how much will be kept and how long after will all the water weight and superficial mass be shedded?

Speculate all the way guys, this is for a bit of insight. I know it depends on a lot of variables but just give estimations and averages. I feel that a lot of other people will benefit from this information, not just me. :veryhappy:

 

[MikeGfilms]

Up to test to 500mg. Especially since your using Deca along with it.

If you have spot on diet, at 5'11 173lbs, expect about 20-30lbs i would say.

 

[EddyRay]

Up to test to 500mg. Especially since your using Deca along with it.

If you have spot on diet, at 5'11 173lbs, expect about 20-30lbs i would say.

Thanks for the input, man. I appreciate it. However, how much of that mass would be retainable?

 

[Hunter Killer]

You will always lose the water weight (who wants to keep that anyway)

Diet and training are key... almost goes without saying that's the most important thing.

 

[BarbellBeast]

Yup, diet is the most important thing. If you aren't eating enough, you won't grow.. Even with all the juicy...

So definitely bump that test dose to 500mg. You usually want your test dose double what your deca dose is buddy. I would also use Clomid over Nolva in pct, but that's my opinion.

 

[EddyRay]

You will always lose the water weight (who wants to keep that anyway)

Diet and training are key... almost goes without saying that's the most important thing.

Thank you for your response, but I'm completely aware that the water weight is lost.

I was just wondering how quickly after the cycle the water could be lost, how much of the total weight gained would be water, how much of the Actual muscle mass would be retainable with optimum precautions etc. I know those figures vary from person to person but I was hoping to get some estimates from you guys.

Thank you for taking the time to give me your input, I appreciate your opinions and insight. I know that I'm going to have to be extremely dilligent with nutrition and training, obviously no point in juicing until those are in check. That's another reason while I'm waiting until I feel that I've learned all there is to know about diet/training.

 

[EddyRay]

Yup, diet is the most important thing. If you aren't eating enough, you won't grow.. Even with all the juicy...

So definitely bump that test dose to 500mg. You usually want your test dose double what your deca dose is buddy. I would also use Clomid over Nolva in pct, but that's my opinion.

It's interesting you say so, bro. Exactly as you say, I've heard that doubling your Test to your Deca will prevent libido problems. Are there any other reasons as to why you'd recommend doing this though?

I also read somewhere (perhaps you've also heard) that consolidating a low test dosage with deca leads to less androgenic sides with almost the same gains that 500mg standalone Test. will give you. This is geared (no pun intended) more towards rookies, apparently.

Thanks for taking the time to give me your two cents. It's much appreciated man.

 

[BarbellBeast]

It's interesting you say so, bro. Exactly as you say, I've heard that doubling your Test to your Deca will prevent libido problems. Are there any other reasons as to why you'd recommend doing this though?

I also read somewhere (perhaps you've also heard) that consolidating a low test dosage with deca leads to less androgenic sides with almost the same gains that 500mg standalone Test. will give you. This is geared (no pun intended) more towards rookies, apparently.

Thanks for taking the time to give me your two cents. It's much appreciated man.

Yeah I say that cause doubling the test dose will help prevent deca sides. Like you said libido issues. No one wants Deca ****

 

[EddyRay]

Sorry for digging up a grave, but do you guys recommend HCG on this cycle while bumping up to 500mg test? I don't really care about my libido suffering and testicular atrophy for a couple of weeks during PCT, I'd be using it to keep more of my gains. It was my understanding that natural test production is crucial to this?

Would an OTC cut it? Such as AI Post Cycle Support, stacked with Fenugreek, Saw Palmetto, ZMA, Lean Xtreme and Formadrol? Obviously won't do as good of a job, but I'd rather avoid an even more rigorous injecting scheme than twice a week if possible.

 

[MikeGfilms]

Sorry for digging up a grave, but do you guys recommend HCG on this cycle while bumping up to 500mg test? I don't really care about my libido suffering and testicular atrophy for a couple of weeks during PCT, I'd be using it to keep more of my gains. It was my understanding that natural test production is crucial to this?

Would an OTC cut it? Such as AI Post Cycle Support, stacked with Fenugreek, Saw Palmetto, ZMA, Lean Xtreme and Formadrol? Obviously won't do as good of a job, but I'd rather avoid an even more rigorous injecting scheme than twice a week if possible.

A) The amount you will retain will depend on your diet and training.

B) I always recommend HCG if you have the access to use it. It will help with your recovery alot...which will help in retaining more of your gains.

C) Dont even think about OTC PCT...your using test, deca, and dbol...no way in hell man (even if test is used at 250mg). Stick with your SERM and add in the OTC products to help out even more.

 

[EddyRay]

A) The amount you will retain will depend on your diet and training.

B) I always recommend HCG if you have the access to use it. It will help with your recovery alot...which will help in retaining more of your gains.

C) Dont even think about OTC PCT...your using test, deca, and dbol...no way in hell man (even if test is used at 250mg). Stick with your SERM and add in the OTC products to help out even more.

Thanks for the insight, man. I was going to use Nolva as the base for PCT, I figured it wouldn't hurt to have some OTC supp's in conjunction with it to get myself up and running again. I'll try to get some HCG and use it while on cycle. Thank you very much, buddy.

 

[MikeGfilms]

Thanks for the insight, man. I was going to use Nolva as the base for PCT, I figured it wouldn't hurt to have some OTC supp's in conjunction with it to get myself up and running again. I'll try to get some HCG and use it while on cycle. Thank you very much, buddy.

Np man, you got a solid mass cycle so eat like a beast and get the most outta those gains. take care.

 

[Rodja]

Extend out the cycle to 14 weeks of test and 13 weeks of deca. The ester of deca is really long and it won't start to fully kick in until around week 5 or so. Your dosing is a little low as well; I'd go with 500mg test and 300-400mg of deca.

 

[EddyRay]

Extend out the cycle to 14 weeks of test and 13 weeks of deca. The ester of deca is really long and it won't start to fully kick in until around week 5 or so. Your dosing is a little low as well; I'd go with 500mg test and 300-400mg of deca.

Thanks for the insight, man. I'll keep this info in mind. Please be aware though, I haven't used steroids before and my receptors are likely to thrive on these amounts. I was already going to bump it up to 500mg Test anyway, but I might avoid bumping up Deca until the following cycle as from what I gather, it's important to progress slightly with every cycle.

I'd like to see what my gains are like with this short cycle and how I react to it before going even higher than 200 deca and 500 test. I think that makes sense.

I wouldn't actually mind going for 14 weeks, but I don't feel it's wise at this point as I don't know how I'll react to the gear, also I'd rather gain slightly less and be able to keep more of it after the cycle.

 

[Rodja]

Generally, a longer cycle will allow you maintain most of your ass because the muscle has more time to "mature." Even 300mg of deca is a pretty low dose, but is enough to elicit not only LBM gains, but also the joint relief.

 

[MakaveliThaDon]

Is nolva only really enough for PCT on a cycle like this?