Methylated AI?

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  1. On the issue with Epistane being used as part of a PCT regimen. I have ran Havoc numerous times and personally love it. I luckily have minimal side effects from it, although I have never done blood work. I would not personally use it as part of PCT, but the fact this it is a mild PH could give the perception that it is safe to use as part of PCT. I would like to see some actual facts though.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post
    the claim that epistane has anti estrogenic effects is made up.
    so, you figure that the thousands of page hits for 'epi epistane anti estrogen' are all made up?

    every supplement company that advertises these properties is a liar?

    plus, the personal experiences of experienced persons who have utilized epi successfully to this end in pct... i guess these guys are delusional too?
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by imjuschillin View Post
    See? I find this interesting. Cuz lately in my quest to learn about the compounds I've read way more than once that some peeps use low dose D-Bol, low dose Var and now even low dose Epi during PCT...?

    This makes me think (and maybe others?) that if these can be used during PCT then one could think that doing those alone, as a regular low dose cycle (say 8 weeks at 10mg) then no PCT would be required???...

    But then if you take it a step further one could ask why couldnt any compound be run at low doses for extended time period?

    For example, how and why would 12 weeks of 5mg Superdrol be worse than 4 weeks at 30mg? I ask because 4 weeks at 30 is ingesting 900mg, while 5mg at 12 weeks is only 450mg. And the later would allow more time for any gains to solidify.

    Thoughts?
    Low doses will not give you the same results that higher doses will. Therefor from a financial stand point you are just wasting your money. Running a low dose for a log period of time is certainly better then running high doses for longer time frames, however you are still risking your liver when you do something for longer then what is considered a normal run.

  4. I started this thread because methylated AI's aren't common.
    like i wrote before, check out ge pharma testrofire if you wanna see a monster of a product...suitable as a standalone only, i would guess. so, seeing as how it was so weird, i had to buy a bottle to play with, as a standalone, this summer...

    For example, how and why would 12 weeks of 5mg Superdrol be worse than 4 weeks at 30mg? I ask because 4 weeks at 30 is ingesting 900mg, while 5mg at 12 weeks is only 450mg. And the later would allow more time for any gains to solidify.
    check out unreal machine's superdrol thread... options like this are tossed around.
    except for the 4 weeks at 30.
    that seems excessive...
    and the 5mg seems too little.
    the thread recommends not going below 10...

  5. Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    like i wrote before, check out ge pharma testrofire if you wanna see a monster of a product...suitable as a standalone only, i would guess. so, seeing as how it was so weird, i had to buy a bottle to play with, as a standalone, this summer...


    You are tempting me to give Arimevol a stand alone run this summer too.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by CaponeCEO View Post
    You are tempting me to give Arimevol a stand alone run this summer too.
    why not?
    we should dual log it, something like 'double barrel 1 - twilight of the mutant pct...'
    nothin but action: zombie killin, summer fun.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    then explain the fact that it (under certain conditions) stimulates lh?

    the logic that you and others are employing is fallacious, as it invites judgments such as:

    Sugar is fattening.
    Cellulose is sugar.
    Therefore, cellulose is fattening.
    No, your statement is a fallacy, not mine. Anabolic steroids are suppressive. All of them. Your first proposition is what is false because "Sugar is fattening" is not true.

    Try again, try hard.

  8. sugar in low doses is not fattening...

    which is the reason for my using this example in the first place.

    reason by analogy.

    it is not a trick.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    sugar in low doses is not fattening...

    which is the reason for my using this example in the first place.

    reason by analogy.

    it is not a trick.
    I never said it was a trick. It's not called "reason by analogy", it's called arguing with a false clause. Your reason for using the example was to prove that argument can be flawed, and yes it can, however you first said my premise was incorrect, and yet your clause is (and premise, in fact).

    Epistane is suppressive, end of story.

    Here's a bloodwork example of someone starting PCT from an epistane cycle...:

    Day 0 (pct starts):

    LH: 1.54, 1.51, 1.60 (mIU/ml)
    FSH: 2.20, 2.37, 2.79 (mIU/ml)
    Test: 250, 256, 264 (ng/dl)

    Day 10 (ten days into pct):

    LH: 2.43, 1.94, 1.54
    FSH: 3.65, 3.27, 3.92
    Test: 402, 418, 435

    From 'dis thread righ' here

  10. look, man...

    i am tired of runnin around with you on this issue.
    clearly you are more interested in mischaracterizing the point of contention
    in order to win whatever it is you seem to think is the argument,
    than dealing with facts as presented.

    of course, a straight cycle of epistane is gonna shut you down.
    that is not the point of contention.

    sugar is fattening.
    if enough is consumed in a given time frame.
    that is not false.
    and should not be a point of contention.

    the point is that small, especially initial, doses of epi stimulate lh.
    and,
    if it clears the body or remains at levels low enough for (especially nightly) test production to take place,
    then daily small doses can ALL be considered initial.

    now, unless you have some blood work that shows this to be incorrect,
    i expect that we can simply walk away from this issue.
    if you don't wanna believe this,
    then fine.
    i frankly don't care what you think about it because it simply is not that important.
    if i thought that this information could save your life, or improve it in some way, then i would try harder to make sure that you understood.
    but, it won't make ANY difference to you or to anyone else if you ever take 5 mgs of epistane a day for a few weeks after a cycle of steroids.

    i figure enough said.
    with all due respect, and perhaps even some undue respect,
    out.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    look, man...
    Except the thread is about running it during PCT. Not just out of the blue.

  12. Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    so, you figure that the thousands of page hits for 'epi epistane anti estrogen' are all made up?

    every supplement company that advertises these properties is a liar?

    plus, the personal experiences of experienced persons who have utilized epi successfully to this end in pct... i guess these guys are delusional too?
    two words, "bro science".....

    those people are all mis informed d/t the "write ups" for epistane discussing it being an analog of a steroidial aromatase inhibitor used in japan for decades.

    it doesn't matter if you agree with me, because people who actually know something about steroids, will agree with me.

    I'm getting sick of newbies who dont know a steroid from their ass telling me about aas.

    you really need to research more, but I guess if you dont know the basics of androgenic/anabolic chemistry, then its easy to understand why you fall victim to bro science.

    go read a book. learn something.


    i'll say it again, epistane is not an aromatase inhibitor, nor is there any studies I know of showing it does.

    it is a methylated oral androgenic/anabolic steroid, and is a methylated dht derivative. maybe on of it's metabolites has some aromatase inhibition activity, but the steroid itself, does not.

    epistane is not an anti estrogenic compound.

    it is a highly anabolic/moderately androgenic compound.

    being that epistane(methepistanol) mg for mg is stronger than anavar (oxymetholone), and 10mg of anavar has been shown in numerous clinical studies on humans to cause hpta supression, saying 5mg of epistane e/d wont effect you is stupid, and shoes how little you know about steroids.

  13. i appreciate your concern.
    and, especially, the time you are ALL taking here to correct me...
    i know, you all have better things to do.
    and, i believe that you are taking your time to correct me out of a genuine concern,
    both for me and for the community at large.
    you are good people.
    i am grateful to have you on my side...
    this is all true.
    and i mean it.

    in the interest of absolute openness,
    i will confess that i am not an expert on steroid chemistry.
    i was a phd student in chemistry.
    i did do a fair amount of organic chemistry.
    biochemistry.
    clinical chemistry.
    and, i did run the pre-med program as an undergraduate,
    though took the acs chemistry degree instead.

    but, the information that i have taken on epistane comes mostly from anabolic minds.
    logs.
    the long pulse guide.
    some other stuff i read - especially company sites.
    other sites that would have shown up on web searches.
    tuned sports, for example - dunno if there is an epi post on there in particular, but it is one of the sites that i have read from a bit...
    some people callin epi 'landing gear' and usin it as a taper,
    crossing into pct proper with it.
    other doods runnin low doses straight up as part of pct.
    and, in clarification, i thought that i had read that it was an anti-estrogen with more serm-ish properties than a.i. properties...

    dunno how epi as an a.i. came up in the last post...

    finally,
    i should have you know that i live in korea,
    on an island,
    and am the only foreigner in my gym...
    no community here,
    no one to learn from.
    hell, no spotter.
    so, well, what i do learn i learn alone.
    as, what i do, i do alone.

    that said, i appreciate very much your attention.
    you -
    whether you like it or not! -
    are my lifting buddies...
    sorry about that.

    but, i am happy for it.
    especially for a set of doods honest and standup enough to tell me like it is,
    as they see it,
    without bull****e.


  14. Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    i appreciate your concern.
    and, especially, the time you are ALL taking here to correct me...
    i know, you all have better things to do.
    and, i believe that you are taking your time to correct me out of a genuine concern,
    both for me and for the community at large.
    you are good people.
    i am grateful to have you on my side...
    this is all true.
    and i mean it.

    in the interest of absolute openness,
    i will confess that i am not an expert on steroid chemistry.
    i was a phd student in chemistry.
    i did do a fair amount of organic chemistry.
    biochemistry.
    clinical chemistry.
    and, i did run the pre-med program as an undergraduate,
    though took the acs chemistry degree instead.

    but, the information that i have taken on epistane comes mostly from anabolic minds.
    logs.
    the long pulse guide.
    some other stuff i read - especially company sites.
    other sites that would have shown up on web searches.
    tuned sports, for example - dunno if there is an epi post on there in particular, but it is one of the sites that i have read from a bit...
    some people callin epi 'landing gear' and usin it as a taper,
    crossing into pct proper with it.
    other doods runnin low doses straight up as part of pct.
    and, in clarification, i thought that i had read that it was an anti-estrogen with more serm-ish properties than a.i. properties...

    dunno how epi as an a.i. came up in the last post...

    finally,
    i should have you know that i live in korea,
    on an island,
    and am the only foreigner in my gym...
    no community here,
    no one to learn from.
    hell, no spotter.
    so, well, what i do learn i learn alone.
    as, what i do, i do alone.

    that said, i appreciate very much your attention.
    you -
    whether you like it or not! -
    are my lifting buddies...
    sorry about that.

    but, i am happy for it.
    especially for a set of doods honest and standup enough to tell me like it is,
    as they see it,
    without bull****e.

    Everyone is here to learn. Some of us know way more then others. I myself have been corrected, and will be corrected again. But I can guarantee each time I learn something I do not forget it. That is the point of this site. You will start to learn which posters knows thier sh*t and which will try to bullsh*t you.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by BigBlackGuy View Post
    Except the thread is about running it during PCT. Not just out of the blue.
    No this is a threat about Arimevol, which from what I have found out is Epi with an AI. Running Epi as PCT is something I would never do or post about!

  16. Quote Originally Posted by CaponeCEO View Post
    No this is a threat about Arimevol, which from what I have found out is Epi with an AI. Running Epi as PCT is something I would never do or post about!
    I just assumed because of this:
    What would the point of this product be and is it supposed to be run as part of PCT (being methylated seems to defeat the purpose if so)? Also I do not plan on using it anytime soon.
    That the thread was about this product (which contains epi) being used in PCT or not.

    But no worries, we all know what's up, and that's simply not to do it

  17. Quote Originally Posted by BigBlackGuy View Post
    I just assumed because of this:

    That the thread was about this product (which contains epi) being used in PCT or not.

    But no worries, we all know what's up, and that's simply not to do it
    Aromatase Inhibitors are used mainly during PCT. This being a Methylated AI, which most are not, made me wonder if the company that produced it really intended people to use it during PCT. I know that it should be used as a stand alone run, followed by real PCT.

  18. Has anyone run both products? Both products being Epi and Epi with an AI included. If so I would love to hear your thoughts on the differences. I love Epi but have reserves about running Epi with an AI just because of my results from Epi alone.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by CaponeCEO View Post
    Aromatase Inhibitors are used mainly during PCT. This being a Methylated AI, which most are not, made me wonder if the company that produced it really intended people to use it during PCT. I know that it should be used as a stand alone run, followed by real PCT.
    Honestly, I think most AIs are used during cycle to mitigate raised estrogen from aromatising agents.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by BigBlackGuy View Post
    Honestly, I think most AIs are used during cycle to mitigate raised estrogen from aromatising agents.
    Yes you are correct. I just read up on them. So this product might not be that bad as stand alone, followed by real PCT. I may run and log it this summer.

  21. i am in on that CEO!
    and i will bring my own log to the table, on testrofire, another methylated monster 'pct' product!
    awesome thred man.
    thanks!

  22. Quote Originally Posted by CaponeCEO View Post
    Has anyone run both products? Both products being Epi and Epi with an AI included. If so I would love to hear your thoughts on the differences. I love Epi but have reserves about running Epi with an AI just because of my results from Epi alone.
    oh...
    and, isn't low estrogen a problem on epi cycles?
    i had some issues on a pulse, and i wasn't running an ai on off days, either...

    anyways, would seem to make an ai unnecessary, if not a potential problem, perhaps erasing too much estrogen and asking for not only enhanced on-cycle sides but enhanced estrogen rebound in pct...?

    actually, i would like to try epi with a dhea product underneath it, like a dermacrine or an m1d.
    these have ai's in them, but should contribute more substrate for the production of estrogen, and may offset the low estrogen problems associated with epi cycles - dry, painful joints being problem #1 for me...

  23. Quote Originally Posted by jin View Post
    so, you figure that the thousands of page hits for 'epi epistane anti estrogen' are all made up?
    I searched that and found that most (if not all) were talking about this:

    Studies show that small doses of the parent compound, Epitiostanol, at just 10-20mg/week showed a complete disappearance of the mass and pain in 25% of the male patients in the clinical trail, while the other 75% of the patients showed at least a 50% reduction in the mass and complete loss of pain in just 4-8 weeks.

    And I found this on Epitiostanol:

    Quote Originally Posted by 1973 JAPANESE JOURNAL OF CLINICAL ONCOLOGY

    1. The clinical effect of epitiostanol, a new anti-estrogen agent (2α,3α-epithio-5a-androstan-17β-ol) against gynecomastia was studied in comparison with dromostanolone propionate in fifty-four patients ranging from twenty to fifty years in age without previous history of hormone therapy and with normal liver function. The experiment was performed for eight weeks by double blind methods in three dosage groups, epithiostanol 10 mg, and 20 mg and dromostanolone propionate 50 mg.


    2. Epithiostanol 20 mg was most effective with regards to effect on mass size and tenderness, (effective in 96%, 20/21), followed by 10 mg epitiostanol (effective in 89%, 16/18) and dromostanolone propionate 50 mg (effective in 89%, 16/18) in descending order. No side effects were observed in any of the three groups.


    3. Based on the results of the present study, epitiostanol is concluded to be at least as effective as dromostanolone propionate against gynecomastia and to be safe from the viewpoint of side effects. A satisfactory therapeutical effect on gynecomastia can be expected with a weekly dosage of 20 mg of epitiostanol for an administration period of between five to eight weeks.
    Epitiostanol =/= Epistane


    Now if you find something worthwhile, i.e. papers, user results with bloodwork,

    I'd really like to see it.

  24. yeah, i remember this paper getting referenced i suppose...
    really, beyond the 'hype' generated from this,
    i really just have the reports i took from users
    found here, i suppose, quite a bit as a.m. is a pretty huge warehouse of info,
    and from dr. d's thread, i suppose,
    as this 'property' of epi is supposed to be one of its big pulse selling points...
    besides that, my own experience -
    on 30 mg epi/day, taken in the morning, i felt like a little shriveled girl the next morning.
    on 20, i awoke with raging wood fires every morning (well, as raging a fire as this splinter of a rail can generate...).
    i took this as (personal) confirmation of the - if not lh encouraging - NON-suppressive properties of the ds in low enough/appropriately spaced/timed doses...
    figure this, with a half-life of say 7 hours, when dosed at 9a.m., then, by bedtime at midnite, there's about 5mg of active left in circulation,
    an amount which - from personal experience- does not seem to f with my nuts.
    just my experience.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by AndrewNico View Post
    I searched that and found that most (if not all) were talking about this:




    And I found this on Epitiostanol:



    Epitiostanol =/= Epistane


    Now if you find something worthwhile, i.e. papers, user results with bloodwork,

    I'd really like to see it.
    Methyl Epitiostanol = Epistane
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