M1,4diol / 1,4andro stack

[Nullifidian]

I'm trying to figure out a good bulking stack involving M1,4. Everyone seems to stack stuff with 4AD, but seeing as how M1,4 converts at the 3 beta enzyme, 4AD would compete for receptors so it seems like a poor choice. Plus, M1,4 is already a great mass builder I would think something more along the lines of lean gains would be a good idea to stack with it. So that's why I'm contemplating 1,4andro.

The idea is, both would convert at different enzymes, and convert to different target hormones. M1,4 turns to Dbol which would be great for mass gains, largely due to estrogenic action, and 1,4andro would convert to boldenone which would be great for a little lean gain, increased red blood cell count and thus more endurance and better vascularity. Plus boldenone increases appetite which is great for bulking.

Timewise, this would be for late next year. I want to get the dosages down so I can order now in preparation for the ban. So far I've got a 2 bulking cycles planned for the coming fall and winter, and a cutting stack for next spring. I'd like to nail down what to get for fall/winter of 2005 because I'm pretty certain that soon the stuff will no longer be available.

I'm thinking 900mg of 1,4andro would be around right. Not sure on the M1,4 though at all. I read through a huge thread that seemed to suggest starting at like 20mg and ramping up to 40mg, but more recent threads seem to suggest much much higher dosages (like 100mg). So I really don't know at this point.

Feedback much appreciated. Criticism even more appreciated.

 

[Nullifidian]

Ok update on the current plan.

The projected conversion rate I read from sledge seems to be 50% for M1,4diol. He recommended in that thread a starting dosage of about 60mg.

So this is the current plan:

Week 1-2: 60mg M1,4diol/900mg 1,4andro
Week 3: 80mg M1,4diol/900mg 1,4andro
Week 4: 80mg (100 if low to no side effects on 80mg)/900mg 1,4andro
Week 5: 600mg 1,4andro/ZMA + Tribulus

During this whole time, I'll have Nolva onhand in case signs of gyno start appearing.

PCT:
Week 1-2: Nolva 60mg (which equates to 40mg Nolva because it's 60mg tamox citrate) + ZMA nightly + Tribulus daily
Week 3-4: Nolva 40mg + ZMA nightly +Tribulus daily
Week 5: ZMA + Tribulus
Week 6+: just ZMA


Yes I know this will be pretty expensive. Amount required for cycle is:

212 tabs of M1,4diol (198 if 80mg is used in week 4 instead)
294 caps 1,4andro

That's 5 bottles of 1,4andro and 3 of M1,4diol
Add to that 3 bottles of Nolva (always have 1 more than you need of Nolva IMO) and the total cost comes to...
$340

Not counting the Trib and the ZMA.


Nonetheless I think it might turn out really well. Please add your comments to this. Suggestions of all kinds welcome; adjusted dosages, compound changes, timing, etc.

 

[Bennett]

I think 4ad and m14ad wprks well together I'm 15 days into a cycle of 300mg 1-test,600mg 4ad transdermal and 120mg m14ad.Starting weight 231,current weight 243.I love this stack I've still got a couple of weeks left and I beleive I'll hit 250.I'm sure a lot of it is water,but I feel like superman.

 

[Nullifidian]

So you say you've had a lot of success from 4AD with M1,4diol? Do you know whether or not the gains from 4AD are being realised or if the M1,4 is competing for enzymes too much? I suppose the only way of knowing is by analyzing secondary effects. D-bol-like effects means the M1,4 is working and testosterone-like effect means the 4AD is working.

As for dosages, of course it's all weight dependant.

I'm currently around 175-180 (depending on water) at around 12% bodyfat (might be a little lower). This would be for a bulking stack next fall (not this fall). I'll be doing 2 seperate bulking stacks before then, 1 in the fall and 1 in the winter. One cutting stack in the spring that will involve TriMax and clen to eliminate bodyfat. Seeing as how from last year to now I've lost almost 30 pounds of fat and gained around 15 pounds of muscle naturally, it's tough to judge what weight I'll be at when I do this particular stack. I seem to gain muscle very easily. Best guess is I'll be at maybe 200-210 next year at around 12% bodyfat. Hopefully my bodyfat will be around 8% by September of next year so I'm guessing weight will be 192-202.

So let's assume I weigh 200 pounds when I do this stack, do my dosages look alright for the M1,4diol?

Also, what do you think of the usage of 1,4andro in this stack? Price isn't really an issue for me for this.

 

[Bennett]

I think you would get a lot better gains with a 1-test dermal than with 1,4ad.80 mg m14ad and 3-500 mg 1-test transdermal would make a kick ass stack.

 

[MrStick]

That is a lot of money to spend on prohormones man. The 1,4 andro I feel should be taken out completely.

 

[dickwootton]

That is a lot of money to spend on prohormones man. The 1,4 andro I feel should be taken out completely.

I have spent like 800 bucks on PH's...thats saving up for after then ban
dick

 

[Nullifidian]

What exactly is wrong with the 1,4andro?


Basically it gives the effect of a low dose of EQ. Increased vascularity, increased appetite, good gains, no estrogen except from dione conversion and extremely low androgenic sides.

The way I look at this, it's like a D-bol/EQ cycle.

Has anyone had any experience with or know someone with experience with 1,4andro who would like to comment on any particular negative aspect of it's use?

As for the 1-Test, that sounds pretty decent come to think of it. I think I'll definitely take that into consideration as an alternative. The only problems I suppose are androgenic side effects and the fact that I've never used a transdermal before. With respect to the transdermal 1-Test here are a few questions:

1) What brand are you using and do you recommend?
2) When should it be applied and to what bodypart?
3) Is there an odor?
4) Does it absorb well or does it clump up (for example, Lipoderm Ulta clumps quite a bit and have of it tends to be wasted)?

I've never used a transdermal before. I'm definitely not up for mixing my own so it would have to be all set and ready to apply.


As for injectables, that's out of the question.

 

[Nullifidian]

The more I think about it, the more I think you're right about 1,4andro not really getting enough gains to support the M1,4 sufficiently. I also think the 1-Test transdermal would work far better as you also recommend.

I don't think I'll use any 4AD though because of the enzyme competition.

I also don't think I should get rid of the 1,4andor in it's entirety either.


Instead, I'll change up the dosing and add 1-Test transdermal. Here's the new plan:

Week 1: 60mg M1,4diol/300mg 1-Test transdermal
Week 2: 80mg M1,4diol/400mg 1-Test transdermal/300mg 1,4andro
Week 3: 100mg M1,4diol/500mg 1-Test transdermal/600mg 1,4andro
Week 4: 80mg M1,4diol/400mg 1-Test transdermal/900mg 1,4andro
Week 5: 600mg 1,4andro/ZMA + Tribulus

The massive gains from M1,4, the large lean gains of 1-Test, and the vascularity and increased appetite of 1,4andro.

For the M1,4 I'll get Designer, for the 1-Test it looks like Dermabolics Big One is what I'll get, and for the 1,4andro I'll probably go with Boldione from Molecular nutrition.

 

[cookmic5]

Week 1: 60mg M1,4diol/300mg 1-Test transdermal
Week 2: 80mg M1,4diol/400mg 1-Test transdermal/300mg 1,4andro
Week 3: 100mg M1,4diol/500mg 1-Test transdermal/600mg 1,4andro
Week 4: 80mg M1,4diol/400mg 1-Test transdermal/900mg 1,4andro
Week 5: 600mg 1,4andro/ZMA + Tribulus

I think the general consensus is that 1,4andro is best run for 6 weeks to see full results, so stretching it out for a week or two more at 900mg maybe a good idea. And I don't understand why you would want/need to tapper it down on the androgens prior to going off of each.

cm5

 

[Nullifidian]

Thanks for the info.

So are you saying I shouldn't taper down the androgens or are you saying I shouldn't taper down the 1,4andro? I was under the impression that dropping androgens while they are at high dosages can lead to very harsh withdrawal. Hence I tapered the M1,4 and the 1-Test a little in week 4. Of course I could be wrong. As for 1,4andro, I only tapered it down slightly because Week 5 was mostly a lead-in to PCT. However I think I see your meaning here that without running it for 6 weeks it isn't doing enough good. I guess because it's slow acting it should also probably be run sooner; starting at the beginning of the whole cycle instead of just at week 2. Plus since 1,4andro isn't all that suppressive of natural test to my knowledge I suppose withdrawal is low as well so in that respect there is no need to taper.

Androgens at the same dosage as before, here are the new numbers for the 1,4andro:

week1: 300mg
week2-3: 600mg
week4-6: 900mg

Should I start Clomid (or Nolva) in week 6 or should I just wait until I'm off everything before I go for the powerful test booster/estrogen blocker? I'm definitely going to be using the ZMA + Tribulus in weeks 5 and 6. Note: HCG is unavailable. Perhaps Clomid starting in week 6? I don't think that should interfere too much with the 1,4andro.

 

[cookmic5]

Any advice I have ever read has said hold off on the nolva/clomid till post cycle, with the exception of nolva for gyno.

As far as the tappering goes, the way it was explained to me is that your test is like a light dimmer once it's set to low (and it is never totally off, I don't want to catch Bobo's wrath here) it doesn't come back without some help/time. So tapering down off the androgens won't help anything, what's done is done, the natural test has been "shut down", easing down on the androgens won't bring it back any faster. And I would imagine that lowering would just result in noticing, via side effects, more of the hormone imbalance that you have created by using androgens.

cm5

 

[Nullifidian]

once again, the numbers must be tweaked:

Week 1: 60mg M1,4diol/300mg 1-Test transdermal/300mg 1,4andro
Week 2: 80mg M1,4diol/400mg 1-Test transdermal/600mg 1,4andro
Week 3-4: 100mg M1,4diol/500mg 1-Test transdermal/900mg 1,4andro
Week 5-6: 900mg 1,4andro/ZMA/Tribulus

Week 7-8: 60mg Nolva/ZMA/Tribulus/Milk Thistle/R-ALA
Week 9-10: 40mg Nolva/ZMA/Tribulus/Milk Thistle/R-ALA
Week 11-12: 20mg Nolva/ZMA/Tribulus/Milk Thistle/R-ALA


The end result should be pretty friggin massive gains along with increased vascularity. I think training-wise, I'll definitely include more compound sets and dropsets in weeks 5 and 6. The entire time I will definitely be taking Creatine and some Arginine (enhances insulin production making the Creatine absorbtion more thorough, as well as increases vascularity very slightly via NO pathway).

 

[Nullifidian]

Alright it's all set, products ordered.

I was originally planning on doing a 4AD/1AD 4 week cycle in September and then a M1T/4AD cycle in November: 4 weeks on, 4 weeks PCT, 4 weeks on 4 weeks PCT; a staggered 8 weeker so to speak. I've changed that plan for several reasons.

Instead I'll be doing this M1,4diol/1-Test Transdermal/1,4andro cycle starting in September and the 1AD/4AD cycle in January. I'll do the M1t/4AD cycle in fall of 2005.

reasons:

1) I already know M1t/4AD works from a million and one cycle logs here on the board. It seems to be the number one standard bulking stack for good gains. However I don't know how well this stack works and I'd like to find out sooner so I can determine if it's worthwhile to do it again. So I need do it sooner so I have time to purchase another batch before the ban hits.

2) I'm not entirely sure how long premixed transdermals keep for. However I know standard M1T and 4AD caps last quite a long time. So they can sit in storage no problem.


It's good news for all you folks. I'll go to the doc and have my bloodwork done before the cycle starts and after the cycle is over so you can see a difference. I'll also weigh myself every morning as well as do caliper bodyfat tests once a week in the morning. Of course I'll also report on how I'm feeling, as well as any noticeable increases in vascularity, etc. I'll also do before and after photos. Key bodyparts where vascularity tends to increase easiest I'll do close-ups of.