Joint pain with tren/test cyp?
- 06-14-2004, 08:06 PM
- 06-14-2004, 08:27 PM
Are you using an anti-e?
- 06-14-2004, 08:29 PM
yes, Letro, very low dose every other day (1mg)
06-14-2004, 09:59 PM
anyone else have input?
06-15-2004, 11:45 AM
M1T did it to my left knee, although strangely 500mg test cyp/wk is not hurting any of my joints. I found that ibuprofen, wearing a neoprene brace to keep it warm, and icing the crap out of it seemed to allow me to function. Still hurt, but became bearable anyways. In my case I found if I used higher reps and lighter weight it didn't hurt as much and I could still work my legs. From what I understand joint pain isn't uncommon while 'on.' The good news is that it goes away fairly quickly after discontinuing use.
Good luck with the elbows.
06-15-2004, 01:06 PM
I think size was asking that for a reason. Letro is really too strong for what your running and you could just be dried out. fina is alright for the joints but the test is bad. here was some very good advice given to me by Puddles at SM in responce to my elbow http://www.superiormuscle.com/vbulle...threadid=15556 :Originally Posted by FrTimothyI did something similar over a year ago and still had problems even after taking a couple months off from training this winter. It had gotten to the point where just moving the sheet over me at night with that arm was quite painful.
Deep tissue massage is somewhat helpful when the pain is at it's worst. Anti-inflamatories helped some too but only minimally and they interfere with muscle development. Active Release therapy was suggested by some peoplel but I can't find anyone in the area who does it. http://www.activerelease.com/
Regarding cycles, Prop significantly aggrivated the situation for me. Anavar however seems to have nearly eliminated the problem (I'm still on so I don't know if the relief is temproary or not). I was also considering EQ but the var has done well on it's own. GH would have probably been better but I've already skirted around cancer and can't use GH. I've also been going lighter but doing more reps for most upper body work.
Here's an interesting read...this is what lead me to choose Var or EQ:
originally posted by AnimalMass on competitivemuscle.com
While injecting test increases protein syntesis by roughly 50 times, depending on dose and time, most bodybuilders forget that it will reduce collagen synthesis by more than 50% -- more like 80%, giving you the collagen synthesis rate of a senior citizen. Since collagen makes up tendons, bros are very prone to injury if they continue to lift very heavy, unless they cycle off T and let their collagen synthesis get back to normal. It's like having the skeletal muscle of a gorilla with the tendons of a very old man.
Winstrol increases collagen synthesis. It will give you bigger tendons. However, your body compensates for this by making them more brittle, weaker, and more prone to injury. I can't tell you how many bros work out anaerobically and become injured while on winstrol. Guys who lift in the 1-5 rep range while on winstrol, to baseball players who sprint all out from a stationary position -- winstrol should be the LAST drug they choose. Most of them like winstrol because they don't get the weight gain from it but it is very detrimental to bros who train for any sport anaerobically. Tendons tear easily on it.
Also, the drugs I mention increase collagen syn while also increasing collagen cross-linking integrity, making for a much stronger tendon.
Winstrol, on the other hand, will dramatically increase collagen syn, but ironically it decreases collagen cross-linking integrity, thus making a much weaker tendon.
You can plan a cycle of AAS which will increase collagen synthesis and skeletal muscle growth at the same time. The key is the drug(s) you choose.
Deca, Equipoise, Anavar, and Primobolan will ALL increase skeletal muscle while at the same time dramatically increase collagen syn and bone mass and density, leaving you with a substantially reduced chance of becoming injured than if you choose to use AAS like sus, cyp, or enth.
While testosterone will increase bone mass and density, even at supra-physiological levels, the result is weaker tendons due to inhibition of collagen syn.
To plan a cycle where the goal is to increase skeletal muscle mass/strength while at the same time increase joint/tendon/ligament strength, enough to keep up with the dramatic increase in skeletal muscle, you must choose drugs like Eq, Deca, Anavar, or Primo as the base of your cycle.
Testosterone and its esters can be added to your cycle to keep levels within a 'normal' physiological range (ie, 100-200 mg/wk) but must not go above this. Since drugs like eq, deca, anavar and primo will reduce endogenous, natural levels of test, these levels may be maintained with exogenous test in the 100-200 mg/wk range. Test at this dose will not inhibit collagen syn, but paradoxically, will help increase it. It is when exogenous testosterone is used > 200 mg/wk that collagen syn is inhibited.
Deca @ 3 mg/kg a week(about 270 mg/wk for a 200 lb male) will increase procollagen III levels by 270% by week 2. Procollagen III is a primary indicator used to determine the rate of collagen syn. As you can see, deca is a very good drug at giving you everything you want -- an increase in collagen syn, an increase in skeletal muscle, and increases in bone mass and density. The one thing it does not give you is wood
Primobolan, @ 5 mg/kg, will increase collagen synthesis by roughly 180% -- less than deca and equipoise but still substantial.
Equipoise @ 3 mg/kg will increase procollagen III by approximately 340% -- slightly better than deca.
Oxandrolone has over a hundred studies documenting its effectiveness at treating patients needing rapid increases in collagen syn to enhance healing.
These drugs have longer half-lives than most other AAS, so this should be considered when timing your post cycle clomid use. Here they are:
Deca: 15 days Equipoise: 14 days Primobolan: 10.5 days
Anavar has a half-life of only 8 hours so it should not pose a problem.
GH is probably the most remarkable drug at increasing collagen synthesis. It increases collagen syn in a dose dependant manner -- the more you use, the more you will increase collagen syn. It has also demonstrated this ability in short and long term studies. From what I've read, hGH at 6 iu/day increased the collagen deposition rate by around 250% in damaged collagen structures. This result indicates that the increased biomechanical strength of wounds to collagen structures treated with biosynthetic human growth hormone was produced by an increased deposition of collagen in the collagen structures.
Eq, primo, anavar, and deca are all good -- they increase several biomakers of collagen syn -- ie, type III, II, I, procollagen markers. GH just seems to do so most dramatically.
Use of any of these drugs @ supra-physiological levels with a maintenance dose of test will increase collagen syn while at the same time increase skeletal muscle mass. Skeletal muscle mass gains will not be as dramatic as with large testosterone doses but you have to weigh the risk/reward basis for yourself. Also, these drugs do not satisfy the libido like testosterone, but that is not the point of this thread. It is only to demonstrate that you can increase skeletal muscle and collagen syn at the same time with certain AAS -- the decision is up to you.
06-15-2004, 01:18 PM
thanks a million
It seems like no matter how much I read there's still sooooo much to learn. Thanks a million Skye...
06-15-2004, 02:04 PM
your welcome, and boy do I know that feeling. this was an eye opener for me when she gave it.Originally Posted by FrTimothy
06-15-2004, 02:12 PM
We can always learn more. I find new info all the time.Originally Posted by FrTimothy
Anti-e's can often cause a "drying" effect as Skye mentioned which leads to joint pain or discomfort. Not sure if this is the cause of your pain but it is a possibility.
06-15-2004, 10:14 PM
Excellent post Skye! Thanks for sharing that info with us all.
06-15-2004, 10:48 PM
i have seen videos of two olympic lifters dislocating joints during the snatch, and the jerk. since they were both bulgarians, i also have little doubt it was at least partially related to AAS use.
06-21-2004, 11:54 AM
Man I just started Test an EQ and my pain is in my shoulders and shoots through my arm all the way to my wrist so be glad it’s your elbows. I have not yet found a way to counter this problem but I am tiring different things I will let you know if I find something good.Originally Posted by FrTimothy
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