Is my pct overkill?

[Lightweight1]

Ok guys im just finishing up with my tren epi cycle. I gained no weight on this cycle and only a little strength increase. Maybe i got some bad stuff (used the Raw 1 stack) or maybe im a poor responder to it. Im guessing the first one. I had no side effects while on and the boys only went down a little. I plan on doing a epi/beast bridge next time around and know ill have legit stuff at least.

For PCT i have planned:

clomid 50mgs weeks 1-4 (since it is better for progesterone products)
HCGenerate weeks 1- 4
Stoked weeks 3-6
DS lean extreme week 2
supporting supps : multi-v, creatine etc..

My question is, is this overkill since i gained nothing from this cycle? Should i cut it down and save some for me next cycle in a few months? What do you guys think?

 

[JCunningham]

Drop the lean extreme.

Keep everything else the same.

 

[MikeGfilms]

i hate when people say a pct is "overkill"

to me, nothing is overkill during pct (except insane dosages of something like 1g clomid lol) when people stack SERMs or other OTC stuff, it will only help out, get you to recover faster, and possibly giver you higher test levels then you had before the cycle.

 

[Lightweight1]

i hate when people say a pct is "overkill"

to me, nothing is overkill during pct (except insane dosages of something like 1g clomid lol) when people stack SERMs or other OTC stuff, it will only help out, get you to recover faster, and possibly giver you higher test levels then you had before the cycle.

Ok well I won't say overkill then how about excessive lol. Ok yeah I wasn't sure about the cortisol blocker maybe ill just save it. On the HCGenerate do you take 5 at once or spread out ?

 

[MikeGfilms]

Id use the cortisol blocker about day 10 of the PCT. And id dose the HCGenerate in the morning and before bed.

 

[Rodja]

Actually, drop the HCGenreate and here's why:
Lowering SHBG increases free test, but it also increases estradiol (E2). The last thing you want to do is to take anything that both lowers the amount of total test in the bloodstream, which is what happens as a result of increasing free test, and also concurrently increases E2.

 

[MikeGfilms]

Actually, drop the HCGenreate and here's why:
Lowering SHBG increases free test, but it also increases estradiol (E2). The last thing you want to do is to take anything that both lowers the amount of total test in the bloodstream, which is what happens as a result of increasing free test, and also concurrently increases E2.

hmm thats actually really good info i overlooked.

 

[Rodja]

hmm thats actually really good info i overlooked.

You're far from the only one.

 

[MikeGfilms]

In turn tho, wouldnt more free test benefit you more than lower free test and higher total test? considering it the free test is the test actually used?

 

[Rodja]

In turn tho, wouldnt more free test benefit you more than lower free test and higher total test? considering it the free test is the test actually used?

No, you're prolonging your recovery by doing so. Essentially, once you come off of the supplements, you'll almost be going through another PCT since your total test is even lower now and you're no longer lowering the SHBG.

Basically, wait a month before starting those supplements and take some TCF-1 to kickstart the test production at the beginning of PCT.

 

[MikeGfilms]

Pretty cool, thanks.

for pct i usually do

Clomid (100/75/50/25)
Maybe an AI if theres any problem with gyno

 

[Lightweight1]

Actually, drop the HCGenreate and here's why:
Lowering SHBG increases free test, but it also increases estradiol (E2). The last thing you want to do is to take anything that both lowers the amount of total test in the bloodstream, which is what happens as a result of increasing free test, and also concurrently increases E2.

Hmm so what do you use the HCGenerate for ? If it not used in pct ?

 

[Rodja]

Hmm so what do you use the HCGenerate for ? If it not used in pct ?

Post-PCT.

 

[Rodja]

Pretty cool, thanks.

for pct i usually do

Clomid (100/75/50/25)
Maybe an AI if theres any problem with gyno

I hope you haven't been through many PCTs at your age...

 

[Lightweight1]

Post-PCT.

Ok so start HCGENERATE in week 4? Why does everyone else suggest starting it in week 1 of pct

 

[Rodja]

Ok so start HCGENERATE in week 4? Why does everyone else suggest starting it in week 1 of pct

Because they only read product write-ups and have never had any dealing with biochem and endocrinology.

 

[DAdams91982]

Because they only read product write-ups and have never had any dealing with biochem and endocrinology.

This x2.

 

[Lightweight1]

Because they only read product write-ups and have never had any dealing with biochem and endocrinology.

Cool man thanks for the good info. So how long after pct should I run the HCGenerate for.?

 

[Rodja]

Cool man thanks for the good info. So how long after pct should I run the HCGenerate for.?

You can run it immediately after PCT, but just not during PCT.

 

[UnrealMachine]

No, you're prolonging your recovery by doing so. Essentially, once you come off of the supplements, you'll almost be going through another PCT since your total test is even lower now and you're no longer lowering the SHBG.

Basically, wait a month before starting those supplements and take some TCF-1 to kickstart the test production at the beginning of PCT.

How does HCGenerate lower total test? Before/after bloodwork from HCGenerate has demonstrated an increase in free test as well as total test...

 

[Rodja]

How does HCGenerate lower total test? Before/after bloodwork from HCGenerate has demonstrated an increase in free test as well as total test...

This is beating a dead horse at this point. Lowering SHBG increases free test (and E2, but very few people seem to realize this), but, as a result, the total test will be lowered to keep the body closer to homeostasis.

 

[jbryand101b]

Actually, drop the HCGenreate and here's why:
Lowering SHBG increases free test, but it also increases estradiol (E2). The last thing you want to do is to take anything that both lowers the amount of total test in the bloodstream, which is what happens as a result of increasing free test, and also concurrently increases E2.

again with this, I thought we already came to the conclusion you have no data based evidence that any of the ingredients in the product will do this. (just like I have no data based evidence showing hcgenerat to restore hormone levels after a cycle of anabolic/androgenic steroids in supraphysiological dosages.)

quit talking out your arse and leave it alone.

your opinion is appreciated, but that is all it is, an opinion.

consumers who have tried this product love it, and know how well it works. those who havn't, can only speculate, and talk smack because its such a great product.

love it or hate it, those who actually use it, know whats up.

 

[UnrealMachine]

This is beating a dead horse at this point. Lowering SHBG increases free test (and E2, but very few people seem to realize this), but, as a result, the total test will be lowered to keep the body closer to homeostasis.

but if HCGenerate has components that increase natural test *and* lower SHBG then you should be able to increase free test as well as total test, as bloodwork has demonstrated...

 

[Rodja]

again with this, I thought we already came to the conclusion you have no data based evidence that any of the ingredients in the product will do this.

quit talking out your arse and leave it alone.

your opinion is appreciated, but that is all it is, an opinion.

As I already said, this is assuming the product works as advertised. Seriously, read up on some endocrinology before you start spewing out junk. What I am arguing is basic MOA of sex-hormones, which, allegedly, your product will alter and not if your product works.

The MOA of SHBG:
"Sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) is a glycoprotein that binds to sex hormones, specifically testosterone and estradiol. Testosterone and estradiol circulate in the bloodstream, bound mostly to SHBG and to some degree bound to serum albumin. Only a small fraction is unbound, or "free," and thus biologically active and able to enter a cell and activate its receptor. The SHBG inhibits the function of these hormones. Thus bioavailability of sex hormones is influenced by the level of SHBG."

Now, what this is saying is that SHBG binds to not only testosterone, but also E2. Therefore, lowering SHBG has a huge dichotomy: it increases the availability of testosterone (good), but also increase E2 (very bad).

 

[Rodja]

but if HCGenerate has components that increase natural test *and* lower SHBG then you should be able to increase free test as well as total test, as bloodwork has demonstrated...

Post said bloodwork while undergoing HPTA recovery.

 

[JCunningham]

Rodja, whether the man uses HCGenerate or NOT, E2 will rise either way without the use of an AI.. I know you must know this correct? Especially with SERM use...

Op, get a mild otc AI and then you can run HCGenerate with out the "fear" of suppressing yourself further, by using a PCT support supplement..

 

[Rodja]

Rodja, whether the man uses HCGenerate or NOT, E2 will rise either way without the use of an AI.. I know you must know this correct? Especially with SERM use...

Op, get a mild otc AI and then you can run HCGenerate with out the "fear" of suppressing yourself further, by using a PCT support supplement..

Yes, I am aware of this, which is why it makes even less sense to increase it even further.

 

[JCunningham]

Yes, I am aware of this, which is why it makes even less sense to increase it even further.

Hence why op should opt for an AI as well in his PCT.

And we both know heightened free test = better than heightened total test .

 

[UnrealMachine]

Post said bloodwork while undergoing HPTA recovery.

andew732 posted that his bloodwork after 3 weeks "LH output increased over 125%, free test increased over 300%, total test rose 200ng's, cortisol lowered by 30%, DHEA UP by 87%" although I don't know if this was post-cycle or not.

Regardless, it is a supplement that does more than lower SHBG; it raises natural test... so higher free test and total test is expected, and then with lower SHBG, even more free test is expected.

Also it should be noted that clomid and nolva increase SHBG so a component which lowers it is beneficial in PCT if only to counteract the SERM

 

[jbryand101b]

o.p., no your pct is not over kill. looks solid to me, and I think you will be very happy with it when/if you run it.

hcgenerate as part of a comprehensive pct program, and bridge to use post, post cycle in between cycle.

good stuff, and does not disapoint.

 

[needtogetmuscle]

Drop the lean extreme.

Keep everything else the same.

Yes I am not a big fan of any kind of fat burning during pct.:burger:

 

[needtogetmuscle]

Ok well I won't say overkill then how about excessive lol. Ok yeah I wasn't sure about the cortisol blocker maybe ill just save it. On the HCGenerate do you take 5 at once or spread out ?

worsk best 3 am 2 pm bro.

 

[needtogetmuscle]

Actually, drop the HCGenreate and here's why:
Lowering SHBG increases free test, but it also increases estradiol (E2). The last thing you want to do is to take anything that both lowers the amount of total test in the bloodstream, which is what happens as a result of increasing free test, and also concurrently increases E2.

1. Please explain how this is going to lower over all test?
2. anyone with half a brain knows that serm level estrogen will go up (not down) when using nolvadex or clomid. So by your same thinking you are telling him not to use ether of them too right?

This is why you should also use a light ai during pct and the reason forma-stanzol and would be a way better choice over clomid or nolva. Because it works as both a serm and a ai. Add in the hcgenerate and it only gets better.

 

[needtogetmuscle]

No, you're prolonging your recovery by doing so. Essentially, once you come off of the supplements, you'll almost be going through another PCT since your total test is even lower now and you're no longer lowering the SHBG.

Basically, wait a month before starting those supplements and take some TCF-1 to kickstart the test production at the beginning of PCT.

holy hell what the crap is this junk lmao...

 

[needtogetmuscle]

How does HCGenerate lower total test? Before/after bloodwork from HCGenerate has demonstrated an increase in free test as well as total test...

No %hit... And every thing they have said from start to finish makes no since at all. JUST NON SENSE :twak:

 

[needtogetmuscle]

This is beating a dead horse at this point. Lowering SHBG increases free test (and E2, but very few people seem to realize this), but, as a result, the total test will be lowered to keep the body closer to homeostasis.

AND WHEN YOU ARE ON A SERM YOUR ESTROGEN ALSO GOES UP. YOUR THINKING IS SO OFF ITS JUST SILLY

 

[needtogetmuscle]

As I already said, this is assuming the product works as advertised. Seriously, read up on some endocrinology before you start spewing out junk. What I am arguing is basic MOA of sex-hormones, which, allegedly, your product will alter and not if your product works.

The MOA of SHBG:
"Sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) is a glycoprotein that binds to sex hormones, specifically testosterone and estradiol. Testosterone and estradiol circulate in the bloodstream, bound mostly to SHBG and to some degree bound to serum albumin. Only a small fraction is unbound, or "free," and thus biologically active and able to enter a cell and activate its receptor. The SHBG inhibits the function of these hormones. Thus bioavailability of sex hormones is influenced by the level of SHBG."

Now, what this is saying is that SHBG binds to not only testosterone, but also E2. Therefore, lowering SHBG has a huge dichotomy: it increases the availability of testosterone (good), but also increase E2 (very bad).

MAN HOW ABOUT YOU DO THE SAME BRO!!!!

By your same ill informed thinking you have just told the whole world not to use serms because well you are on them your estrogen goes up... This is a fact you do know of right? HMMM maybe you did not know that i guess?

 

[needtogetmuscle]

Rodja, whether the man uses HCGenerate or NOT, E2 will rise either way without the use of an AI.. I know you must know this correct? Especially with SERM use...

Op, get a mild otc AI and then you can run HCGenerate with out the "fear" of suppressing yourself further, by using a PCT support supplement..

wow some one finally got it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[needtogetmuscle]

Yes, I am aware of this, which is why it makes even less sense to increase it even further.

No its why it makes even more sense to use a light ai during pct.

 

[needtogetmuscle]

hcgenerate+forma-stanzol covers everything.

 

[Kristofer68SS]

I like the op's post cycle therapy, however I would stagger and/or have products run concurrently. Also I would add in 1 more, an AI.

I would run

Clomid- Weeks 1-4
50-75/50/25/25-
Some sort of AI, mild or Research.. Forma-Stanzol or Aromasin- Weeks 1-4
Dosage will be dependant on user. I personally dont like to bury estrogen and seem to handle estrogen just fine naturally or with lite manipulation.

HCGenerate and Lean Xtreme weeks 3-6.

Run stoked from weeks 2-5

With the OP's list of products, this is how I would personally run them.

Should be a good pct IMO.

My two pennies.

Remember folks, HCGenerate was actually designed by Nathan to be ran ON CYCLE to help PREVENT HPTA shutdown. HCGenerate in PCT is great IMO, but should be used properly.

 

[needtogetmuscle]

I like the op's post cycle therapy, however I would stagger and/or have products run concurrently.

I would run

Clomid- Weeks 1-4
50-75/50/25/25-
Some sort of AI, mild or Research.. Forma-Stanzol or Aromasin- Weeks 1-4
Dosage will be independant of user. I personally dont like to bury estrogen and seem to handle estrogen just fine naturally or with lite manipulation.

HCGenerate and Lean Xtreme weeks 3-6.

Run stoked from weeks 2-5

With the OP's list of products, this is how I would personally run them.

Should be a good pct IMO.

My two pennies.

Remember folks, HCGenerate was actually designed by Nathan to be ran ON CYCLE to help PREVENT HPTA shutdown. HCGenerate in PCT is great IMO, but should be used properly.

and yes it is best used during cycle but also works great during pct, or anytime you need a kick to the sex drive.

 

[Kristofer68SS]

This is true,

HCGenerate does bring that libido and ability back with the quickness!

On or Off cycle.

 

[Lightweight1]

Rodja, whether the man uses HCGenerate or NOT, E2 will rise either way without the use of an AI.. I know you must know this correct? Especially with SERM use...

Op, get a mild otc AI and then you can run HCGenerate with out the "fear" of suppressing yourself further, by using a PCT support supplement..

When you say AI what are you referring to ?

 

[Kristofer68SS]

When you say AI what are you referring to ?

Aromatose Inhibitor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aromatase_inhibitor

Also guys, there is no cookie cutter PCT protocol that is going to fit everyone.

There are basic guidelines and suggestions. Without blood panels, its what i call "grenade diagnostics" in my field.

Replacing several mechanical or electrical parts to fix a single/multiple drivability complaint.

Wait, did i just say that outloud? whoops.

 

[Lightweight1]

Wow I go to lift for a hour and a half and a small battle took place on my thread lol.

 

[Kristofer68SS]

Wow I go to lift for a hour and a half and a small battle took place on my thread lol.

Welcome to the world of online forums.

Its better than fist-fighting out back.

LOL.

 

[Rodja]

1. Please explain how this is going to lower over all test?
2. anyone with half a brain knows that serm level estrogen will go up (not down) when using nolvadex or clomid. So by your same thinking you are telling him not to use ether of them too right?

This is why you should also use a light ai during pct and the reason forma-stanzol and would be a way better choice over clomid or nolva. Because it works as both a serm and a ai. Add in the hcgenerate and it only gets better.

1. If you don't know how this is going to lower test, then I won't bother explaining it to you.
2. No, I'm not saying that at all. Saying that Formestane is sufficient PCT is just lying to customers to pas your sales. It does not work as a SERM in any sense and also metabolizes into 4-OHT, which can be suppressive.

No its why it makes even more sense to use a light ai during pct.

Yes, it makes sense to take something else to trash your lipids even further during PCT.

 

[Kristofer68SS]

1. If you don't know how this is going to lower test, then I won't bother explaining it to you.
2. No, I'm not saying that at all. Saying that Formestane is sufficient PCT is just lying to customers to pas your sales. It does not work as a SERM in any sense and also metabolizes into 4-OHT, which can be suppressive.



Yes, it makes sense to take something else to trash your lipids even further during PCT.

I have to ask.

What is your ideal post cycle therapy protocol for the OP's cycle? Or even a test based cycle with a designer mixed in.

I prefer my PCT's to be all inclusive. With the majority of focus in this order- Repairing the lipids first, then kidneys and liver and finally HPTA.

 

[Lightweight1]

Ok now that I know what AI 's are what do you guys recommend as the best one ?