Noob Havoc Log (and help, please)

[JohnRock]

Hey guys, I'm about to start my first PH (I know, Epistane/Havoc is really a steroid) and could use some advice from those of you with experience. I know there are better options if I go illegal, but that's not something I can do right now as a Sunday School teacher. Getting caught with something would reflect others poorly as well, so I'm going strictly with OTC gear. What I need the most help on is dosing and work out frequency.

I've been reading about pulsing and it sounds appealing to me for a couple reasons. Limiting sides would be wonderful, for one. But also, I've had much better luck with gains when I only lift 3-4x/ week. My routines are very close to the Wendler 5/3/1 program with a few modifications to suit my preference, but that's basically it. Not a traditional bodybuilding split by any means. So I'd like to get some sort of consensus about which is the best use of the product considering results, sides, and economics. Here are the things I'm considering:

Option 1: Pulse M/W/F or M/T/TH/F to coincide with current lifting schedule

Option 2: Continue same lifting schedule, dose daily

Option 3: Change lifting routine

I've always done cardio on my "off" days, so it's not like I'll be sitting around doing nothing when I'm not lifting. I'm just not sure exactly how much I can expect my recovery to change here. I'm not the type to get overly sore for days and days, but lifting 5-6 days a week has typically not gained me anything and I want to maximize my results here.

Thanks in advance! Log will officially start Monday!

 

[wedlund6]

i have ran many epi cycles i tried pulse once and did not like it at all (i feel bad on days off) some ppl here like pulse so they can help you there
i chimmed in cus you say you want to go otc. whats you PCT ? you need to run one with epi. i have ran 4 otc pct after epi with good results if you need help there

 

[bigpapa]

OTC pct will be fine. maybe have nolva on hand just in case, you never know. as for pulse, i would do it on ur lifting days. i am not a fan of the pulse just because bloodlevels increase and decrease frequently which gives me the thought of more possible sides, and u probably wont get as great gains as if u were doing a full cycle. id run it through the entire time.

 

[schwellington]

OTC pct will be fine. maybe have nolva on hand just in case, you never know. as for pulse, i would do it on ur lifting days. i am not a fan of the pulse just because bloodlevels increase and decrease frequently which gives me the thought of more possible sides, and u probably wont get as great gains as if u were doing a full cycle. id run it through the entire time.

why would you tell him an otc pct for a fully active steroid? I know epi isnt as suppressive as say tren(pro dienolone) or Superdrol but it is a steroid, I would reccomend clomid as it is better at hpta restart and epi cannot aromatase.

but yes dose daily

 

[MarkoPMNE]

sorry to bump into the thread, just a question for all who used rpn havoc: i have received my bottle of Cycle Support and i heard that some people preload it before using stuff like Havoc etc. my question is is it really necessery to preload it or i am ok to use it without preloading? and does it really need to be 8 pills a day? Maybe its better to continue with just milk thistle then?

 

[schwellington]

I have never preloaded before a cycle, just use it on cycle, really you will be fine

 

[JohnRock]

i have ran many epi cycles i tried pulse once and did not like it at all (i feel bad on days off) some ppl here like pulse so they can help you there
i chimmed in cus you say you want to go otc. whats you PCT ? you need to run one with epi. i have ran 4 otc pct after epi with good results if you need help there

My plan was to pick up something for cortisol control and a natural test booster for PCT, but I'm admittedly new to all this. I'd love to do something more serious, but am not willing to risk it illegally if that's my only choice. I know it sounds lame, but that's what I have to do.

I'm also taking AI Cycle Support during the cycle and I picked some similar liver detox/regeneration pills from the health food store and I've been pre-loading these just to be cautious. I'm willing to do just about anything legal to increase safety here, but it has to be legal.

 

[schwellington]

My plan was to pick up something for cortisol control and a natural test booster for PCT, but I'm admittedly new to all this. I'd love to do something more serious, but am not willing to risk it illegally if that's my only choice. I know it sounds lame, but that's what I have to do.

I'm also taking AI Cycle Support during the cycle and I picked some similar liver detox/regeneration pills from the health food store and I've been pre-loading these just to be cautious. I'm willing to do just about anything legal to increase safety here, but it has to be legal.

I understand the legality issue

I am a Follower of Christ too- and while i dont parade that i feel in this context it is proper


I dont use illegal AAS either for multiple reasons


but look a natural test booster is not enough to bring your human pituitary testicular axis(hpta) back up to speed


when using a steroid such as havoc(it is a fully active steroid NOT a prohormone just isnt on fda banned list yet) your body detects a supply of androgens, thus it stops its own production of testosterone. SO once the artifical androgen(havoc in this case) is gone your body will be left with nothing


you need a SERM preferibly clomid to restart ur natural test production- and clomid is not illegal

 

[Tomahawk88]

sorry to bump into the thread, just a question for all who used rpn havoc: i have received my bottle of Cycle Support and i heard that some people preload it before using stuff like Havoc etc. my question is is it really necessery to preload it or i am ok to use it without preloading? and does it really need to be 8 pills a day? Maybe its better to continue with just milk thistle then?

The reason y u preload... because certain support supps take a while to build up. I think hawthorne berry is a big one.

If u decide to do an otc PCT. I suggest HCGenerate(a must) and getting the Post Cycye/Unleased combo.

http://www.needtobuildmuscle.com/store/Post-Cycle-Therapy-Support-Supplements-c26/

 

[MarkoPMNE]

The reason y u preload... because certain support supps take a while to build up. I think hawthorne berry is a big one.

If u decide to do an otc PCT. I suggest HCGenerate(a must) and getting the Post Cycye/Unleased combo.

thanx for the answers guys, reason I ask is that i already started taking havoc without preloading...also i read somewhere that you must take cycle assist 4 hours after you take rpn havoc, is this really mandatory? and for pct i will do Clomid 50/50/25/25, is this ok?

thanx

 

[JohnRock]

I understand the legality issue

I am a Follower of Christ too- and while i dont parade that i feel in this context it is proper


I dont use illegal AAS either for multiple reasons


but look a natural test booster is not enough to bring your human pituitary testicular axis(hpta) back up to speed


when using a steroid such as havoc(it is a fully active steroid NOT a prohormone just isnt on fda banned list yet) your body detects a supply of androgens, thus it stops its own production of testosterone. SO once the artifical androgen(havoc in this case) is gone your body will be left with nothing


you need a SERM preferibly clomid to restart ur natural test production- and clomid is not illegal

I'll look into clomid then. Most of this stuff is new to me and I'm trying to be as prepared as possible, but obviously, I don't know everything there is to know.

 

[schwellington]

thanx for the answers guys, reason I ask is that i already started taking havoc without preloading...also i read somewhere that you must take cycle assist 4 hours after you take rpn havoc, is this really mandatory? and for pct i will do Clomid 50/50/25/25, is this ok?

thanx

no it is not manditory- i didnt even use cycle assist- it doesnt matter when u take it

and 50/50/25/25 looks good

 

[JohnRock]

OK, here's my plan as of right now...

Lifting and Dosing will be M/T/TH/F

Week 1: 20/30/40/40
Week 2: 40/40/40/40
Week 3: /40/40/40/40
Week 4: 40/40/40/40
Week 5: /40/40/40/40
Week 6: /40/40/30/20

The taper at the end isn't really intentional, it's just how many pills I have. AI Cycle Support will be dosed on same days as Havoc with Liver Detox/Regen every day as well. I still need to pick up something for cortisol and (probably) Clomid PCT. I have Arimatest which I'm considering taking for a couple weeks as an inbetween, but I'm not sure if it'll do more harm or good in getting my test levels back to normal.

Other staples will be fish oil, vit. C, GNC multi., taurine (comes in the liver pills), creatine mono., and Xtend BCAA.

I've been having good luck doing a 16/8hr fast/feed and unless anyone knows a reason I shouldn't continue this, I'll keep eating the same way. So far, it's helped me to keep from putting on much fat while bulking, so I'm assuming it will do the same on cycle. 4000-4500 cal/day, mostly clean. I'd love to say 100% clean, but I have trouble getting in that many totally clean calories, so probably 80-90% clean.

That's it! I'll update Mon. after the gym...

 

[MarkoPMNE]

no it is not manditory- i didnt even use cycle assist- it doesnt matter when u take it

and 50/50/25/25 looks good

thanx mate :sleepy:

 

[JohnRock]

This is probably a dumb question, but are there any other supplements/vitamins I shouldn't be taking the Havoc at the same time with during the day?

 

[JohnRock]

Day one: Squats. I did squats, hamstring curls, and standing calf raises today. I did a few more sets than normal, but nothing astounding...probably 20 sets total. I'm shaky, light-headed, and could probably fall asleep in three or four minutes flat, and it's normally very difficult for me to fall asleep. Not sure if this is normal, placebo effect, or what, but it is different for sure.

I made it up to 225/5 (no belt) at the squat rack going as deep as my balance and flexibility allows without tipping over. Not a record for me, but pretty decent considering it was in the middle of a workout. Most of my sets were at 185/10, which allows me to feel it better in the quads, but I like hitting the power range before I've exhausted the muscle too much. I was already eating above maintenance before today, but I'm adding a scoop of whey and a scoop of oats to me pre and post shakes just for good measure.

Oh, and here are some before shots I took last week so I can visually log the progress:

195.6 lbs by the gym scale. 8% BF according to calipers, but I'm guessing 10-12 is more accurate.

 

[bigpapa]

why would you tell him an otc pct for a fully active steroid?

because it isnt a fully active steroid.... it has to go through conversions. and epi is very mild so depending on dose, he should be fine with an OTC. ive done epi a bunch of times and it really isnt that suppressive or harsh. at 40mgs yeah a low dose serm and an OTC would be a fine pct.

 

[JohnRock]

Bench press along with some back stuff today. I'm still ridiculously sore from yesterday and absolutely drained of energy. I managed to suck it up and hit the same numbers as last week in the workout, but I felt it a lot more, I think. It was definitely more of a pump. Is it usual to feel warm and just dead tired after dosing?

Oh well, tomorrow is an off day and I need it. I might just stay in bed 'til noon.

 

[6packhunter]

where did you get your havoc from? Ive been searching and cant find rpn havoc anywhere.

 

[JohnRock]

I found it at Orbit Nutrition.

Rest day FTW today. My weight's been a bit low the past few days despite eating a TON, so I've decided to try and catch up on my off day by not doing my normal fast/feed. I'm sure I'll get it dialed in soon enough. I thought 4000-4500 calories would be enough to bulk, so it could just be some water weight or I might need to add more. We'll see.

I'm still sore as heck today, but energy levels are better and I feel rested after sleeping about 10 hours last night. I was considering cardio on off days, but I can tell I still need the recovery, so anything intense is out of the question and I hate low intensity cardio with a passion.

 

[JohnRock]

Deadlifts today, along with some ab stuff and shrugs. I ate a bit too much before the workout and nearly puked, along with the high blood pressure feeling. I normally have really low BP, so I don't know if it's *actually* high or just high for me, but I really don't like the feeling and hope it goes away soon. If not, I'm not sure I'll be able to finish the cycle. I'm sure a lot of it was the extra food I ate before lifting, but the gym scale had me at 198.8 today, which is up considerably. It looked like it was all in the stomach...probably because it was. lol

Oh, I decided to try my deads on a platform today, so I didn't get as heavy on the weight as usual, but it did feel like a really complete that definitely did the job.

 

[JohnRock]

Well, pulse is definitely off. Every 1st day back, I feel terrible, but 2nd day I'm fine. So, it's going to be 3 caps/day every day for a month.

I went to bed last night weighing 198.8 and woke up at 194.4. That's a LOT of water weight or something. Trying to push hard for that 200 mark, but it's a lot of food with my metabolism right now. I'm getting more calories than I'd like in liquid form, but at least the shakes are healthy, made up of oats and whey. I'm trying every day to get more of the calories in actual food, but it is difficult. I feel bloated and distended a lot. Anywho...

Workout today was a good one. Probably 35 minutes total, but very minimal brakes. I started with mil. press and set a new P.R. of 130 lbs for 3 reps, sitting. I also did some chins, Arnold press, and curls. Good day all in all. No high BP feelings or any of that so far, but I was definitely feeling the burn in my shoulders and biceps earlier. Depending on soreness and energy levels tomorrow, I'll do some form of cardio. If energy is up, I'll do something from Insanity, if not, probably just some quick tabata sprints.

-j

 

[JohnRock]

195.6 this morning. I'm headed to the basement for some heavy bag work and maybe some core moves with the medicine ball. Anyone here or am I talking to myself?

-j

 

[pillsRgood]

Im following you for sure man, so yes we are here! My havoc cycle is set for january and Im curious to see how all this ends up for you! For my PCT, I chose to go with torimefene and my cycle isnt a pulse, so those are the ony diffs between the two cycles...Your BP still seem back to normal? How is your sleep patterns? I used H-drol while back and didnt sleep for 4 weeks, so Im hoping I dont have the same problems...

 

[JohnRock]

I've been sleeping pretty good the past few days and no weird high BP feelings anymore. I decided not to pulse. I thought I would, but I can't handle feeling like crap the first day back on. I'm still researching for PCT. Clomid has some sides that scare me like irreversible vision problems, so I don't think I'll be going that route.

 

[pillsRgood]

so far, everything that I have read on torimefene has been very positive. Its considered the least side effects and works the fastest. Many that have used it state that the first 2 weeks have brought them back to feeling normal and that they taper way down for weeks 3 and 4....Just a bit of info on what Ive found...

 

[JohnRock]

198.8 this morning. My body fat reading is still about the same, but I measured my waist and it's almost 1" bigger than the last time I measured. Grumble. I'll update after squats later.

 

[JohnRock]

I ended up swapping today and tomorrow's workouts. I have karate tonight and I thought doing squats would just wear me down too much. So, I went with chest and back and had a decent workout. I'm still not seeing any numbers really go up or improvements in appearance, but I guess I'm just 8 days in, so maybe it's premature. Weight is definitely up, but I doubt much of it is muscle.

 

[pillsRgood]

Since you are not pulsing any longer, what dosage are you using and for how long? Also I have read several studies that have stated that grapefruit juice with orals increases the absorption...Edwitt started a thread bout it a while back at: http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/149958-save-grapefruit-juice.html?
Maybe this would help things out a bit for you, plus if you only have 1 bottle but wanna stretch the cycle out for 6 weeks, using grapefrit juice with lower dosages might enable you to do this...maybe others would chime in and offer more/better advice on this one, cause I am def no expert... Hopefully things pick up for ya, Im counting on it so I know my cylce will be good!!

 

[JohnRock]

I might give the grapefruit juice a shot. I'm taking 3 caps/day and I'm fine with it only being a 4 week cycle...no need to extend it, but if I can increase the absorption even better.

 

[pillsRgood]

What did you decide on for PCT anyhow?

 

[JohnRock]

Wow...read the entire thread and I think I'll be passing on the grapefruit juice.

 

[texdb1]

you need a SERM preferibly clomid to restart ur natural test production- and clomid is not illegal

Where is Clomid available OTC?

 

[pillsRgood]

Yeah, I hear ya on the grapefruit juice, I've gone back and forth on that 1 myself... When the time comes to start my cycle, I might just use 4-6 oz's with my preworkout dose of havoc only, that way I really rage on the iron!

 

[JohnRock]

I'm still trying to make up my mind on a PCT. After reading that Clomid can possibly cause vision loss, even if it's slight, that's a huge issue to me. It would be anyway, but since I make my living as an artist, I need to keep my eyes in shape more than my biceps...

 

[Tomahawk88]

Get Torem then. It is a little more expensive, but nothing too crazy.

 

[JohnRock]

Had a great workout yesterday with about 12 sets of box squats, some hamstring curls, calf raises, and a little plyo work just for fun. On the down side, I had karate last night and had to do about 100+ push-ups even though I'm still retarded-sore from Monday. Sleep has been improving considerably. I cut out the melatonin at the beginning of the week and have been sleeping just fine.

I lifted at home and didn't have a spotter or anything, so no new P.R.'s, but I'm sure the total volume was beyond the norm for me and I was able to stick with fairly heavy weights the whole way through, so that was nice.

I'm having a really hard time gauging how much to eat. My weight has been fluctuating like crazy. One day I wake up at 199, the next 195. Hopefully the general tredn will keep climbing.

Off day today and I'm too sore for cardio, plus I need the extra time to eat. lol I'll update again tomorrow.

-j

 

[pillsRgood]

Ive read a few logs on Epi/havoc and many stated that their weight went up by a lot towards the end, once they upped cals and dosed 4 pills a day...Seems like the common factor in all of their threads was that diet, of course, has to be on point and in excess of maint. levels, in order for big weight gains to be supported... Seeing as your 6'5, I'd up the cals and go for bulk rather than a rocomp or cut, your pics reveal to me that your in no way fat, so I bet adding 15 lbs on a bulk, while basically taking a steroid, is gonna beefcake your ass up!...

 

[JohnRock]

That's my goal. I'm not worried about cutting or recomping at all right now. Cutting is easy for me. I'm just trying to pack on the mass, but it's tough to gauge when I'm all over the place on the scale. Usually, my weight goes up on the off days and down on training days, so I'm trying to keep that in mind.

 

[JohnRock]

After a ton of cashews yesterday afternoon and about 18 wings last night, I'm 201 lbs. this morning. Booyah.

 

[JohnRock]

Abs are totally gone. Who needs 'em?

 

[JohnRock]

Grumble. Looks like no time for a good workout today. I slept 4 hours last night and had to get back up to work and I'll be working all day so we can leave for vacation tomorrow. I did hit the weights in the basement for about 20 minutes and got several sets of deadlifts in along with some crunches and shrugs, but it didn't feel like much.

Oh, and I woke up at 199 lbs.

 

[pillsRgood]

Keep up the work man, your arms are lookin bigger!

 

[aussie melb]

im a long time reading but have never created a log in. this topic really interests me as i want to start an epi pulse cycle. i have the epistane but no otc support yet. i was thinking of pulsing m/t off wed Th/Fr. weekend off. this is my regular training days.
living in australia its quite hard to get support supps so i was thinking of taking AI cycle support/liv 52/hawthorne berry through out the whole cycle...is this ok? pct is also hard to get my hands on a serm so i was thinking about using AI pct supps.
im really keen to see how your log finishes up

 

[JohnRock]

I've been on vacation for several days, but still working out, although with some modification to my normal routines due to a lack of equipment at the resort gym. Still hitting it hard though. I haven't seen a scale all week and I have this nasty suspicion my weight is down. I'll be trying to overeat the rest of the week and maybe make up for it. I'm on week three now, so the Havoc should be in full effect and I don't want to waste it on low calories.

 

[Tomahawk88]

I've been on vacation for several days, but still working out, although with some modification to my normal routines due to a lack of equipment at the resort gym. Still hitting it hard though. I haven't seen a scale all week and I have this nasty suspicion my weight is down. I'll be trying to overeat the rest of the week and maybe make up for it. I'm on week three now, so the Havoc should be in full effect and I don't want to waste it on low calories.

Nice keep hitting the weights and food. Like u said should be getting the good effects right about now :cheers:

 

[JohnRock]

Just ordered HCGenerate and it should be at my doorstep in time for week 4, I hope. I'll probably start taking it as soon as I get it and overlap with the Havoc by a week.

 

[Tomahawk88]

Just ordered HCGenerate and it should be at my doorstep in time for week 4, I hope. I'll probably start taking it as soon as I get it and overlap with the Havoc by a week.

Dont worry it will get there QUICK. That is one of the BEST things about NTBM is the customer service.

 

[pillsRgood]

Any new stats or news on your cycle?!?

 

[JohnRock]

Haven't been near a scale on vacation, but workouts have been pretty good and calories are up. I hit a new PR today with 50 lb concentration curls for 5 reps/arm.