- 06-04-2004, 07:39 PM
I had been on PH and AS for about 11 out of the last 12 months. I did HCG during the last 3 weeks of my cycle(atrophy, big time) and Nolva PCT. It is now 5 1/2 weeks clean. I got my blood checked for liver, kidneys,testosterone, etc. Everything was good, but what I'm wondering is that my testosterone was 265. I wish I had my blood done before I ever did anything to reference it to. I was wondering if you guys think that 265 is O.K. for being 5 1/2 weeks PCT or should it be higher? My nads came back with the HCG, but my libido still isn't there. I'm 34 years old, I have been off PCT for 1 1/2 weeks. Is there anything else I should be doing? The doctor says I'm in the average range(200-800) but 265 seems to low to build any muscle, what do you think? Thanks for any advice.
- 06-04-2004, 07:54 PM
What type of gear were you on? Your libido will probably come around, but it will be hard to tell because you have been on gear for 11months. You have probably gotten use to having a high sexdrive and now it will be in low gear for a while. Hang in there. 265 is not to bad, but its hard to build muscle at that level.
- 06-04-2004, 08:17 PM
I was on 1-AD for about seven months(along with 4-AD for about 1/2 of that), then 1 month off, then M1T 1 month on, then did Test prop for 2 1/2 months, with HCG the last 3 weeks. At what level do you think you can build muscle? I'm going to get my test. checked in about another month.
06-04-2004, 09:40 PM
that would depend on the individual but 265 is not that bad.. I would stay off anything for a while.. at least 8 or 9 months to give you body time to recover.. time off=time on
06-04-2004, 10:05 PM
its not good either, some docs say 200 is the 'cut off' others say <300 is too low, but 650 is def mid range and 800 is naturally perfect. If you can find it, try Farston @120mg/day for awhile. Nobody talks about it but it's the best nut rebounder I've ever used. Try some yohimbe and macca in the mean to retain libido.
06-05-2004, 12:26 PM
Thanks guys for the advice, I know I was on way to long. I hadn't used anything for 6 years just because it is so mentally addicting.
06-05-2004, 12:36 PM
Make sure you are doing things to get kick in GH and test levels naturally, lots of rest...if you can get some naps in, do it...train for short periods of time...60 mins...you can also try supping with ZMA....if you are deficiect it will help natural levels get produced and it will make you sleep good.Originally Posted by muscles4life
08-06-2004, 07:32 PM
Update: It has now been over three months and I had my testosterone levels checked again. My test has DROPPED to 129, my LH is 2.0. Why is everything dropping more even after three months? I've been taking ZMA, Arginine, Flax oil, Maca and Vitamins the entire time, also my nads are getting smaller and I have no libido. I will be going back to the Doc again to see if I need HRT or TRT, but with everything you've read in this thread, is there any more advice or info you can give me to why after three months I got worse, even with proper PCT and HCG? Any help or experiences with this would be greatly appreciated.
08-06-2004, 07:39 PM
I dunno man, I wish you the best though...make sure you let us all know what you end up doing and what the doc says....Originally Posted by muscles4life
The only thing I can think of would be stress/anxiety, etc. Or even your diet? How's that been latley?
08-06-2004, 07:46 PM
Any way there could be a permanent hypogonadic state induced by 11 months of PH/AAS use?
08-06-2004, 07:52 PM
That's what I'm afraid of.Originally Posted by Enigma76
08-06-2004, 07:53 PM
My diet is always pretty good, plenty of protein and enough fats and carbs. Non processed foods majority of the time.Originally Posted by Jergo
08-06-2004, 08:16 PM
I was once suppressed for about 16 months like that. It can be discouraging. I started using DHEA at 200mg/d and my nuts normalized pretty fast. If your thyroxine leves are low, you may never rebound properly. You may need a pituitary jumper like clomid. I still suggest the Fareston, but if you can't find it, Nolva or Clomid. I'm suprised the maca didn't help w/ libido. Also, the older you get the harder it is to recover from abusively long cycles. How long till you see the doc again?
08-06-2004, 08:20 PM
a long shot, but what did you do before you got the test taken? i remember in one of super soliders posts, he had some "fun" before he took a test and it was low, but i could be wrong.
08-06-2004, 08:58 PM
all i have to say is best of luck to you..live and learn i suppose
08-07-2004, 11:11 AM
Your right, I knew the damage that could be done and did it anyway.Originally Posted by keith1569
08-07-2004, 11:17 AM
Originally Posted by DR.D
Should I take DHEA and Nolva or just one or the other? Should I take the Nolva just like PCT and take 40mg two weeks, then 20 one week and ten the last week? How long of a cycle did you do or what were you taking to shut yourself down that long? I will be seeing the doc this coming week.
08-07-2004, 11:19 AM
Originally Posted by Harland
Nothing, I took the test at about 11:00 A.M. Left from work to see the doc. Both tests were done at the same time of the morning. No "fun" the night before either.
08-07-2004, 05:54 PM
Also, if I take DHEA, will it supress my LH more or help it? I really want to naturally try to get my test levels back up and what about gyno from DHEA?
08-07-2004, 06:47 PM
i believ ethat dhea(correct me if im wrong) is a natural way of bringin ur test levels up to normal like zma or trib..thats my 2 cents though
08-07-2004, 06:50 PM
Id take 100mg of DHEA in the morning and 100 more at noon. I’d take 100mg Clomid or 60mg Nolva all at once every night before bed. I’d do that for 2-4 wks then reevaluate things. You might need to go another month, then Id cut the SERM dose in half and keep the DHEA @ 200mg/d still. I was mainly using methyltest solo off and on at about 25mg/d for over a year. Not a real cycle, just freestylin it, mostly on. That is some suppressive ****, plus I was breaking all the rules of use. That was back in my teens when I didn’t really give a ****. If you are going back to the doc next week, Id wait and see what he wants to do. Try and hit him up for some Fareston, it’s the Cadillac of Nolva, the best Ive ever used in fact. DHEA will not suppress you at that dose, and is very unlikely to promote gyno especially if you are using a SERM. But it will provide your body with the starting block it need to make test from the SERM stimulation. DHEA is std PCT for me. Like Keith1569 just said above, if you like natural, then DHEA is you friend.Originally Posted by muscles4life
08-07-2004, 07:42 PM
Thanks DR.D and everyone else for your advice, you have been very helpful. I will follow your advice DR.D and do the DHEA and Nolva and see the doc. I'll keep you updated and see if I can get mine going again.
08-11-2004, 10:40 AM
Take a look at sythetic LH....
Originally Posted by muscles4life
08-11-2004, 10:50 AM
Take a look at sythetic LH...... Perhaps even schedule with an infertility specialist
accustomed to working with synthetic LH/FSH etc. You can of course continue the clomid
for the longer term as was already suggested in this thread -- and I think that you should.
Are you no longer responsive to the HCG? Do you find any short term testicular volume increases
with the dosing ? ACEE now recommends long term use of HCG for hypo and hyper hypogonadism patients. One prominent anti-aging group tells me that they average 5-7 years of cascading up dosages until they get to the HCG max at 3,333 IU 2x wk and then these people generally wind up on exogenous T only.
My thought is if your responsive to the HCG and assuming that the leydig cell population isn't atrophied to some disfunctional/terminal point.... that you start at your 1,000 IU 2x/wk and titrate doses based on the T&F Test every 2 weeks to try to get into that 700-900 range -- and continue this long term.
At age 27, my natural T was 373. Before this my first cycle, I was using HCG for several months to boost and after it, I'll not come off of the HCG.... as I expect to always need something to keep my Test optimal.. whether exogeneous or an endogenous pusher..
Hope this helps.
Originally Posted by muscles4life
08-11-2004, 04:10 PM
Thanks for the info crazydoc, but doesn't HCG fry the leydig cells the longer you use it? When I did use HCG my nads grew big time, then after I went off they shrunk. So your saying since my nads grew, my LH might be shot but leydig cells will respond to HCG long term with out frying them? I better find my HCG cheaper then.
08-11-2004, 06:48 PM
I'm not comfortable with the term fry. Leydig cell population is reduced over time as a person ages naturally. The extent to which the HCG can act in the place of LH in such stimulation is reduced over time--- that is the sensitivity of the population to HCG is reduced. It is possible to get this reduced response by way of too high a dosing and wind up with smaller testicular volume than you had before starting. You can't use it succesfully forever (unless you die before about 50-55) but the long term use in persons with sufficient leydig populations, but I've seen persons make it 5-7 years before shifting off to exogenous test. I've also seen persons intermittently incorporate it into exogenous test HRT therapies to reduce testicular atrophy into the 70s.
I do want you to restore you natural LH push and increase the total endogenous test using the HCG in hypogonatropic hypogonadism (temporarily what you are as the LH is low)... Everyone has a different response curve. Run a given dosage -- you said 1,000 IU every 3rd day-- after 4 weeks--- run the T&F Test and LH.. use your clomid the while--- if your LH was at 2 as was said--- perhaps consider the 50mg AM/PM instead of a single 50mg ... increase your doses by a few hundred IU if you under 700 still.. .. go 4 weeks.. repeat.... I pay 35$ for LH/FSH and $39 for the Total and Free testosterone... no venipuncture fees.. <smirk>..... just titrate yourself into zone.. or better yet.. if you have insurance...... go see an endrocrinologist... tell him what you did.... and that you want help restoring the LH/FSH and endogenous test... mention that you'd like to work with clomid and hcg in the therapy..... you may very well get coverage for the clomid and HCG even though both are relatively cheap...
Have a read at the American Assoc of Clinical Endocrinologists... the backgrounder on hypo and hyper hypogonadism..... you'll enjoy the read I think ....http://www.aace.com/clin/guidelines/hypogonadism.pdf
They can also work with GnRH for the LH push...
Good luck........... as much as so many physicians particularly endocrinologists can be difficult as regard these things.. remember that they work for you when your the patient.... tell them what you want, need, and know... If you have insurance.. why not use it... at the very least you might get your clomid and hcg covered for a while..
08-11-2004, 06:51 PM
HCG should be cheap.... Drugstore.com -- around 35$/per 10 kIU-- its APP-- prescription needed there.... Its isolated
from pregnant women's urine... what a swell job.... even if insurance doesn't cover.. at least you have a cheap legitimate route once diagnosed....
Originally Posted by muscles4life
08-11-2004, 07:22 PM
Great info CD1! I wanted to add that unless you have ultra primo insurance, you'll be paying for it yourself. Fertility meds are rarely covered under any circumstances.Originally Posted by crazydoc1
08-12-2004, 04:15 PM
Thanks, you guys have helped me out big time. I'm going to make an appointment with the endo, since I do have good insurance. Great info, thanks again!
08-26-2004, 09:53 AM
Keep us updated.. and good luck manOriginally Posted by muscles4life
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