Nolva - Permanent Eye damage?

horizons

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Hi guys,

I realise this has been a already discussed and studies have been done to say Nolvadex can cause eye problems and even more serious permanent eye damage (Retina etc). Some people say its worse than clomid because with Clomid the eye problems dimish where Nolva causes permanent irreversable eye damage.

Has anyone experienced this on first hand, any eye problems while on Nolva? and what doses where you using and for how long?

This kind of data scares the CRAP out of me, because i already have bad eye sight and wear contacts and glasses for it. But then i think, they say smoking cigarettes causes permanent eye damage also but i see people smoking away and never have any problems lol

Also is the data that the women showed damage to their eyes and eye sight....but a normal dosage time for women for cancer is to take Nolva at 20mgs a day for 5 years! Us bodybuilders do it for maybe maximum 6 weeks at a time and at a pretty low dosage....well sordof. there are people out there that dose it extremley high but is this to be taken seriously?!

This side effect i would definitley like to avoid in my future cycles so i might opt for Clomid. Alot of guys on AM really like Clomid compared to Nolva anyways and i would only use Nolva for on cycle gyno as it worked wonders! I found that Nolva took AGES to get my testical atrophy to get back up to normal but i got no eyesight problems....well i dont know lol

Is this side effect very common and has anyone got any studies? I have looked everywhere and there only noted side effects just like every other OTC drug on their websites. There are a few people that swear by Clomid due to the fact that Nolva is much more harsher in that respect as its a anti cancer drug and Clomid is only a SERM used for fertitily...

I am opting to go for Clomid for my next PCT, anyones experienced this, have studies proving the high percenatage of eye damage with Nolva users or do people just rather Clomid due to that fact? Mannnn, i would rather NOT be blind or to pay for my eyesight to be stuffed for the rest of my life?! mmmm, to be blind, have gyno, small balls, etc etc etc lol ;)
 
GeekPoop

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Id say just go nolva, if you get gyno use letro. nolva avoided completely.

To answer you question Ive never had eye problems on on nolva.
 
horizons

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So it doesnt scare you that Nolva causes permanent eye damage to people?

I always thought Letro was the LAST resort for gyno...

Have you tried Clomid yourself?
 
horizons

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QUOTE
Tamoxifen and Your Eyes

by Dana Isherwood

http://www.bcaction.org/Pages/Search...etter025G.html

The insert that comes with tamoxifen states under the heading of WARNINGS "visual disturbance including corneal changes, cataracts and retinopathy have been reported in patients receiving NOLVADEX" (tamoxifen citrate). Although information is provided under the heading of ADVERSE REACTIONS, ocular toxicity is not listed. This raises three very important questions:

1. Are visual disturbances a rare event?
2. Do they occur at low doses (i.e., 20 mg/day)? and
3. If they occur, are they reversible?

During 1978 to 1990, only six publications; and eight patients with ocular toxicity were reported in the English language literature, thus suggesting that this adverse side effect is either a rare event or underreported. That it can occur at low doses is documented. In Pavlidis et al [Cancer, Vol. 69, No. 12, pp. 2961-2964 (1993)], researchers reported that out of 63 patients receiving 20 mg/day for 5 to 51 months, 4 patients (6%) developed decreased visual acuity, macular edema, and retinal opacities. Discontinuation of the drug resulted in a reversal of the decreased visual acuity and macular edema, but the retinal opacities remained.

At the American Association for Cancer Research annual meeting in San Francisco April 10-13, 1994, researchers from the University Hospital in Zurich, Switzerland, reported that not only does ocular toxicity occur at Low doses, but that the reversibility of visual symptoms is dependent on total cumulative dose. Twenty patients with visual symptoms; caused by tamoxifen were studied. Results showed that in 85% of patients deterioration of vision was the first symptom. Corneal, retinal and optic nerve abnormalities were reported in 60% of patients on less than 10 grams in total, 20% of patients on less than 100 grams in total, and in none of the patients taking more than 100 grams in total. At 20 mg/day, this equates to taking tamoxifen for somewhere between 1.4 years (10 g) to 13.7 years (100 g).

Dr. Piotr Szczesny who reported these results in San Francisco also mentioned that he has found that, since most breast cancer patients are women over 50, many doctors who are not well versed in this potentially devastating side effect will assume that the lack of visual acuity reported by their patients are the result of aging eyes rather than tamoxifen. These women will continue to take tamoxifen, thus increasing their chance of permanent injury.

BOTTOM LINE: Ocular toxicity from tamoxifen is a rare side effect with a potential for permanent damage to the eyes if not recognized early. If you are on tamoxifen, have your eyes examined annually. If you have any problems at all with your vision, see an ophthalmologist as soon as possible.




Posted by Born2Juice4Ever on IFL.

QUOTE
The article linked to below proposes that the ocular damage caused by tamoxifen is due to oxidative stress. The authors suggest that the use of antioxidants may help prevent such damage.

Exp Biol Med (Maywood). 2004 Jul;229(7):607-15.

Oxidative stress plays an important role in the pathogenesis of drug-induced retinopathy.

Toler SM.

Clinical Safety and Risk Management, Pfizer Inc., Pfizer Global Research and Development, 50 Pequot Avenue, New London, CT 06320. [email protected]

Several pharmaceutical agents have been associated with rare but serious retinopathies, some resulting in blindness. Little is known of the mechanism(s) that produce these injuries. Mechanisms proposed thus far have not been embraced by the medical and scientific communities. However, preclinical and clinical data indicate that oxidative stress may contribute substantially to iatrogenic retinal disease. Retinal oxidative stress may be precipitated by the interaction of putative retinal toxins with the ocular redox system. The retina, replete with cytochromes P450 and myeloperoxidase, may serve to activate xenobiotics to oxidants, resulting in ocular injury. These activated agents may directly form retinal adducts or may diminish ocular reduced glutathione concentrations. Data are reviewed that suggest that indomethacin, tamoxifen, thioridazine, and chloroquine all produce retinopathies via a common mechanism-they produce ocular oxidative stress

Full article can be accessed here:

http://www.ebmonline.org/cgi/content/full/229/7/607




Posted by Liftsiron on SBI.

QUOTE
Cancer. 1988 Jan 1;61(1):33-5.

Reversible ocular toxicity related to tamoxifen therapy.

Ashford AR, Donev I, Tiwari RP, Garrett TJ.

Department of Medicine, Harlem Hospital Center, New York, NY 10037.

A 42-year-old woman with metastatic breast cancer developed bilateral optic disc swelling, retinal hemorrhages, and visual impairment three weeks after starting treatment with low doses of tamoxifen. Neurologic evaluation failed to provide an explanation for the ocular findings which resolved completely after cessation of tamoxifen therapy. This case suggests that tamoxifen has the potential for causing serious ophthalmologic toxicity which may be reversible if recognized early.

Long term studies in breast cancer patients using tamoxifen have shown an incidence of ocular toxicity of about 6%, with retinal opacity being the irreversible side effect. Other optic problems seem to resolve when the drug is withdrawn.
 
horizons

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Cases per year out of 1000 women taking NOLVADEX and taking PLACEBO



Breast Cancer 3.6 6.5
Endometrial Cancer 2.3 0.9
Blood clot in the lungs 0.8 0.3
Blood clot in the veins 1.3 0.8
Stroke 1.4 1.0
Cataracts 25.4 22.5
Cataract surgery 46.6 31.4

That percentage is pretty high!
 

Liftingstud

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I am an eye doctor... The duration that you take the tamoxifen you shouldn't have any of the above eye problems. Usually associated with long term treatment.
 
horizons

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Hey Liftingstud, thanks for the reply.

I am just wondering why their people out their on forums complaining about getting permanent eye damage from Nolvadex? I mean it is not very many but it doesnt sit well with me.

What is your opinion on Clomid?
 
Fatal Wisdom

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I'm worried about this too actually... wouldn't an "eye doctor" know he is called an optometrist? lol
 

on the run

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Hey Liftingstud, thanks for the reply.

I am just wondering why their people out their on forums complaining about getting permanent eye damage from Nolvadex? I mean it is not very many but it doesnt sit well with me.

What is your opinion on Clomid?
like who? Bbers have to be the most obsessive compulsive/paranoid lot of people ever, just observe the thousands of "OMG DO I HAVE GYNO" posts every day. the type of insecurity that breeds the compulsion to get bigger/better looking/work out etc also means they tend to be over-paranoid about negative changes in the body eg gyno/hair loss/sides
/whatever. my bet is a heap of those people who suffered 'eye damage' from nolva probably had the damage to begin with, took the nolva then hit the forums and read some 'nolva causes eye damage thread' and suddenly "MY EYES, WHAT HAS IT DONE TO ME!!"

that or it was just a natural diminishing of the eyes due to age (notice how the amount of people with cataracts using the placebo was almost as high as those using nolva), and this is of course from people on high doses of the drug year round, not using it for 4 weeks in pct..
 

Liftingstud

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For the dose your using and duration the added risk is null IMO, that is if ur just using in pct. Now for people that are on long duration inj cycles and use it on cycle for gyno control it may cause issues. I think you would be more concerned with the other risk factors associate with aaa use. But even these are blow out of proportion by the media.
 
heckler7

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isn't high blood pressure and high blood sugar more damaging to the eye?
 
EasyEJL

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Cases per year out of 1000 women taking NOLVADEX and taking PLACEBO



Breast Cancer 3.6 6.5
Endometrial Cancer 2.3 0.9
Blood clot in the lungs 0.8 0.3
Blood clot in the veins 1.3 0.8
Stroke 1.4 1.0
Cataracts 25.4 22.5
Cataract surgery 46.6 31.4

That percentage is pretty high!
What percentage is high? 15 more women out of 1000 who are taking higher doses of nolva than you would, coupled with them taking it 12 months a year because its for breast cancer and they are only taking it BECAUSE THEY ALREADY HAD BREAST CANCER. And what confuses me even more is how almost twice as many women got cataract surgery as had cataracts??????

So you are looking at a group that is so far different from both bodybuilding usage pattern, as well as bodybuilding physical characteristics that the numbers are almost irrelvant. on the run has it right, look at how many gyno claims there are per day on this forum just over someone being a lardass, or getting some slight nipple swelling. Or guys freaking out because they think their balls are still smaller after PCT. I duno about you, but i've never taken a caliper to my balls to measure them, so whether they are much smaller or much bigger is just a guess.
 
horizons

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It is a very testy issue i suppose...

Does anyone go Clomid over Nolva to feed their paranoia over this issue?

Good points made though
 
horizons

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mmm read that.....doesnt really make me comfortable.

In your opinion is that high enough stat to be worried with? when us BB only take it for 4- 6 weeks??

As people said up above, these studies show on women that take for periods of 5 years
 
horizons

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Anyone else a touch worried about this side effect in particular?

I know clomid has some eye issues while on it but then it goes away after your PCT. Nothing permanent i dont think....

I think the word permanent worries me LOL
 
EasyEJL

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I look at this as similar to the B-6 issue. If you take b-6 as pyridoxine HCL, 200mg/day taken for 6 months or longer may cause permanent nerve damage. 600mg/day taken for as short as 2-3 months may cause permanent nerve damage. 50mg a day taken a lifetime has no reported instances of nerve damanage, 600mg/day taken for 2 weeks to combat prolactin has no reported instances of nerve damage, and is often recommended by doctors to women who were nursing a child and either had the child die, or decided to stop nursing.
 
horizons

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"In approximately 0.6-12% of patients systemic tamoxifen therapy is complicated by ocular toxicity."

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed : tamoxifen ocular toxicity
Does this study worry anyone?

I think anything like above post means any drug taken for long period of times will cause some serious side effects just like AAS will.

I am going Clomid next time anyways, i just dont like that side effect, it doesnt sit well with me. I am on my last week of Nolva 20/20/10/10 and took some on my cycle for gyno assistance at 20mg a day for a week or so.

Does anyone have any other studies or info?
 
horizons

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I look at this as similar to the B-6 issue. If you take b-6 as pyridoxine HCL, 200mg/day taken for 6 months or longer may cause permanent nerve damage. 600mg/day taken for as short as 2-3 months may cause permanent nerve damage. 50mg a day taken a lifetime has no reported instances of nerve damanage, 600mg/day taken for 2 weeks to combat prolactin has no reported instances of nerve damage, and is often recommended by doctors to women who were nursing a child and either had the child die, or decided to stop nursing.
So what do you use for PCT if you dont mind me asking?

So the studies and this particular side effect doesnt worry you at all?
 
EasyEJL

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I've used nolva for pct, or clomid, but largely natural products. overall I prefer nolva to the other serms. The study doesn't bother me because its not based on bodybuilders using it at 20mg for 4 weeks (or 40/30/20/10), but on women dosing it at 20-40mg/day are on it for life.

And seriously, regardless of the nolva group being higher, how do you have more people getting cataract surgery than have cataracts?

Cataracts 25.4 22.5
Cataract surgery 46.6 31.4
 

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