non toxic to liver phs?
- 07-27-2010, 12:53 PM
non toxic to liver phs?
I know that their are ph's outthere that are not toxic to the liver, but they all seem to be much more mild and rearing only mild results. The first one that come to mind is 1-t from primordial performance. My question is why dont guys use non liver toxic ph's more often and what others are out there?
- 07-27-2010, 12:57 PM
- 07-27-2010, 01:19 PM
i have used 1 andro rx from iron mag and stacked it with epi a few time nice cycle. i think 1 andro by it self would be to weak. i do start it 2 weeks before the epi and i do not get much till i add in the epi. i know it does somthing though solo epi my joints kill no sleep pain all the time when stack no real joint problems at all
07-27-2010, 01:50 PM
because no one can afford to run non methylated oral steroids/pro hormones at a high enough dosage to be really effective.
the only one left out now is max lmg, and this has it's own other sides to cope with besides liver toxicity.
when I ran 4-androstenediol, i could start out with a low dosage, around 600mg for the first few days, but by the end of the first week, I had to have the dosage up to 1000mg to keep the gains comming.
1000mg of a 1 step pro hormone to test. how much would be needed of a 2 step ph to get similar effects, too costly to find out.
you gotta pay to play, one way or another, whether it's more money for saftey, less money, more sides, w/e.
more gains, more sides, less sides, less gains, thats life, nothing is free.
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07-27-2010, 02:03 PM
The best answers have already been given: cost and instant gratification.
Cost - yes the non-methyls now are expensive to run at doses needed for results anywhere comparable to the methyls. This is not to say they can't be effective (I personally have had very satisfactory results with 1-T).
IG - most kids nowadays (and I say kids b/c it seems the younger 20-somethings do this most often) are perfectly happy accepting the risks that the methyls bring, as long as they "get hyoooge" as fast as humanly possible. The fact is that most won't have any serious medical complications from a few methyl steroid cycles; then again I certainly wouldn't want to be the one that does.
Have you run any PH-DS before? Just curious.
07-27-2010, 03:52 PM
no i am all natural. I do have a stock up epi, but do not feel ready to run that yet. I would like to find out more about 1-t seems like a good safe alternative as far as hormones go. I have read a few reviews and seem people really love the results. On avg seems about 5lbs of muslce and loss of fat and no liver toxicity seems badass to me.
07-27-2010, 03:57 PM
If you run a nonmethyl cycle, whatever compound you decide to use, get plenty of it.
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07-27-2010, 04:13 PM
Imo the whole toxicity issue is blown way out of proportion the liver has remarkable ability to regenerate there are other sides however that are of much more concern such as BP and these vary compound by compound
20mg dbol has the equivalent toxicity as a shot of alcohol the key is not to run the more toxic compounds for long periods and give liver time to regenerate imo
07-27-2010, 04:40 PM
07-27-2010, 05:02 PM
You're right, I'd rather run a low dose cycle of epi or H-drol than a cycle of max lmg or tren where you have to worry about the whole prolactin sides issue. Take your support supps and avoid alcohal and imo you're way safer running one of the more "mild" methyls than a non-methalated progestin
07-27-2010, 05:24 PM
thanks for all suggestions. I have havoc and would love to take it. I have had several buddies take it even with OTC pct and are all fine. They did not drink on cycle and some did. They got blood work done and turned out fine. This input is very interesting.
07-27-2010, 06:36 PM
07-27-2010, 07:38 PM
07-27-2010, 07:43 PM
07-27-2010, 07:54 PM
07-27-2010, 08:39 PM
07-27-2010, 08:40 PM
07-27-2010, 08:42 PM
07-27-2010, 08:47 PM
07-27-2010, 09:41 PM
im eating cheese sticks.....
07-28-2010, 04:04 PM
07-28-2010, 04:16 PM
You can get excellent results from a non-methylated cycle, there's plenty of guys running 1-T with AndroHard and Dermacrine and getting great results
My personal choice would be Tren LV, AndroHard and Dermacrine for a nice non-methylated stack...followed by the TRS and TCF-1 of course...
07-28-2010, 04:18 PM
thanks dragon for your post. What was your pct for 1-t i know most people use the test recovery stack, but i worry about that and would not mind getting a serm. Also thought about running 1-t and androhard together.
07-28-2010, 04:22 PM
If 1 guy takes 20 mg dbol daily forever, and another downs a shot of alcohol daily forever, you tell me who's liver will be compromised sooner. In fact, a shot of alcohol a day likely won't result in any long-term issues, but you can bet your ass 20 mg of dbol will.
Further, liver stress from alcohol and dbol are 2 different things. They may both end up in the same place (hepatitis -> cirrhosis), but they have different ways of getting there.
07-28-2010, 04:42 PM
wish i had some tren lv
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07-28-2010, 04:49 PM
07-28-2010, 06:10 PM
07-28-2010, 07:23 PM
my point was "the liver has a remarkable ability to regenerate"
Very close friend and very knowelegable one at that ran Dbol @ 50mg ED for 6 months and he has regular blood work hormonal panels
Dude i used to drink a bottle a day not a shot, still here
Who do you know who has long term issues from taking to many oral steroids? i dont know any (im sure there are some) but i know plenty of people who have long term issues/failure from alcohol
The comparison wasnt supposed to be taken literally but you get my point a 4 week cycle aint gonna do sh!t that cant be undone
Maybe you should stick to creatine
Eat clean, piss dirty
07-28-2010, 07:39 PM
07-29-2010, 02:30 AM
07-29-2010, 03:00 AM
07-29-2010, 05:55 AM
07-29-2010, 09:00 AM
07-29-2010, 09:20 AM
07-29-2010, 11:03 AM
07-29-2010, 11:09 AM
2) You are contradicting yourself with the bottle comment. Notice I said that it would be less toxic to the liver to take a shot a day than 20 mgs dbol. It may even be less toxic to drink a bottle a day. Alcohol metabolism is a little different than methyk steroid metabolism; if you understand this you'll understand why 20 mg dbol is 100% without a doubt more toxic than a drink.
3) I don't "know" anybody, but that is such weaj anecdotal evidence it's silly. How many people do I personally know that take steroids? 2, maybe 3? How many people do I know that drink alcohol, even occaisionally? Uh, dozens? It's a numbers game; there are a ton morw alcoholics out there than there are 17a steroid abusers.
4) The bolded - OK, if that's indeed the case, fine. But it sure came across as you believed this, and who knows, some noob may read it and think that 40 mgs dbol every day for months would be fine, since they drink a few beers a day anyway and that's just an equivalent toxicity. Yes, a 4-week cycle, or even 6 weeks, is fine; but that's not what I took issue with in the original post.
LOL. Weak.Maybe you should stick to creatine
07-29-2010, 01:12 PM
Ok for the record im not promoting the idea that it as safe to run Dbol for months on end... I cant really answer that but i can aTest that there are as you state dozens of people on these boards who have done what you would consider some pretty crazy cycles and and i know a lot of them, however i do not know a single one that has any long term liver issues
There are studies that specifically cover the toxicity of Dbol, ill dig them out it probably the best researched oral steriod of them all and i have them in another thread where i discussed the use of Grapefruit juice and the effect it has in increasing the bio avaliabilty of the drug aswell as elevating the sides
How do you know he is the exception.... I dont have his specific blood results from that instance no but i have mine after a harsh 4 week cycle of epi and tren stacked together they and this is the responsible thing to do when considering the use of both oral and injectable steroids, have blood drawn prior so you have a base line and after a cycle
Liver enzymes are normally found within the cells of the liver. If the liver is injured or damaged, the liver enzymes spill into the blood, causing elevated liver enzyme levels. Laboratory tests performed on blood samples can detect elevated liver enzymes.
Mine were slightly elevated and they had returned to normal after returning for check up 3 months later and this is normal and to expected with oral steroids. My point that the liver regenerates assumes that it is given time to regenerate and this is the reason alcoholics end up with irreversible damage they dont take breaks.
The OP was IMO incorrectly over concerned with liver toxicity issue in his decision of which PH to use by far the more serious potential sides are BP and potential heart failure. The liver is an amazing organ with the ability to actually regenerate. While off-cycle it heals itself rather quickly.On-cycle my biggest concerns are always blood pressure and lipid (cholesterol) levels. Be sure to take supports on your cycle.
Taken resposibly liver toxicty should not be a major concern in IMO and also in the opinion of many knowledgeable bros on this board
Ill dig out those studies i mentioned, i have a long thread here on the subject
Once again apologies for the lame dig
Ok heres we go
We all know that the alpha alkylated steroids are hepatotoxic, right... But, is there actually any truth to this? We’ve been told for years that if you take 17 alpha-alkylated steroids, you will eventually run into liver problems. Never combine 17 alpha-alkylated's, never go beyond 50mg day, never go longer than 4 weeks, etc. All of this is ! As I we walk you through some studies, today, you’ll see 17 alpha-alkylated steroids can be hepatotoxic but not to the degree you would think.
To make a steroid hepatotoxic, you need only a small change to a steroid molecule; A strong bond that cannot readily be down broken by enzymes in the liver. This may be a bond at the 17th position, or even at the 1st position (as in methenolone or proviron). Because the liver cannot easily break the steroid down before it is released in to the blood stream, this also results in the steroid to becoming more orally bio-available.
We can see that the liver has to work harder to break down these steroids. Enzymes in the blood and tissue easily metabolize other steroids such as testosterone. Commonly, this increase in liver activity has been viewed as a harmful process, but as you will see, this increase is, in and of itself, irrelevant. The liver is THE filter of the human body -- it can figure out what to do with just about anything. The only real problem comes in when one keeps their liver at full blast for long periods of time.
Let’s look at some studies showing the Hepatotoxicity of steroids. Here's one of my favorites, a study published in 1979. Essentially, researches did a study of deaths caused by hepatic angiosarcoma (a malignant tumor of vascular tissue in the liver) between 1964 and 1974. Researchers found 131 reported cases of death from hepatic angiosarcoma. Out of the 131 cases, 3.1% (4 cases) were reported to be at all related to the use of androgenic-anabolic steroids. Keep in mind that these 4 people could have liver complications before any steroids were used, aka a genetic disposition. In fact there is no proof, in this study at least, that the anabolic-androgenic steroids even caused the hepatic angiosarcoma.
This is the classic case of associating a cause with an effect, without any evidence, aside from both existing. Furthermore, based on the above numbers, there are only 0.4 cases of hepatic angiosarcoma reported each year, by those using anabolic steroids. Now consider the number of people on steroids at this time. Now factor in all the people that don’t know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to using anabolic steroids, properly. Clearly, this is very week evidence. Lastly there has not been a real increase in hepatic angiosarcoma since the early seventies. Meanwhile, there has been a huge, almost exponential, increase in steroid use during this period.
Another study, that somewhat supports the previous Hepatotoxicity case, showed the possibilities of hepatic adenomas(cysts in the liver) caused by androgenic-anabolic steroids. In this study, a Japanese girl was found to have multiple liver lesions after the use of the drug oxymetholone (aka anadrol). Most everyone “knows” that anadrol is linked with liver problems, but a closer inspection into this study shows more.
Apparently, this girl, starting at the age of 14, was diagnosed with aplastic anemia. She was prescribed oxymetholone at 30mg per day. This continued for 6 years until the lesions first appeared. Assuming that the girl was most likely around 100 lbs., this was a pretty heavy dosage. If you extrapolated this data out to a 200 - 250lbs. male, that would be taking approximately 60 - 90mg of anadrol per day for 6 years. Ouch!
The researchers also stated that there were only 17 other cases of hepatic adenomas, found in English literature between 1975 and 1998. They failed to mention the causes of these 17 cases, but there is no reason to believe they were all using 17 alpha-alkylated androgens and 17 is certainly miniscule compared to the number of people who have used them. The authors’ finish off the study by saying the following: "This report may be helpful in identifying the potion who is at risk of developing hepatic sex hormone-related tumors." So remember, if you're a small 14-year-old girl taking 30mg of anadrol per day for 6 years, you may be at risk!
Let's move on to some more useful studies. Take for example a 1995 study that showed the toxic effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids in primary rat hepatic cell cultures. In this study the researchers used the following drugs and dosages:
Steroid 1x10^-8M 1x10^-6M 1x10^-4M
19-nortestosterone 0.002744mg 0.2744mg 27.44mg
Fluoxymesterone 0.003365mg 0.3365mg 33.65mg
testosterone cypionate 0.004126mg 0.4126mg 41.26mg
Stanozolol 0.003285mg 0.3285mg 32.85mg
Danazol N/A N/A N/A
Oxymetholone 0.003325mg 0.3325mg 33.25mg
testosterone 0.002884mg 0.2884mg 28.84mg
Estradiol 0.0027424mg 0.2724mg 27.24mg
Methyltestosterone 0.003024mg 0.3024mg 30.24mg
As proof of the hepatoxicity they used Lactate dehydrogenase release, neutral red retention, and glutathione depletion to determine plasma membrane damage, cell viability, and possible oxidative injury, respectively.
What they showed was that the 17 alpha-alkylated steroids, methyltestosterone, stanozolol and oxymetholone, significantly increased Lactate dehydrogenase release and decreased neutral red retention at the 1x10^-4M dosage for 24h. Both methyltestosterone and oxymetholone also showed depleted glutathione at the 1x10^-4M dosage after 2h, 6h and 8h treatments. In other words they increased liver activity. You may also note that the other, non-alkylated steroids showed no significant difference in any levels. All in all this not only shows that 17 alpha-alkylated steroids are directly “hepatotoxic”, but also non-alkylated steroids are note hepatotoxic at all. But is this a real measure of Hepatotoxicity? There is yet to be any correlation between the increase of the above-mentioned measurement and “Hepatotoxicity”. Obviously, high dosages of the 17 alpha-alkylated steroids are potentially dangerous, but upon closer inspection, the study reveals more.
Take a look, the researchers took cell cultures from the liversse of 60-day-old Sprague-Dawley rats. Not only are rat livers much smaller than human livers, but these were merely cultures. Furthermore, it was the 1x10^-4M concentrations that caused the most changes, but these are approximately 1 to a 1/3 of a full, daily human dosage -- at least for the 17 alpha-alkylated steroids. Even at the 1x10^-6M concentration, there were no significant changes observed. It's apparent that the levels of 17 alpha-alkylated steroids used were potentially toxic, but for a human to take the same amount would be insane. I'm guessing this could translate to maybe 4 grams every 24 hours or 28 grams a week if not more.
What is common so far is we can only prove that any steroid, that is believed to be hepatotoxic, only increases liver activity. I’ll say it again, where is the correlation to Hepatotoxicity? We know that if the liver is running at 100% for long periods this may cause complications, but this is akin to any other chemical, which is metabolized by the liver. Ever noticed that liver cancer due to alcoholism takes decades of constant alcohol abuse? It’s apparent that the possibility for Hepatotoxicity is there, but for the smart steroid user this is nearly an impossible task.
Another study done in 1999, attempted to show the acute and chronic effects of stanozolol on the liver. In acute treatments of stanozolol, dosages not mentioned, both cytochrome P456 and b5 (microsomal enzymes) levels dropped after 48 hours, and then at 72 hours, levels significant increased. On the other hand, with chronic treatments, time or dosage not mentioned, these microsomal enzymes showed a decrease in levels. Researchers showed that both acute and chronic treatments resulted in "slight to moderate inflammatory or degenerative lesions in centrilobular hepatocytes", but the authors did not note true Hepatotoxicity.
How about we look at the other side of the story, the good studies. For instance, in a 1999 study, which looked at the effects of an 8-week cycle of 17 alpha-alkylated steroids. The researchers used fluoxymesterone, methylandrostanolone, or stanozolol on rats at 2mg/kg-body weight, five times a week for 8 weeks. That's 182mg per dosage, for a 200lb man, or 910mg per week. Half of the rats were sedentary and the other were trained on a treadmill.
Levels of NADH-cytochrome c reductase, succinate cytochrome c reductase, and cytochrome oxidase (showing liver activity), increased in the steroid-administered rats, while citrate synthase showed no change. Comparatively, in vitro, the "cytochrome oxidase and citrate synthase activities were insensitive to the anabolic steroids, whereas NADH-cytochrome c reductase and succinate cytochrome c reductase activities were partly inhibited."
Furthermore, in vivo, each rat had liver enzyme levels that were within normal range. From this, the researchers determined that the steroid-administered rats, trained or sedentary, did not show "...classical serum indicators of hepatic function". Extrapolating this, 910mg a week for 8 weeks could potentially have little to no effect on the liver in humans.
As for human studies, in 1999 researchers tried to prove that the Hepatotoxicity of steroids is overstated. In this study, 15 of the partints were bodybuilders using self-administered steroid dosages and 10 were non-steroid bodybuilders. Serum data was compared to 49 patients with viral hepatitis, and 592 exercising and non-exercising medical students. [
All of the bodybuilders showed increases in aspartate aminotransferase (AST), alanine aminotransferase (ALT) and creatine kinase (CK) while gamma-glutamyltranspeptidase (GGT) levels were in the normal range. In comparison, hepatitis patients showed increased ALT, AST, and GGT levels while the control exercising medical students showed increased CK levels. From this, the researchers suggested that it is the correlation between AST, ALT and GGT that shows true liver dysfunction. Keep in mind, we can only guess that the 15 steroid users were using 17 alpha-alkylated steroids, and we do not know what the dosages that were used., but common sense tells us the results are likely relevant.
Last but not least, a simple study done in 1996, showed the long term benefits after taking a 3 month break from steroids. 16 bodybuilders using steroids were compared to 12 bodybuilders that were not. After a three-month drug withdrawal, the researchers showed that levels of liver enzymes, types not mentioned, returned to the same as the non users. Again the dosages are left to the reader’s imagination and we can only guess that the 16 steroid users were using 17 alpha-alkylated steroids.
So what can we conclude from all of this? First off, 17 alpha-alkylated steroids are hepatotoxic in high dosages taken for a long time. On the other hand, short cycles and small dosages appear to be perfectly safe. I suggest that maximum dosages should be 50mg to 90mg per day. They should be cycled for perhaps 8 weeks at a time, and if needed a 3-month break from them should be used. Using the above-mentioned techniques, your liver can be healthy for a long time. Simply put, the hysteria surrounding “Hepatoxic” steroids, is based mainly on folk lore.
 Lancet 1979 Nov 24;2(8152):1120-3, Hepatic angiosarcoma associated with androgenic-anabolic steroids. Falk H, Thomas LB, Popper H, Ishak KG.
 J Gastroenterol 2000;35(7):557-62, Multiple hepatic adenomas caused by long-term administration of androgenic steroids for aplastic anemia in association with familial adenomatous polyposis. Nakao A, Sakagami K, Nakata Y, Komazawa K, Amimoto T, Nakashima K, Isozaki H, Takakura N, Tanaka N.
 J Pharmacol Toxicol Methods 1995 Aug;33(4):187-95, Toxic effects of anabolic-androgenic steroids in primary rat hepatic cell cultures. Welder AA, Robertson JW, Melchert RB.
 Arch Toxicol 1999 Nov;73(8-9):465-72, Evaluation of acute and chronic hepatotoxic effects exerted by anabolic-androgenic steroid stanozolol in adult male rats. Boada LD, Zumbado M, Torres S, Lopez A, Diaz-Chico BN, Cabrera JJ, Luzardo OP.
 Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1999 Feb;31(2):243-50, Rat liver lysosomal and mitochondrial activities are modified by anabolic-androgenic steroids. Molano F, Saborido A, Delgado J, Moran M, Megias A.
 Clin J Sport Med 1999 Jan;9(1):34-9, Anabolic steroid-induced Hepatotoxicity: is it overstated? erman RD, Pertusi RM, Zachariah NY, Dufour DR, McConathy WJ.
 Int J Sports Med 1996 Aug;17(6):429-33, Body composition, cardiovascular risk factors and liver function in long-term androgenic-anabolic steroids using bodybuilders three months after drug withdrawal. Hartgens F, Kuipers H, Wijnen JA, Keizer HA.
Eat clean, piss dirty
07-29-2010, 02:46 PM
The way I see it, your liver can handle a certain load indefinitely. Beyond that load, it'll start to slowly get overworked and will eventually get problems. But everybody's liver has a different strength; a different load it can handle indefinitely. Let's say one person can run 50mg of dbol almost indefinitely because his liver can process that much everyday... then there is another person who can only handle 10mg for months at a time, and if he does 50mg he may get liver problems after say 6 weeks.
There are lots of people on highly liver-taxing RX drugs that stay on them for years. Your liver can handle a certain amount indefinitely... like i said beyond that point though and enzymes will climb and climb until you hit liver failure.
At least this is how I understand it.
Some people have run Dbol for 20+ weeks that i've read about, i believe 6 months is possible if the liver can handle that load. But I think most people are going to get their livers ****ed in the ass if they try to do the same thing.
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07-29-2010, 04:26 PM
Edwitt, I agree with almost everything you said here (setting aside Roy Harper's personal interpretation of several studies for the moment). Very few people are going to cause any significant liver damage from a sensible 4- or even 6-week run of methylated AAS. However, some may. Further, this is not the same thing as saying 20 mg of dbol is virtually non-toxic, which is what caused my long response in the first place.
This is the same thing I have been saying on this and othere boards for years. It seems everyone either overstates the hepatotoxicity of these compounds, or the "backlash" camp, who seem bent on understating it, claiming the liver is so magical, it's almost impossible to damage it severely with 17a AAS.
Both sides are wrong, and I'm merely trying to present the sensible middle ground.
07-29-2010, 04:28 PM
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