AAS and the Adrenal Gland (Seth Roberts' views requested)

[Sub7]

A poster here had asked how long one should wait between cycles, and I recall Seth Roberts responding that it depends on when the adrenal function will return to normal following a cycle. Unfortunately I cannot find the thread and may be slightly misquoting him, though I think this is pretty much what he said even if not verbatim.

Can Seth and others please comment more on this? The normalization of Adrenal Functions following cessation of AAS is something people almost never talk about on this board. Everyone is focusing on returning testical function back to normal, but the adrenal axis is perhaps fully ignored. Thus, any input would be highly welcome. What aspect of adrenal function is disturbed with AAS? Is it cortisol production? What can be done to return it back to normal as fast as possible...?

 

[sethroberts]

A poster here had asked how long one should wait between cycles, and I recall Seth Roberts responding that it depends on when the adrenal function will return to normal following a cycle. Unfortunately I cannot find the thread and may be slightly misquoting him, though I think this is pretty much what he said even if not verbatim.

Can Seth and others please comment more on this? The normalization of Adrenal Functions following cessation of AAS is something people almost never talk about on this board. Everyone is focusing on returning testical function back to normal, but the adrenal axis is perhaps fully ignored. Thus, any input would be highly welcome. What aspect of adrenal function is disturbed with AAS? Is it cortisol production? What can be done to return it back to normal as fast as possible...?

I don't think anyone can give you a definitive answer on this. Some AAS affect adrenal function (cortisol production mainly but could also be DHEA as well as altered mineralocortiocid functions, either higher or lower depending on the point of disruption) more severely than others not to mention doses and duration. This is one of the reasons that I do not advocate megadosing because I feel that the adrenal suppression tends to be higher with higher doses. Lower doses, even for a longer duration are likely more forgiving in this regard. Superdrol, for example seems to be particularly disruptive and I am guessing that recovery can take quite some time.

 

[jbryand101b]

so what he is saying is, blood work. pre, post, and post post.























































i think.

 

[Sub7]

I don't think anyone can give you a definitive answer on this. Some AAS affect adrenal function (cortisol production mainly but could also be DHEA as well as altered mineralocortiocid functions, either higher or lower depending on the point of disruption) more severely than others not to mention doses and duration. This is one of the reasons that I do not advocate megadosing because I feel that the adrenal suppression tends to be higher with higher doses. Lower doses, even for a longer duration are likely more forgiving in this regard. Superdrol, for example seems to be particularly disruptive and I am guessing that recovery can take quite some time.

Excellent, from the man himself...
Is there anything at all that you suggest people do (in addition to not megadosing). I know that it is very hard to make blanket statements, because these drugs could affect people to differently, but anything at all that applies in general?
Would the so-called adaptogens be an option? Supposedly they can increase outputs of certain hormones/neurotransmitters if they are low and decrease them if they are high, thus always bringing an individual closer to a balance (though I doubt they often work as such)...

To JBR...:
I agree blood work is always good, but in reality it is so hard to test for everything. Things like cortisol are not even easy to test for from the blood and require 24 hour urine collection...

 

[jbryand101b]

not from the research studies i've read they get it from the blood pretty easily.

not trying to start an argument, just saying...

 

[Sub7]

Of course you will read it from a blood sample easily. The trouble is that cortisol fluctuates a huge amount during the day; typically the morning readings are 300% of early afternoon readings. Thus, a single reading will give you very little information. That is the reason cortisol is usually measured in 24 hour urine collection tests. Research studies that aim to look at a short-term change at serum cortisol will do fine with a single reading (you give the person an injection of a drug and take their blood right away). But for a more complete assessment, a 24 hour reading is usually needed.

 

[Sub7]

Seth (and Other Members),

What would you say about the potential of different DS/PHs to elevate red blood cell count? Is Superdrol again the most potent in this regard, and thus most likely to lead to polycythemia? (and what PH is safest in this regard) Also, anything that can be done to reduce the chance of polycythemia during aas use?

Thanks a ton for the valuable input...

Sub

 

[sethroberts]

Excellent, from the man himself...
Is there anything at all that you suggest people do (in addition to not megadosing). I know that it is very hard to make blanket statements, because these drugs could affect people to differently, but anything at all that applies in general?
Would the so-called adaptogens be an option? Supposedly they can increase outputs of certain hormones/neurotransmitters if they are low and decrease them if they are high, thus always bringing an individual closer to a balance (though I doubt they often work as such)...

To JBR...:
I agree blood work is always good, but in reality it is so hard to test for everything. Things like cortisol are not even easy to test for from the blood and require 24 hour urine collection...

Your body does attempt to correct itself which is part of the probem. Once you go off, there is rebound. AAS can alter adrenal function at several points (inhibition of 11-beta hydroxylase, inhibition of 21 hydroxylase, blockade of glucocorticoid receptor, competition at common HRE's, alteration in CBG etc..) so there definitely is no blanket statement. For example, inhibitng the 11-beta hydroxyalse enzyme will resultin lower cortisol levels, higher deoxycorticosterone and higher ACTH levels. when the drug is stopped, these high ACTH levels will cause a rebound in cortisol levels. Blockade of the glucocorticoid receptor on the other hand will result in higher ACTH and cortisol levels. Cortisol is a very tightly regulated hormone with multiple regulatory points making intervention an iffy prospect.

 

[sethroberts]

Seth (and Other Members),

What would you say about the potential of different DS/PHs to elevate red blood cell count? Is Superdrol again the most potent in this regard, and thus most likely to lead to polycythemia? (and what PH is safest in this regard) Also, anything that can be done to reduce the chance of polycythemia during aas use?

Thanks a ton for the valuable input...

Sub

There is no research available on the DS's so it is not possible to say. There is a lot of brotelligence out there on whis AAS elevate RBC's the most. Testosterone itself elicits an increase (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2266950/?tool=pubmed) as does nandrolone (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10649731).

This study actually showed nandrolone to be the most potent (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4732322) while this paper says DHT (http://bloodjournal.hematologylibrary.org/cgi/reprint/43/1/39).

In any cas, it appears that most, if not all AAS elicit some positive response on red blood cell production. The comparative evidence is relatively thin so the bros who state emphatically that equipoise or anadrol or "insert steroid here" is the best at reasing red blood cells are just parroting good old bro-lore. All of that being said, it is likely that the DS/PH increase red blood cell to some extent but without actual data, noone can say which is better or worse. Not much that can be done about it since it appears to be a direct effect of androgens. Of course staying hydrated is important to help keep hematocrit from getting to high.

 

[Sub7]

Thank you very very much

 

[citystreets]

After i came off Epi years ago I feel my body never set back to its normal, maybe this is why. I always maintained a 8-10% bf no matter how many calories i took in, but after my epi cycle my body had no problem getting to 12-14%bf and staying there. Now I maintain that bf and actualy have to fight to get down to 10% !!

 

[citystreets]

I could never figure it out, i was thinking maybe insulin sensitivity (which im curious about but thats another thread) I was sure it changed my metabolism some how.

 

[Sub7]

citystreets,

Did you lose appetite also since Epi?
How about blood pressure, is it up?

 

[jbryand101b]

this was an informative thread.

 

[citystreets]

no my appetite sky rocketed and i was taking in heavy cals. My bp was okay.

 

[Sub7]

Seth,

I am not going to be able to quote studies as I could not find them upon a search -though I will try and find them one more time- but I do recall that the use of hydrocortisone for up to 10 days or so does not suppress endogenous production and patients will have normal levels upon coming off. If we extrapolate these results, would they indicate that 2 week mini cycles may provide fruitful? Are you in general in favor of mini cycles? If so a specific compound or time period?

 

[sethroberts]

Seth,

I am not going to be able to quote studies as I could not find them upon a search -though I will try and find them one more time- but I do recall that the use of hydrocortisone for up to 10 days or so does not suppress endogenous production and patients will have normal levels upon coming off. If we extrapolate these results, would they indicate that 2 week mini cycles may provide fruitful? Are you in general in favor of mini cycles? If so a specific compound or time period?

I am opposed to short cycles because lean tissue takes time to build. You can add on some quick water weight in 2 weeks but very little actual muscle. In reality you are probably looking at a pound per week (give or take a little) of lean tissue gain.

 

[Sub7]

But with regards to adrenal disruption would you tend to think that adrenals recover very fast (or in some cases almost instantly) from 1-2 week disruptions?

Sub
PS: I disagree with you about the 1 pound per week of muscle gain. Especially if you are regaining muscle which you previously held but lost, you can gain several pounds of pure muscle per week IMO. But even brand new muscle can be built at a rate surpassing a pound per week in my opinion. Hard for sure, but I am personally convinced that one can definitively build far more than a pound a week. I have seen several guys gain 15 pounds in 4 weeks cycles (and not extreme cycles either; some garden variety PH/DS). Of course some of it was water + fat. But surely not 11 pounds was; I am absolutely convinced of that as I saw results with my own eyes many many times. However, I do see where you are coming from and why -as a rational person- you would hold the belief that you do.

 

[TheDarkHalf]

subbed. very informative.

 

[sethroberts]

But with regards to adrenal disruption would you tend to think that adrenals recover very fast (or in some cases almost instantly) from 1-2 week disruptions?

Sub
PS: I disagree with you about the 1 pound per week of muscle gain. Especially if you are regaining muscle which you previously held but lost, you can gain several pounds of pure muscle per week IMO. But even brand new muscle can be built at a rate surpassing a pound per week in my opinion. Hard for sure, but I am personally convinced that one can definitively build far more than a pound a week. I have seen several guys gain 15 pounds in 4 weeks cycles (and not extreme cycles either; some garden variety PH/DS). Of course some of it was water + fat. But surely not 11 pounds was; I am absolutely convinced of that as I saw results with my own eyes many many times. However, I do see where you are coming from and why -as a rational person- you would hold the belief that you do.

You are confusing lean tissue gains with scale weight. You can easily increase scale weight by 20 pounds during an 8 weight cycle but study after study has demonstrated a rate of gain or lean mass that maxes at 1 pound per week but I allow for a little wiggle room to 1.5 or maybe 2 pounds per week allowing for optimal nutrition.

Anyway, to your first question, it would depend again on the point of disruption. Receptor antagonism is probably more forgiving that enzyme disruption.