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Tamoxifen Citrate- should we be taking more?

hypo

hypo

Board Supporter
I found this page on nolva...

Invalid Link Removed

And it states that a 20mg nolva pill actually contains 30.4mg on nolva, which then converts to a different chemical. Therefore, if a bodybuilder took 40mg of nolva pills, he would actually be ingesting 60.8mgs of tamoxifen citrate. My question is, do the liquid nolvas available work the same way, in that a 20mg/ml product actually contains 30.4mgs of nolva? If not, should we actually be taking 60mgs of liquid nolva to get the effect of 40mgs of pills?
 
The actual part of the tamoxifen citrate molecule that is active in estrogen blocking is the tamoxifen. I believe that the citrate is added to both stabilize the tamoxifen and act as buffer for it in the stomach, but I'm not positive. I'm pretty confident that all of the liquid research products out are standardized to 20 mg/mL of tamoxifen citrate, not pure tamoxifen. So, that would mean that your logic in saying that we should be taking 60 mg. of the tamoxifen citrate to get 40 mg. of the tamoxifen is correct!

I'd never thought of it this way, but I'm not sure whether or not the liquid research companies have taken in this into consideration. I'll PM this is custom and see what his repsonse is.

Nice find hypo.
 
Thank You :) Perhaps if this is true upping the dosage would help a little to hold on to gains made by many of the popular PHs that work great but don't retain very well, since most of the people on this board use liquid products for PCT.
 
It seems the common dose is to start out with 40 mg. I think starting the first week like 80, 80, 60, 60, 40 ... could be beneficial. Just to give more of a jumpstart. Who knows?
 
Read this!
It is the Tamoxifen that we are using not the Citrate of that. 61mg in liquid form should yeild approximately 40 mgs of tamoxifen. Just multiply the dosage that is desired by 1.52 and that will give you the required liquid form needed if the purity is pretty near that of the prescribed type.

note that a 10mg tab contains 15.2 mg of Tamoxifen Citrate which converts to 10 mg of tamoxifen and that a 20mg tab contains 30.4 and converts to 20.

Also note that there was no indication that doses greater then 20mg were any more effective. Keep in mind that these are 5 yr studies and for treatment of breast cancer, not for the recreational uses we are needing it for.

It also interesting that they noted that tamoxifen reduces letro concentrations by 37% when co administered.

db
 

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All i know is one my first m1t cycle i did the 40 mg for a week then moved down to 20mg a day and i lost tons of gains...this time im not taking chances...80 mg for first week then 60 one week and 40 the rest of the way..its not like it will kill me....haha
 
hypo said:
I found this page on nolva...

Invalid Link Removed

And it states that a 20mg nolva pill actually contains 30.4mg on nolva, which then converts to a different chemical. Therefore, if a bodybuilder took 40mg of nolva pills, he would actually be ingesting 60.8mgs of tamoxifen citrate. My question is, do the liquid nolvas available work the same way, in that a 20mg/ml product actually contains 30.4mgs of nolva? If not, should we actually be taking 60mgs of liquid nolva to get the effect of 40mgs of pills?
Click to expand...

Your math is correct. My only question is when and how was the popular dosage regimen devised?

If it was devised by BBers who were originally using the tablets, then when using the liquid one would have to adjust upwards as you suggest.

Greenguy
 
well, as tamoxifen citrate is for female cancer patients, i dont believe the dosage regimen was devised with the bodybuilder in mind...and i'm pretty sure when the research companies measure out the gram or whatever of tamoxifen citrate to put into the solution, they do not take into account that it takes 60.8mg of tamoxifen citrate to get 40mg of the actual tamoxifen that we want. now, if the supplier used crushed pills to make the liquid nolva, there wouldnt be a problem, but i'm pretty sure the suppliers are buying the powder in bulk, measuring out a gram and putting it in solution...so they are measuring out the weight of the tamoxifen plus the citrate...
 
I can tell you guys that for my PCT after this M1T cycle I decided to do Nolva at 80mg a day for the first week and I have not lost weight or size as of yet.
My last cycle where I did 40-40-20-10 I had lost about a pound by now. Seems that the 80mg works, for me at least.
Just my experience.
 
Guess I'll be upping my dosages then. Are there any adverse effects to using too much nolva? If so, what is the mg threshold?
 
ersatz said:
He answered it in another thread. Yup it's 20mgs of tamoxifen citrate so double up on your dosages.
Click to expand...
Actually, it's roughly 1.5x your normal dosage. If you take 60mg of liquid tamoxifen citrate, you get just barely over 40mg of tamoxifen.
 
Longdog said:
Actually, it's roughly 1.5x your normal dosage. If you take 60mg of liquid tamoxifen citrate, you get just barely over 40mg of tamoxifen.
Click to expand...
Seems as though a great majority including me got theirs from cnw. In this case if my pct of M1T/4AD with tamoxifen citrate was:

Week 1 - 40
Week 2 - 40
Week 3 - 30
Week 4 - 20

I would multiply my dosage by roughly 1.5?
 
raylewis said:
Seems as though a great majority including me got theirs from cnw. In this case if my pct of M1T/4AD with tamoxifen citrate was:

Week 1 - 40
Week 2 - 40
Week 3 - 30
Week 4 - 20

I would multiply my dosage by roughly 1.5?
Click to expand...
That is correct so it would break down to:

Week 1 - 60mg or 3ml/day
Week 2 - 60mg or 3ml/day
Week 3 - 45mg or 2.25ml/day
Week 4 - 30mg or 1.5ml/day
 
This is my 1st PH cycle and I do have my tamoxifen citrate in hand. Thanks to all for breaking down this info.

I'd like to hear from anyone that's done multiple cycles that have taken the traditional #'s post cycle and then upped their dose of tamoxifen citrate the 2nd time around. If all things being equal, was pct any different? A better hold on lean body mass?

This thread may be too new for anyone to up the dose based on the above info but I did read someone who upped their pct dose 1st week up to 80 and kept good gains.
 
Well,
I have to say, this is quite a discovery hypo.

My nolva pills only mention the tamoxifen. So i assume the citrate is an inactive ingredient.

We have been taking less nolva than we thought.... All of us!!!!

Everybody give hypo some props! Do it now!
 
So does anyone know what the actual tamoxifen/citrate ratio is in the liquid products?

The reason i ask is because the powder used in the liquid products may differ in ratio compared to the pills.

Maybe lion could get those numbers so we all know what we are taking.

Where is that pimp?
 
Billy the kid said:
So does anyone know what the actual tamoxifen/citrate ratio is in the liquid products?

The reason i ask is because the powder used in the liquid products may differ in ratio compared to the pills.

Maybe lion could get those numbers so we all know what we are taking.

Where is that pimp?
Click to expand...
Okay, let me try to clarify things. Each 10 mg tablet contains 15.2 mg of tamoxifen citrate thus 5.2mg is the citrate thus 10/15.2=66% is tamoxifen and 5.2/15.2=34% is the citrate. Thus if you want 40mg of tamoxifen you need to essential multiply the dose by !.5 as eluded to earlier. So at a potency of say 20mg/ml only 13.2mg is tamox. The simplest way to figure out the effective dose is to determine the amount of tamox you want say 60mg. Divide this by the potency say 20mg/ml and multiply the result by 1.5 .
So say you bought some from cnw this would be the dosage breakdown:

40 mg of tamox = 3ml of solution
60mg = 4.5ml
80mg = 6 ml
20mg = 1.5ml
10mg = .75ml
 
ersatz said:
Okay, let me try to clarify things. Each 10 mg tablet contains 15.2 mg of tamoxifen citrate thus 5.2mg is the citrate thus 10/15.2=66% is tamoxifen and 5.2/15.2=34% is the citrate. Thus if you want 40mg of tamoxifen you need to essential multiply the dose by !.5 as eluded to earlier. So at a potency of say 20mg/ml only 13.2mg is tamox. The simplest way to figure out the effective dose is to determine the amount of tamox you want say 60mg. Divide this by the potency say 20mg/ml and multiply the result by 1.5 .
So say you bought some from cnw this would be the dosage breakdown:

40 mg of tamox = 3ml of solution
60mg = 4.5ml
80mg = 6 ml
20mg = 1.5ml
10mg = .75ml
Click to expand...
Do you know, for a fact, that the powder he uses is the same ratio as the pills?
 
So for a 4 week pct need 2 bottle

week 1-2 60mg=40mg of tamoxifen=3ml a day for 15days=a total of 45ml
week 2-3 30mg=20mg of tamoxifen=1.5ml a day for 15days=a total of 22.5ml
So u will have 32.5ml left over for later>>>>>>>
 
If the tamoxifen worked at the dosage we have all come to know,then whyis there a need to raise the dosage.
regardless of the breakdown in %'s the dosage we all have been using seems to work for all and was recommended by all then why mess with it.
You know the old saying ( if anit broke don't fix it)
just food for thought
 
TopFuel said:
If the tamoxifen worked at the dosage we have all come to know,then whyis there a need to raise the dosage.
regardless of the breakdown in %'s the dosage we all have been using seems to work for all and was recommended by all then why mess with it.
You know the old saying ( if anit broke don't fix it)
just food for thought
Click to expand...
Because we may be short changing ourselves. If we up the dosages, we may get better results.

We have all been taking the recommedned dosage, which contains less tamoxifen than the dosage we get from the pills. Which is what the dosages are based on to begin with.
 
I think the 40mg "standard dosage" was derived mostly on steroid boards, but this was in regards to the actual pharmecutical nolvadex orals. If someone wanted the same effect as taking the genuine orals (which you should) you would need to increase the liquid dose to compensate for the somewhat misleading advertised oral dose.

The 40mg regimen was originally, I believe, for AAS. The new question should be: Are these new methylated prohormones and steroids like M1T strong enough to warrant the same PCT dosages as AAS? Personally, I believe so. I think the dosage also depends on the individual much like the actual PH dose. I'm going to up my dosages for this PCT though to see if it's better than last time.
 
Too much of anything can be bad.
Nolvadex has many possible side effects and I would imagine that as the dosage increases as do the side effects.

Respect nolvadex, it is a powerful drug.
 
How about the issue of the liquid version being less dosage wise to the pill form? In fact, how many of you that have gone through PCT have actually tried the higher doses talked about here?
 
Well, I'm through my first week. 80mgs the first three days then 60 the other four. Which equates to roughly 50 and 40 mgs respectively. I feel fine and haven't lost any weight and strength is about the same. Lost about 5 pounds on major lifts.
 
I deleted my earlier post which some of you might have seen in the emails. I had been at work and hadn't looked at the link in the first post thoroughly enough. On getting home and revisiting the topic, I see that I was wrong.

So my apologies to everyone.

/karp
 
I re-read this thread and there seems to be 2 answers. Can we clarify which is correct?


ersatz said:
That is correct so it would break down to:

Week 1 - 60mg or 3ml/day
Week 2 - 60mg or 3ml/day
Week 3 - 45mg or 2.25ml/day
Week 4 - 30mg or 1.5ml/day
Click to expand...

ersatz said:
Okay, let me try to clarify things. Each 10 mg tablet contains 15.2 mg of tamoxifen citrate thus 5.2mg is the citrate thus 10/15.2=66% is tamoxifen and 5.2/15.2=34% is the citrate. Thus if you want 40mg of tamoxifen you need to essential multiply the dose by !.5 as eluded to earlier. So at a potency of say 20mg/ml only 13.2mg is tamox. The simplest way to figure out the effective dose is to determine the amount of tamox you want say 60mg. Divide this by the potency say 20mg/ml and multiply the result by 1.5 .
So say you bought some from cnw this would be the dosage breakdown:

40 mg of tamox = 3ml of solution
60mg = 4.5ml
80mg = 6 ml
20mg = 1.5ml
10mg = .75ml
Click to expand...
 
Ray Lewis, I believe what you quoted was the old method of dosing (3ml = 60mg) compared to the newer information showing that to get the full 60mg of tamoxifen, you'd need to take 1.5x MORE, which would be 4.5 ml.

Does that make sense how I worded it?
 
Thanks, I will adjust my pct by the numbers below.

40 mg of tamox = 3ml of solution
60mg = 4.5ml
80mg = 6 ml
20mg = 1.5ml
10mg = .75ml

for

Week 1 - 60mg
Week 2 - 60mg
Week 3 - 45mg
Week 4 - 30mg
 
raylewis said:
Thanks, I will adjust my pct by the numbers below.

40 mg of tamox = 3ml of solution
60mg = 4.5ml
80mg = 6 ml
20mg = 1.5ml
10mg = .75ml

for

Week 1 - 60mg
Week 2 - 60mg
Week 3 - 45mg
Week 4 - 30mg
Click to expand...

Yep, looks good. Good luck!
 
ersatz said:
Week 1 - 60mg or 3ml/day
Week 2 - 60mg or 3ml/day
Week 3 - 45mg or 2.25ml/day
Week 4 - 30mg or 1.5ml/day
Click to expand...
Another question (sorry for so many), should I be taking these doses in 1 shot or halfing the dose and taking morning and evening or should I just take it in 1 shot per day each morning?
 
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