epi...causes or cures gyno..exp only please

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    epi...causes or cures gyno..exp only please


    ok i have a mild case of gyno from some acl tren...first for all for the parrots i have read all the threads and have done my research !!! i did what i was sopposed to do and it still came!! will epi help with this ,and if so ,at what dose, and for how long? please only respond if you know what ur talking about!!!!! i dont think a whole thread of parrot crap will help me!!( sorry for the rude intro) if this route has worked or made it worse please let me know!!!!!

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    it certainly isn't going to help it. but I don't believe it will do much to aggravate it either.
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    so you are saying epi in your case did not help or hinder gyno
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcssassin View Post
    so you are saying epi in your case did not help or hinder gyno
    Yeah, I think the whole it helps gyno thing was just marketing hype. I have however used it very effectively on a cut, dropping 22lbs while gaining some definitive muscle.
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    fair enuf so no help yet no aggravation with the gyno... thanks man i would love to hear more peoples dealings with the stuff
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    epi is "said" to lower estrogen, but tren gyno is not from estrogen, it's prolactin or progesterone related so epi shouldn't help with that as far as i know
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    Hmm, as far as I know ALL gyno is from estrogen:
    "Gynecomastia results from an altered estrogen-androgen balance, in favor of estrogen, or from increased breast sensitivity to a normal circulating estrogen level.3 The imbalance is between the stimulatory effect of estrogen and the inhibitory effect of androgen. Estrogens induce ductal epithelial hyperplasia, ductal elongation and branching, proliferation of the periductal fibroblasts, and an increase in vascularity. The histologic picture is similar in male and female breast tissue after exposure to estrogen.4

    Estrogen production in males results mainly from the peripheral conversion of androgens (testosterone and androstenedione) — through the action of the enzyme aromatase, mainly in muscle, skin, and adipose tissue — to estradiol and estrone."

    This prolactin/progestrin gyno is essentially the same thing as estrogen gyno just given a different name due to bodybuilders getting it from certain compounds (Like tren)
    Controlling prolactin/progesterone with vitamin B5/Dopamine-agonists/Cabergoline can help alleviate prolactin sides (Leaky nips) but contolling estrogen is what helps with gyno..

    Correct me if i'm wrong- I'm open to criticism on this, but I work in the medical field and although I'm not the be all end all, gynocomastia cannot be obtained without an imbalance in estrogen-- in that I am certain.

    Also- I have used Epi in low doses (20mg) for about 3 weeks and it removed the sensitivity and lump size of my gyno. Unfortunately I ran another cycle two months ago and it is back so I plan on running more Epi to help alleviate this along with nolva..
    Search some studes: Epi's compound is used in Japan for the same reasons Nolva is (Breast Cancer reduction etc)
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    my understanding was if you control estrgen you control the other
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    Quote Originally Posted by MPFit View Post
    Hmm, as far as I know ALL gyno is from estrogen:
    "Gynecomastia results from an altered estrogen-androgen balance, in favor of estrogen, or from increased breast sensitivity to a normal circulating estrogen level.3 The imbalance is between the stimulatory effect of estrogen and the inhibitory effect of androgen. Estrogens induce ductal epithelial hyperplasia, ductal elongation and branching, proliferation of the periductal fibroblasts, and an increase in vascularity. The histologic picture is similar in male and female breast tissue after exposure to estrogen.4

    Estrogen production in males results mainly from the peripheral conversion of androgens (testosterone and androstenedione) — through the action of the enzyme aromatase, mainly in muscle, skin, and adipose tissue — to estradiol and estrone."

    This prolactin/progestrin gyno is essentially the same thing as estrogen gyno just given a different name due to bodybuilders getting it from certain compounds (Like tren)
    Controlling prolactin/progesterone with vitamin B5/Dopamine-agonists/Cabergoline can help alleviate prolactin sides (Leaky nips) but contolling estrogen is what helps with gyno..

    Correct me if i'm wrong- I'm open to criticism on this, but I work in the medical field and although I'm not the be all end all, gynocomastia cannot be obtained without an imbalance in estrogen-- in that I am certain.

    Also- I have used Epi in low doses (20mg) for about 3 weeks and it removed the sensitivity and lump size of my gyno. Unfortunately I ran another cycle two months ago and it is back so I plan on running more Epi to help alleviate this along with nolva..
    Search some studes: Epi's compound is used in Japan for the same reasons Nolva is (Breast Cancer reduction etc)
    I think you would be better off using an aromatase inhibitor like Aromasin or Letrozole to dissipate that lump, not a steroid.
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    this is gonna aggrivate your gyno if its from acl tren.. i promise you.. epi is not kind on already high prolactin levels...
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    well now im confused so were saying stay away?
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    I ran epi at the finish of a cycle with nandrolone and was able to ratchet back down my adex dose by half. That said, I do not think that epi, masteron, or proviron will help nearly as much as needed with most gyno situations.
    Adex is your best bet, but aromasin, or letro will help too.
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    i could be wrong, but letro or arom are not the answer to tren gyno, and nolva is not the pct for tren, the pct of choice is clomid, and instead of something like letro, caber is the way to go for prolactin induced gyno
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    Please, I hate this reasoning of running a steroid to try and resolve a problem that resulted from a steroid. It's just not sound thinking. Sure some get away with stuff like that, but some people smoke their whole life and don't get cancer. Epi does not cause or cure gyno in and of itself. Sure, the likely hood of gaining gyno from epi is low, but can happen as in the form of estrogen rebound. Your best bet truthfully is to go with an AI like Letro.

    Actually... Gotti has a really good point in mentioning caber
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    From personal experience, before Epi/Havoc i had a mild case of gyno. While on cycle I didn't notice any change. Once i finished pct, my nips started itching and my gyno got WORSE! estrogen rebound. I did a proper pct (nolva 40/30/20/10) but I still got gyno. I believe I had high prolactin levels. So like gotti said if you have high prolactin levels already any steroid is probably going to make it worse. I've ordered some letro and caber and plan to be running those 2 to get rid of my gyno. Starve the body of estrogen with letro and reduce prolactin levels to normal should probably give me some results, I hope. Otherwise surgery is my last resort.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdhil90 View Post
    From personal experience, before Epi/Havoc i had a mild case of gyno. While on cycle I didn't notice any change. Once i finished pct, my nips started itching and my gyno got WORSE! estrogen rebound. I did a proper pct (nolva 40/30/20/10) but I still got gyno. I believe I had high prolactin levels. So like gotti said if you have high prolactin levels already any steroid is probably going to make it worse.
    Not always true. Winny comes to mind to help keep prolactin down. Nolva might not have helped if you ran a 19-nor.

    Quote Originally Posted by jdhil90 View Post
    I've ordered some letro and caber and plan to be running those 2 to get rid of my gyno. Starve the body of estrogen with letro and reduce prolactin levels to normal should probably give me some results, I hope. Otherwise surgery is my last resort.
    Caber really only helps with leaking nips and limp d**ks IMO.

    Back to the OP - Good luck with what ever you decide!
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    Holy hell, there is a ****load of innacurate information in this thread.


    Ok, the issue here is that nobody in this thread knows the difference between the 2 progestin hormones, Progesterone and prolactin.
    Progesterone can cause gyno. Prolactin only causes leaky nipples, further hpta suppression, and libido issues.

    Quote Originally Posted by manofbushido View Post
    Not always true. Winny comes to mind to help keep prolactin down. Nolva might not have helped if you ran a 19-nor.

    Caber really only helps with leaking nips and limp d**ks IMO.
    Winstrol blocks Progesterone at the receptor, dopamine agonists (caber, bromo, prami) lower prolactin secretion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Young Gotti View Post
    i could be wrong, but letro or arom are not the answer to tren gyno, and nolva is not the pct for tren, the pct of choice is clomid, and instead of something like letro, caber is the way to go for prolactin induced gyno
    There is no such thing as prolactin induced gyno.
    And letro would still help, because progestin hormones require at least some estrogen to function.

    Quote Originally Posted by manofbushido View Post
    I ran epi at the finish of a cycle with nandrolone and was able to ratchet back down my adex dose by half. That said, I do not think that epi, masteron, or proviron will help nearly as much as needed with most gyno situations.
    Adex is your best bet, but aromasin, or letro will help too.
    Letro is more powerful than either Aromasin or Adex. It wipes out virtually all estrogen, by inhibiting type I and type II aromatase enzymes. Adex only works on type II, and Aromasin gently lowers both.

    Quote Originally Posted by MPFit View Post
    Hmm, as far as I know ALL gyno is from estrogen:
    "Gynecomastia

    Search some studes: Epi's compound is used in Japan for the same reasons Nolva is (Breast Cancer reduction etc)
    This is false for all the reasons I mentioned above.
    Also, the thing about the Japanese using Epi to treat breast cancer is BS, since they actually used the non-methyl version. Adding a methyl group (or two) completely changes a compound's properties (think Dbol vs EQ).
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    OP, Epi will likely temporarily decrease the size of your gyno because, like all 5a-reduced compounds, it lowers circulating estrogen. However, it won't completely starve the breast tissue of estrogen (and reverse the gyno) like Letro or Raloxifene might.
    Also, if you don't do a PROPER PCT (with a real SERM), your gyno could easily get worse due to an androgen:estrogen imbalance.
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    I didn't see where you stated that gyno is not always from estrogen..
    Your saying a progesterone can cause it because it tampers with estrogen- which further validates my point. Not sure where your correction for me is, I'd like to though.

    Also, I personally don't disregard the Japanese studies-- you may decide to but for me something like a 96% reduction rate is too hard to ignore in my opinion-- methylated or not (and is the reason I used Epi to see if it reduced my gyno).
    Again I'm not trying to persuade you or dispute your logic b/c it is a legit reason not to trust Epi, but I ran it to combat gyno, it worked for me, and I find my experience is worth more than others opinions (again, not to bash your experience/opinion)

    That being said I've never run Tren/Winny/ and progesterone for that matter. SD, PP, Epi, Hdrol, and 1test are my only experiences.
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    gyno isn't caused from one or two reasons. It is caused from multiple hormone imbalances. not just androgens/estrogen.
    it will also include hormones like progestin, prolacting, hgh, igf, etc.

    the only way to be sure which approach to take to combat gyno is to get blood test.

    and If you didn't get pre cycle blood work done, when you didn't have gyno, you will not know what is out of imbalance from your bodies equalibrium when you get post cycle blood work done,
    which i dont think you got either done, nor has any of the people giving advice in here.

    you can take androgens, use an a.i., take caber, use raloxifine, what ever, but without knowing what is out of whack, you are basically throwing darts at a target, blind folded, which is why you are seeing so many different remedies in this thread, because they are all from different causes.

    you can try different remedies, but hope you get lucky, cause it can get expensive if you dont find whats wrong.
    ---------------

    and gator, I noticed you said winni blocks the progestin receptor? I have never heard this, and am curious where you learned this, as I believe this to be false, but would like to know the source.
    ------------

    I feel bad for the op, there is alot of bro science in here, I feel he would of been better off not making a thread and researching on gyno.
    I know he said he researched, but there are hundreds of thread just like this, if he had researched, he would of at the least, read those threads, and not needed to make another i got gyno cause I didn't really do any research thread.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcssassin View Post
    i dont think a whole thread of parrot crap will help me!!
    polly want a cracker.
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    first i would like to say thanks for the input! so what i'm getting here is one person tried it and it worked, one person tried it and it got worse,(sigh i tried to avoid this with my original post) and the classic im a dumb a** and there is no way this could of happend to me if i wasn't a dumb a** and did more research... i researched for month's for my first cycle. the acl tren in my belief that that stuff was spiked..lol most of those threads are just full of narsissistic parrots calling the guys retards and not trying to help them! i did a proper pct and guess what i have a slight case. and if you read as many threads as i did you will see the advice on what, and how much to take, changes constantly! and most of the research papers are not constant 1 paper says a given thing will help, and a day later one comes out and says that was untrue, it will harm you! or maybe my research pct was not what they told me it was i dont know? whats done is done.. and i know your smarter than all the rest of us in the thread but please point your finger of justice in another direction!!! i just want advice, not insults, or a daddy figure telling me i should have known better.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jbryand101b View Post

    and gator, I noticed you said winni blocks the progestin receptor? I have never heard this, and am curious where you learned this, as I believe this to be false, but would like to know the source.
    There is no such thing as a designated progestin receptor (at least I've never heard of it). What I said was that Winstrol is the only compound proven to occupy the progesterone receptor without activating it (much like a SERM does for the ER).
    Here's a study to get you started:
    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8079819

    And I learned it on a private AAS board from some guys who really know their ****.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MPFit View Post
    I didn't see where you stated that gyno is not always from estrogen..
    Your saying a progesterone can cause it because it tampers with estrogen- which further validates my point. Not sure where your correction for me is, I'd like to though.
    I said that progesterone only needs a little bit of estrogen to do its work (levels of estrogen well below what would cause gyno without the presence of elevated progesterone). The estrogen isn't causing the gyno in this case, it is merely giving the progesterone an opening.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MPFit View Post
    Controlling prolactin/progesterone with vitamin B5/Dopamine-agonists/Cabergoline can help alleviate prolactin sides (Leaky nips) but contolling estrogen is what helps with gyno..
    You mean Vit. B6 bro, Pyroxidal 5 Phosphate (P-5-P)..

    V.B5 will help with keeping acne under control.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gator 87 View Post
    Ok, the issue here is that nobody in this thread knows the difference between the 2 progestin hormones, Progesterone and prolactin.
    Progesterone can cause gyno. Prolactin only causes leaky nipples, further hpta suppression, and libido issues.

    Winstrol blocks Progesterone at the receptor, dopamine agonists (caber, bromo, prami) lower prolactin secretion.

    There is no such thing as prolactin induced gyno.
    And letro would still help, because progestin hormones require at least some estrogen to function.

    Letro is more powerful than either Aromasin or Adex. It wipes out virtually all estrogen, by inhibiting type I and type II aromatase enzymes. Adex only works on type II, and Aromasin gently lowers both.
    Nice Post, Pretty Much Sums Up This Thread!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gator 87 View Post
    I said that progesterone only needs a little bit of estrogen to do its work (levels of estrogen well below what would cause gyno without the presence of elevated progesterone). The estrogen isn't causing the gyno in this case, it is merely giving the progesterone an opening.
    No problem, just didn't understand completely.

    And Adrenolin- I did mean B6 thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcssassin View Post
    i just want advice, not insults, or a daddy figure telling me i should have known better.
    i gave you advice, but I dont think you saw it. you are going to have to try all the remedies your seeing from people, and the reason why, I already explained in my original post.
    -----------

    Let me ask this, did you see gyno symptoms while you were on cycle, or not until pctt?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gator 87 View Post
    There is no such thing as a designated progestin receptor (at least I've never heard of it). What I said was that Winstrol is the only compound proven to occupy the progesterone receptor without activating it (much like a SERM does for the ER).
    Here's a study to get you started:
    The differential effects of stanozolol on human sk... [Agents Actions. 1994] - PubMed result

    And I learned it on a private AAS board from some guys who really know their ****.
    thats and intersting study, i would like to read the whole thing. It's states the hands also contain progestin receptors (so now i guess you can say you've heard of it right?) and stanz seems to bind to them to inhibit some dna function, but doesnt seem to have an effect on collegen, and nether do the progestin receptors it binds to.

    i need a subscription to pubmed. nice link. repped.
    ------------

    also, 19-nor compounds such as pro dienolone, trenbolone are very strong androgenic/anabolic steroids, that do have some effect on the progestin receptor, but the only leads to possible enhanced estrogenic side effects.
    ------------
    on another note, from reading suggestions from experienced lifters that know their sheet, as gator put it, I recently stacked non methylated stanz with pro dienolone, and has zero side effects, and pct went fine.

    this wasn't the case the first time i tried to run pro dienolone. then I ran it with epistane, but first week in, my gyno flared up like fire, and the nipp was sore.

    even after dropping the dosage in half, didn't help. (and I was stacking with epistane btw)

    so I dropped the tren and epi, and finished up a bottle of hdrol i had. this is what gets rid of gyno symptoms on cycle for me, then went into a strong pct.

    my last cycle was pro dien/pstanz and no gyno symptoms. btw.
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    jbryand it didnt start untill pct very early in pct tho about the end of the first week. and it seemed like it was there all at once. some days its a little smaller, some days a little bigger (puffyness).just some details i was taking p5p and vitex on cycle along with cycle support and taurine my pct was torem and pct assist along with acl's formastane torem ramped down formastane ramped up pct assist 6 caps a day and fenugreek as the boys had some serious shrinkage ( i have been told the fenu could have been the culprit ) cause of tren being a prog......... edit: i was also taking colostrum, whey during the day and whey/cas at night pct also included creatine and no2. this was month's ago and now im getting tenderness hence why im starting this thread as i feel there is still an inbalance
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    Is there anything other then winni that blocks progesterone at the receptor?
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigzach1234 View Post
    Is there anything other then winni that blocks progesterone at the receptor?
    Nope. I'd just recommend a light dose of Winny along with any progestin (maybe 15-20mg).
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    big z, im not sure, gators post was the first i'd hear of it, followed up with the data based article.
    ----------------------

    on another note, I know all the bro's say not to use nolva for pro dienolone, but Llewellyn recomends using nolva post cycle, and on cycle to combat estrogenic sides from 19nor steroid like tren, and dienolone.
    --------------------

    so mc, from what you've stated about your gyno appearing post cycle, I'd have to guess it isn't being caused by the tren, as youre no longer using it, but by the hormonal imbalance cause from A: using a much more potent anabolic/androgenic compound than test, there by increasing that androgen estrogen ratio.

    the body would then increase estrogen production to try to balance it out, and then post cycle, d/t the short half life of the steroid, you all of a sudden have this huge change in androgen/estrogen ratio. very low androgen, high estrogen. and this is to add to the rest of the imbalances in other hormones, leading to your gyno.
    but thats just a hypothesis, no way for me to be certain without (parrot) blood work.
    --------------


    once you start the balancing act in the body, it's tough to get it back to normal.

    basically without pre and post blood test, you are going to have to try various methods until you get one that works.

    hopefully you find it sooner than later, before it gets $$$$
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    ok thanks guys ill work on it and try to figure it out when i find what works...ill post it on this thread if anyone is interested
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    If by SD you mean Super Drol


    Quote Originally Posted by MPFit View Post

    That being said I've never run Tren/Winny/ and progesterone for that matter. SD, PP, Epi, Hdrol, and 1test are my only experiences.


    SD converts to progesterone similar to tren.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jdhil90 View Post
    SD converts to progesterone similar to tren.
    I've heard speculation about this, but nothing concrete.
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    ran epi for the sole purpose of treating my gyno....it did reduce gyno while on cycle. Coming off, even on nolvadex, made it more aggravated than before.

    Right now i am running tumeric and letro for my gyno. Also i heard you should be taking around 500 mg of bg from tren based gyno, its supposed to help a lot
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigrob21 View Post
    ran epi for the sole purpose of treating my gyno....it did reduce gyno while on cycle. Coming off, even on nolvadex, made it more aggravated than before.

    Right now i am running tumeric and letro for my gyno. Also i heard you should be taking around 500 mg of bg from tren based gyno, its supposed to help a lot
    what is bg? and what dose of tumeric this is the first i have heard of this
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    oh another maybe important fact is about 2 months after pct i started having very bad backne very bad worse than i ever had in puberty
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcssassin View Post
    oh another maybe important fact is about 2 months after pct i started having very bad backne very bad worse than i ever had in puberty
    just more evidence that your horomones are out of whack and all over the place
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    There is no way a hormone like this is going to help gyno IMO i just don't see it.
    iForce Nutrition Representative
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