Retaining Your Gains w/o AAS

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  1. Retaining Your Gains w/o AAS

    Another killer Bill L. contribution

    There is a line that is easily crossed in the world of steroids. It is the line between part-time moderate use and the almost never-ending consumption of the hardcore bodybuilder. When first introduced to steroids, one quickly finds that their resulting gains are not all permanent. If you loved the way you looked towards the end of that first bulking cycle, and rapidly lost a good part of your favored look after the cycle stopped, it sometimes becomes an easy choice to just do another cycle, and stay on it longer the next time.

    Braggs of ďjust one or two cyclesĒ soon fade. Eventually it develops into continuous steroid use, as the athlete finds it harder and harder to come off and face the loss of any aspect of his well-crafted physique. But not everyone crosses this line. For many, steroid use remains a periodic event. Occasioned perhaps by a seasonal need for cosmetic improvement, hopefully with health first in mind. If you havenít tried steroids yet but this is the kind of use that is attractive to you, you probably are giving some thought now to just what steroids can provide you in the long run. Exactly what can you maintain after a cycle is over, without hopping right back on the drugs?

    As mentioned, not all of what you gain from steroids is going to stay with you long term. I donít think that is much of a surprise though, as Iím sure it is understood that the drugs just do not immediately and irrevocably transform your body. That of course is not to say steroids are entirely useless unless you take them all of the time. The average recreational bodybuilder can make marked changes to his physique with steroids, which can stay long after the drugs are gone. The problem lies as we wonder exactly how much we can gain and keep. There is clearly a threshold of how much muscle tissue your natural body chemistry would allow you to carry, and if you expect to far exceed that during steroid use it will not remain for a prolonged period of time after the drugs are done. Expect that almost immediately the body will enter a state where slowly but steadily the new mass will diminish. Steroids will soon be needed again if the mass is to be kept.

    Natural Growth and Protein Turnover

    It seems like the bigger you get, the harder it is to add new mass. Walls and plateaus become more of a regular part of training the longer you do it. Before long it is a fight to make any small improvement. The protein cycle likely plays a big part in this. The protein that makes up muscle tissue is subject to constant turnover by the body. New proteins are synthesized, and existing ones broken down. The process is constant. It also seems that this balance becomes strained the more mass we accumulate. The body reaches a point where new proteins cannot be synthesized at a rate that will allow further growth, and new muscle tissue is resisted. It is not easy to trick it to think your way, and gains proceed slowly.

    Steroids allow someone to easily pass such walls and sticking points and enhance their level of muscle mass over what could possibly be achieved otherwise by boosting the ability of cells to synthesize new proteins. The balance of anabolic (tissue building) and catabolic (tissue breakdown) processes can be unnaturally shifted well in favor of the former, and for a period of time natural limits can be exceeded. But once the drugs are stopped, the old chemistry returns. If your body wants to be 160 lbs and you are bulked up to 220lb, donít expect to stay there long. But what if we are not striving for a competitorís physique? Perhaps we didnít gain 60lbs and only want to hold on to maybe 10 or 15 lbs of the 20 lb or so gained this year. If the muscle gains are not unreasonable, is fighting to keep them a practical idea? Certainly, and the place to fight for them is in the post-cycle hormonal recovery period.

    Post-Cycle Recovery Period

    The biggest obstacle to keeping your gains after the cycle is over is going to be the post-cycle recovery period. This describes the window of time after steroids are withdrawn, and before the body has been able to restore its internal hormonal balance. The problem is that during the cycle the body detects excess hormones quickly. In an effort to counter this imbalance, the release of testosterone is drastically lowered. Because the body stops signaling the testes to produce testosterone, they become atrophied. Cell size and activity shrinks, and for a period of time they are physically less able to do their jobs. When the drugs are stopped and the stimulus comes to produce testosterone again, they canít do it. It may take several weeks for the body to normalize after the cycle is over, sometimes months as the testes slowly catch up. The resulting window is categorized by extremely low anabolic activity, which is often unable to balance the bodyís natural catabolic forces. Left unchecked, muscle mass can rapidly diminish. I donít think I have to explain why this period of time is also commonly called the post-cycle crash.

    The Problem With Tapering

    Extremely common is the recommendation to slowly taper off steroid dosages at the end of each cycle in order to avoid a post-cycle crash. For example, if we were taking 800mg of testosterone enanthate weekly and 100mg Anadrol per day at the peak of a bulking run, at least 4 or 6 weeks would be spent slowly lowering that amount when we were ready to go off. The testosterone dosage would dropped by a 100 or 200 milligrams per week, and the Anadrol maybe a half a tab less daily on every seventh or tenth day. Over the course of four to six weeks, we would be hoping for a soft cushy landing back to balanced internal hormone levels as our bodies read this lowering and respond by firing up our testosterone again. The problem is that we would be expecting way too much from this type of a program. The inescapable flaw with tapering is that even relatively low levels of steroids can be suppressive to natural testosterone release. Even 100mg per week of enanthate, or 25mg per day of Anadol would lower testosterone levels. So how can we expect 6 weeks devoted to dropping intake to this point to help us? Clearly we cannot. Testosterone would not budge during the 6 weeks, and it would be a completely useless endeavor with the crash still occurring once the drugs were completely stopped. Tapering is no doubt a relic of the earlier ages of steroid use, when drugs were taken with little understanding of their actions. Today we know better, and prefer to rely on other means to help restore our natural androgen production.

    Post Cycle Help

    The use of HCG (human chorionic gonadotropin) and an anti-estrogen such as tamoxifen (Nolvadex) or clomiphene (Clomid) is considered the most effective way to combat crashing at the end of the cycle. HCG and an anti-estrogen are both implemented first. This compound is basically injectable LH (luetinizing hormone); it mimics the natural body hormone that stimulates the release of testosterone. Typically 5000IU is given per application, once every four or five days. This is only continued for two to three weeks at maximum, no more than three or four shots total. The function of HCG is to hit the testes hard with a heavy dose of LH, in order to help shock them back into working order. The anti-estrogen is used to help block any trouble that might come if estrogen levels begin to elevate. After this the anti-estrogen is taken alone for two to three weeks. These drugs also work in a similar way to HCG, as they enhance LH output. However the anti-estrogens work by blocking receptors in the brain that trigger the negative feedback loop that halts testosterone release. Endogenous LH levels can be elevated as a result, but not exponentially. The increase is similarly notable but not unreasonable. We are hoping this will be enough to enable the body to produce a physiologically normal amount of testosterone and cushion the effect a hormonal imbalance can have on muscle mass.


    The goal of a good post-cycle program is to minimize, potentially avoid, putting the body in a state where anabolic hormones are absent. If we can prevent this from happening, quite a bit of muscle mass can be saved instead of being rapidly lost to unbalanced hormone levels. Although tapering offers us little, fortunately we find there are a few common bodybuilding drugs that can aid us. Once the crash is dealt with and eventually balance restored, it will be up to you and your internal chemistry to see if the muscle mass is maintainable long-term. Of course I donít have to remind you that diet and training are also very important factors. If one loses the drive to train aggressively or eat correctly, then there is that much more to fight against. But that aside, I have spoken with many recreational bodybuilders who feel that early experimentation they did with steroids has made lasting changes in the absence of these drugs. Some feel that they are able to carry around more muscle mass now than they were before trying steroids, yet continue to train naturally and have so for years. I think it is mostly just a matter of how much muscle you are looking for. If you have only dabbled with steroids and like the modest look of muscularity you have achieved, then I donít doubt a little diligence should enable you to keep a nice physique. But if you think you are going to massively bulk up, be prepared for the hard and inevitably hopeless fight to hang on to your gains that accompanies long breaks from steroid use.


    1- Effect of long term testosterone oenanthate administration on male reproductive function. Acta Endocrinol 78 (1975) 373-84

    2- Effects of chronic testosterone administration in normal men: safety and efficacy of high dosage testosterone and parallel dose-dependent suppression of luteinizing hormone, follicle-stimulating hormone, and sperm production. J Clin Endocrinol Metab 1990 Jan;70(1):282-7

    3- Alteration of hormone levels in normal males given the anabolic steroid stanozolol. Clin Endocrinol (Oxf) 1984 Jul;21(1):49-55

    4- Accute stimulation of aromatization in Leydig cells by HCG in vitro. Proc Natl Acad Sci 76:4460, 1979 5- Hormonal effects of an antiestrogen, tamoxifen, in normal and oligospermic men. Fertil Steril 1978 Mar;29(3):320-7

  2. Another good one YJ...

    okay I have a question, lets say that one of the guys is going to have to be doing Hormone replacement which is usually about 200-250 mg of test every other week. Do you think that you would have to do anything out of the ordinary to regain test levels at the end of a cycle?  Anyone feel free to put an opinion in on this..

  3. As long as you're supplying body with artificial hormones, your own wont contribute at its full potential.

  4. How long does it take of using artifical androgens before the body starts shutting down test production?

  5. Depends up on the ester of test I would assume.

  6. Trenabolone will start shutting you down markedly in only a few days.

  7. Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Another killer Bill L. contribution
    the anti-estrogens work by blocking receptors in the brain that trigger the negative feedback loop that halts testosterone release. Endogenous LH levels can be elevated as a result, but not exponentially. The increase is similarly notable but not unreasonable .
    . We are hoping this will be enough to enable the body to produce a physiologically normal amount of testosterone and cushion the effect a hormonal imbalance can have on muscle mass.

    this is the part that worries me . we are hoping ????

  8. Elite's Revised "Gainskeeper Formula"

    Clomid Day 1: 300mg/day
    Clomid Days 2-14: 100mgs/day
    Clomid Days 15-21: 50mgs/day

    H C G: 2500 IU's 2X/week Weeks 1,2,3

    Bromocriptine: 2.5mgs 2X/day Days 1-21

    Arimidex: 1mg ED or 1/2mg ED Days 1-21

    **Note, this looks good on paper, Im looking for anyone with actual feedback on it, its fairly new....

  9. Original Gainskeeper Formula 2000

    Gainskeeper Formula 2002

    Everyone who has ever done a cycle of anabolic androgenic steroids knows that the ultimate test comes once the last shot is administered. The rapid gains, feeling of well being, hell on a cycle you feel immortal, like nothing can touch you. An excellent feeling it is. Once the cycle is over, the user is faced to suffer the ultimate feat or any steroid user, the crash.

    To understand the crash, you must first understand why you grew so much and felt so damn good when you were on. The answer is that the exogenous testosterone you were injecting into your body is many times its natural production and due to the excess test, your balls have no reason to produce any.

    Estrogen however, increases at the same rate as your test, which is no many times higher than your natural production. The result: estrogen related sides like the smooth skin, moon face, and god for bit bitch tit.

    When using testosterone, the only hormones of concern are test and estrogen, which is what I will focus on. The following is an anabolic cycle designed for a steroid novice which will provide substantial gains, minimal side effects, and avoid the dreaded crash.

    First lets look at a the wrong way to cycle, Bill tried:

    A 16-Week Cycle of Sustanon 250, and 15-30mg of Dbol daily. He had never heard of clomid, or even HCG. He had no understanding of what the drugs were doing to him. He gained over 30lbs in the 16 weeks, only to lose 40lbs over the next two months when his balls were producing hardly and test, his estrogen was sky high, and he was suffering from depression. Needless to say he will never try anabolics again.

    At the end of his 16-week cycle, he had practically not testosterone,, elevated estrogen, and elevated prolactin. A complete catabolic environment. That is the horror stories you hear about juice, but the real reason for the crash is ignorance.

    The most important thing to do before deciding to use AAS is to go to the doctor and get a blood plasma testosterone and estrogen evaluations. Now you have quantitative data to compare to your post cycle levels. I cannot stress the importance of a pre cycle evaluation enough. Once you start, itís too late. Before I get to the cycle, I want to take a look at the drugs used. I got these off AJCís site so big thanks to him!


    1. Anastrozole (Arimidex) Oral anastrozole belongs to a class of antineoplastic drugs called aromatase inhibitors. It is used as a second phase treatment of breast cancer in postmenopausal women. It works by decreasing estrogen levMost bodybuilders using Arimidex as an anti-aromitase in the place of Clomid, Nolvadex, etc. although you will still need clomid to "jump start" the testes after a cycle. Bodybuilders are using anywhere from .25mg to 1mg per day or .5 mg to 1mg every other day with great results. It is mainly being used to prevent gynecomastia (bitch tits) and bloating (edema) associated with the use of injectible testosterones and other androgens that can possibly convert to estrogen. It is also said to somewhat reverse existing gynecomastia, but this is still up for debate.

    Taken orally, Anastrozole inhibits the enzyme aromatase. By blocking this enzyme, the production in the body's tissues of estrogen is also blocked. It is thought that some forms of breast cancer are stimulated by estrogen, and by reducing amounts of estrogen in the body the progression of the disease is halted.


    HCG, or Human chorionic gonadotropin , which is derived from the urine of pregnant women, is an injectable drug available commercially in the United States as well as many other countries. Pregnyl, made by Organon, and Profasi, made by Serono, are FDA approved for the treatment of undescended testicles in very young boys, hypogonadism (underproduction of testosterone) and as a fertility drug used to aid in inducing ovulation in women. Among athletes, HCG is used to stimulate natural testosterone production during or after a steroid cycle which has caused natural levels to be reduced. Stopping a steroid cycle abruptly, especially when endogenous androgens are absent, can cause a rapid loss in the athlete's newly acquired muscle. When HCG is used to stimulate natural production, a notably pronounced crash may be avoided. Although fakes are not very common, they do exist and should be avoided. More than one athlete has reported unpleasant side effects (fever, aches) due to an un-sterile fake so take caution. HCG is always packaged in 2 different vials,one with a powder and the other with a sterile solvent. These vials need to be mixed before injecting, and refrigerated should any be left for later use.


    Clomid is a brand name for the drug clomiphene citrate. It is typically prescribed for women to aid in ovulation. In men, the application of Clomid causes an elevation of follicle stimulating hormone and luteinizing hormone. As a result, natural testosterone production is also increased. This effect is obviously beneficial to the athlete, especially at the conclusion of a cycle when endogenous testosterone levels are subnormal. When an athlete discontinues the use of steroids, his testosterone levels will most likely be suppressed. If endogenous testosterone levels are not brought to normal, a dramatic loss in size and strength may occur. Clomid plays a crucial role in preventing this crash in athletic performance. Bodybuilders find that a daily intake of 50-100 mg of clomiphene citrate over a two week period will bring endogenous testosterone production back to an acceptable level. Clomid will gradually raise testosterone levels over its period of intake. Since an immediate boost in testosterone is often desirable, athlete will commonly use HCG (human chorionic gonadotropin) for a couple of weeks, and the continue treatment with Clomid. Clomid is also effective as an anti-estrogen. Most athletes will suffer from an elevated estrogen level at the conclusion of a cycle. A high estrogen level combined with a low testosterone level puts an athlete in serious risk of developing gynocomastia. With the intake of Clomid, the athlete gets the dual effect of blocking out some of the effects of estrogen, while also increasing endogenous testosterone production. In relation to toxicity and side effects, Clomid is considered a fairly safe drug. Bodybuilders seldom experience any problems, but possible side effects include hot flashes and temporary blurred vision. Clomiphene citrate is widely available on the black market. Until recently, it was relatively easy to get through foreign mail order. However, since the DEA is playing an active role in pursuing mail-order operations catering to athletes, Clomid is becoming harder to obtain. Current prices are between $2-$4 per 50 mg tab. Generics such as Clomiphene citrate by Anfarm in Greece are frequently seen on the black market and can be purchased for about $1 a tablet.

    ZMA and Tribestan are useful supplements to incorporate at the end of a cycle, and while off, as they have both been demonstrated to increase natural testosterone production.

  10. Here's a link to the table they lay out the doses, weeks, etc.

    Gainskeep Formula 2002

  11. Just wondering how well the old formula for gaining keeping works compared to what Big Cat has laid out in his numerous posts on the post cycle. 

  12. Another View .....

    Well not whole ALL.But a lots of infos.

    First of all calculate how long you gear will last in your sistem.You can find a lot of link about this point.
    During the GAP from the last injection untill the first day you can start clomid,use Proviron at the dosage of 1mgxkg bodywheight(if you are 100kg-220lbs-use 100mg).This will help yuo to keep aromatase low and so the estrogen rebound and also this won't affect your lh and fsh production if it is still active.
    Then start Clomid therapy for 21 or 30days
    1 300mg(200)
    2-10 150mg
    11-21 100mg
    22-30 50mg
    Then you can start tribulus and ZMA and whatever you like..or start a bridge with primo or oxa...
    HOW TO MAKE IT BETTER:you can use arimidex at 1mg/eod thorughout the recovey or just to fill the GAP.This makes a big difference.You can also add a CLENSTACK starting it the same day you'll start clomid therapy.80mcg of clen with 6mg of ketotifen
    You can also use dnp instead of clenstack but I prefer clen because is less harsh.
    If you have trouble to remain lean as at the end of cycle,probabily you should add 20mcg of T3 when yous tart clomid and clenstack for that period.Then with tribulus a good thiroid stimulant(we have ANTIADIPOSO here)
    1-4:30mg dbol
    1-8:500mg testoviron
    1-8:400mg deca(In this cycle deca is the one that remains for the longest time in your system,so you have to chek it!)
    -the GAP is 3weeks,so we go like this-:
    9-11:100mgprovrion/ed(and 1mg/eod of arimidex if you can)
    12-15:clomid therapy+clenstack(+T3 if needed and arimidex if you have moneys!)
    16-??:clomid,zma,antiadiposo,alc and so on.

    All is the same as above but you make your cycle longer by adding some weeks to your cycle istead of use proviron.I raccomend winstrol,testo propionate(not fenprop!!!)and oxa
    Let's use the same example cycle as above:
    1-4:30mg dbol
    1-8:500mg test
    1-8:400mg deca
    -Now we change the weeks 9-11 like this-:
    9-11:testo prop 100mg /eod or e3rdd
    9-11:25mg of oral winstrol/ed or more if you like.Or 25mg winny and 25mg oxa
    You can still use arimidex in this period.Proviron is good too but at half the dosage of the previous BASIC.So
    9-11arimidex) proviron 50mg/ed
    12-15:clomid therapy,clen stack and so on....

    IMP:if you run harsh cycle probably you will need higher dosage for winstrol and testo prop(50mg ed for w and 100mg/ed for prop)-if you run harsh cycle it would be very helpfull shoot some HCG the last 3weeks of the cycle to prevent Leyding cell atrophy.

    For the very very harsh I raccomend not to use clomid therapy but a gonadoreline(or gonadoreline acetate)therapy.

    I hope you this can help you out guy to kee as much gains you can get!!!

    I should add that you could need to use T3 after a cycle.But for this you have to check your thiroyd values.

  13. Here's a little chart if the visual will help:
    Attached Images Attached Images  

  14. any androgen will only supress ur htpa further , so androgen use shud be discontinued yj , and coming off proviron , u will experience unwanted effects on the libido imo ....

    so all i wud use post cycle is armi , nolva , bromo(for the prolactin) , and hcg . dont use androgens .

  15. Well techincally using the androgens further isnt "coming off" its tapering down to a lower dose so when you do come off, the "Crash" wont be nearly as hard as it would be coming off of high to moderate doses.

  16. then u can rather taper down using the injectible itself , cos 50 mg ed etc of proviron costs u more than an amp or ml of testosterone for sure . so whats the deal with this ? besides , its like ending a cycle with heavy androgens , u wud only crash further ? i think so . better idea to taper down with taper down the way doggcrapp talks .....

  17. Well its certainly not a cost effective way to taper down, I'll give you that, but if you can get the above mentioned compounds for a reasonable price, this is the way to go IMO

  18. Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Well techincally using the androgens further isnt "coming off" its tapering down to a lower dose so when you do come off, the "Crash" wont be nearly as hard as it would be coming off of high to moderate doses.
    THe tapering down IMO is BS because it only takes a small amount to supress the HPTA. Whats the point. If you have any other info that contradicts this, I would like to see it. This is also why bridging is completely pointless.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  19. Ok, maybe I should say this

    I didnt write these and I dont necessarily use them exactly as they're laid out, they are very interesting and I thought everyone would like to view them and form an opinion for themselves.

  20. Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Ok, maybe I should say this

    I didnt write these and I dont necessarily use them exactly as they're laid out, they are very interesting and I thought everyone would like to view them and form an opinion for themselves.
    No. Its your fault and you know it! You know you think this way!!!

    Serisouly though if anyone wants to know why bridging is useless, check this link out.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  21. this was posted by Fonz at EF.

    Ive been reading some of the posts regarding this
    bridge and some of them are truly from left-field.
    First of, this is a BRIDGE. OK? a B-R-I-D-G-E.

    Your LH function and Test levels are supposed
    to RECOVER.

    Ok, now having said that.
    Heres the pharmo-kinetics behind Methandrostenelone,
    brand name Dianabol.

    10mg taken at once will increase your average testosterone level by 5 times and decrease your endogeneous cosrtisone
    by 50-70%.

    The reason why dianabol is a good choice for a bridge is that
    its VERY anti-catabolic. It also dopaminergic. Giving you the
    benefits of increased CNS strength modulation by
    its androgenic mode of action.
    Androgens, in case you don know, increase neuro-muscular
    function, thus STRENGTH.

    OK. Now, lets delve into the metabolic chemistry behind
    dianabols choice as a bridging agent.

    When are testosterone levels highest?

    Answer: In the AM, thats when.

    Your body releases a tesosterone spike in the morning.
    This is when tesosterone levels are highest.

    When are Insulin levels lowest?

    Answer: In the AM thats when.

    Low insulin levels=increased protein used as fuel.
    (Also fat, but protein is also being converted
    to glucose via glucogenesis)

    OK, here is where dballs short half-life works for us
    (Its 3.2-4.5 hrs btw)

    Lets take Subject X.

    Hes in bridging mode.
    He has just woken up.
    The body is about to release tesosterone, thus
    creating a spike.
    His insulin levels are low.
    His LH and test levels are very low.

    He pops 10mgs of dianabol.

    Here is where things get interesting.

    The 10mgs of dianabol will cause a testosterone
    spike WHICH COINCIDES WITH the testosterone
    released ENDOGENEOUSLY in the AM by the testes.

    The body will be partially fooled.
    It will not entirely detect the increased levels of testosterone
    (above the normal test sipke), thus LH function WILL
    REMAIN only partially(Very little actually) suppressed.

    In other words, he is "piggy-backing" an extra dose of testosterone on top of the endogeneously reduced one,
    thus creating an "inflated" test spike.

    Henceforth, LH levels WILL BE ALLOWED TO SLOWLY
    RECOVER over time.
    Also, dbols anti-catabolic effect will help curb protein-loss
    in the morning from low insulogenic levels.

    HOWEVER, and here is where almost all of you go wrong.

    You CANNOT GO PAST 10mg of dianabol in the AM
    for this bridge to work!!!!

    Why? Because of the blood levels of dianabol you would generate.

    10mg in the AM will be broken down to 5mg in about 4 hrs
    (Probably less)

    5mg of dianabol, is not enough to cause another rise
    in testosterone levels after the precceeding one. Thus,
    LH function is allowed to up-regulate.

    Anything more(Say 20mgs), will cause a SEDCONDARY
    testosterone spike which WILL inhibit LH function further,
    thus not allowing LH function to recover.

    Oh yeah...100mgs? ROTLMFAO!! Fat chance.

    The difference between 20mgs and 10mgs means the difference
    between allowing LH to recover slowly and not allowing it to.

    So, heres the scenario summed up:

    Beginning: LOW LH and test.

    Adding the 10mgs dbol.

    LH is allowed to SLOWLY RECOVER over time as
    testosterone levels are kept at a level which
    will not cause muscle-loss. Also, dbols anti-catabolic effects
    will reduce protein degradation.(Via cortisone

    This is what i call a double positive. You have managed to
    INCREASE anabolism(Test levels) and DECREASE
    catabolism(cortisone), during a bridge to boot!!

    The bridge should last 8 weeks, NO LESS.
    I also have to say, that it WILL NOT restore
    complete LH function. Itll get you 80-90%
    of the way there but the only way you e going
    to get your full LH function back is if you go OFF
    Anavar WILL NOT restore LH completely either btw.
    (In case anybody is wondering.)
    The difference is that with anavar you can take it
    throughout the day and with dbol it HAS TO BE
    once in the AM.

  22. I posted it here.... and this article is weak....look how Big Cat picked it apart.... Dbol is a very poor androgen....I respect Fonz, but this one was weak.

  23. True its very weak. But I can see where Cat is coming from and his logic would work for just about any type of bridging. Either shoot you HCG or just go year round.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  24. Exactly, thus HCG appears in each of these examples.....

  25. Originally posted by YellowJacket
    Well its certainly not a cost effective way to taper down, I'll give you that, but if you can get the above mentioned compounds for a reasonable price, this is the way to go IMO
    bro , proviron has hardly any anabolic activity , so whats the use ???why is this the way to go then ?


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