Some questions for those who know...

[BigVrunga]

Hey -
Recently Ive learned that I have a very reliable, relatively safe source for 'real' gear. Ive only had limited experience with androgens (a 4 week 1test/4AD cycle over a year ago that yielded great gains which I kept), although before that cycle I did months of research and preparation.
I was planning on doing another 1test cycle this summer, but now that I have access to more powerful compounds, would it just make sense to go with them? Im in the process of reading through BigCat's steroid profiles to educate myself on the various effects/sides/combinations that pertain to each chemical. I was hoping some of you who are more experienced could give me a little advice to help in my research.
What would be a good beginner stack for lean gains? Im looking for something I can run 8 weeks or less with little in the way of liver toxicity. Im not afraid to pin, and am using minoxidil/spiro to succesfully combat natural MPB. I didnt have any hair loss isssues with 1test, and I know that that is fairly androgenic, so any compound as or less androgenic than 1test shouldnt be a problem.
Right now, Im 28 yrs old, 6', 225#, about 12-13% bodyfat. I wanted to cut down this summer and was thinking of a diet plan that would allow me to reduce body fat, gain some quality lean mass via hormones and then bulk as cleanly as possible. Something like this:

Weeks 1-4 start CKD diet, 250 cals below maitenence
Weeks 4-8 start 8-10 week anabolics cycle, continue CKD reducing cals to 500 below maitenece
Weeks 8-12 switch to a clean 40-40-20 diet, change training routine to focus on mass and power
Weeks 12-16 start PCT, upping cals to preserve gains.
Weeks 16-28 maintain clean diet, cosistent training
Weeks 28-36 begin natural CKD cycle to trim remaining bodyfat and achieve goal of a lean ~6-8% BF 215-220#

Im having trouble figuring out how you'd keep gains made after a cutting cycle. From everything I know, you have to up cals along with proper PCT to keep the muscle on. Im thinking this plan would allow me to shed some fat over 8 weeks of cutting, then bulk clean on 4-6 weeks of anabolics to build some quality lean mass that I'll keep. Also, going from a caloric deficit to a bulking diet should help to kick-start a nice anabolic state. The other benefit here is that I wouldnt need to do another cycle for a while, IMO the less drugs you have to do to reach your goal the better.

Thanks in advance for your advice/opinions.

BigV

 

[sifu]

For a first cycle, I would run test only.

 

[PC1]

How about:

500 mg/wk test enanthate weeks 1-8
50 mg/day proviron weeks 1-8
125 mcg/week on p.w.o days IGF L3 Weeks 1-4 and again PCT weeks 9-12 (1-1ml vial total)
500 iu's/wk HCG weeks 1-8
6000 iu's HCG spread over 1st 20 days (beginning week 9) PCT (10,000 iu's total cycle)
40 mg/day Nolva weeks 9-10
20 mg/day Nolva weeks 11-12

Actually, I know someone who is about to do this very thing in about 2 weeks, and his goals are very similar to yours BIG V. He is VERY much looking forward to the results therefrom

 

[sifu]

No need to complicate things on a first cycle. If he starts having any type of side effect, how will he know which substance it is from?

 

[PC1]

No need to complicate things on a first cycle. If he starts having any type of side effect, how will he know which substance it is from?

Good point. I don't think it's a complicated cycle though, and the dosages are on the low side. Given his experience with PH's, it's not as though he's un-initiated.

I think test only could easily lead to some gyno, even if it's mild. And in the end, it's all about what we KEEP from a cycle, not the temporary effects of what we get while being on. I'd rather err on the side of being a little aggressive on the PCT if it means more is kept PCT.

But you're also right to raise the concern.

 

[sifu]

I see both sides as having merit.

 

[ruffneck]

I dont think that your going to get the gains you want from a 8 week cycle of test E unless you front load it. You say your not afraid to pin so I would go with Prop at 100-150mg eod. I'm not a fan of Proviron. I would go with Anavar if you have the funds. The IGF is a good idea. I would go 30-40mcg ed for first 4 weeks then again in the PCT. I woudl go with the HCG but if you go with Prop you will need to start the 6000 about 2 weeks prior to the last injection. Start the PCT 3 days after the last injection of Prop.

 

[Skye]

I dont think that your going to get the gains you want from a 8 week cycle of test E unless you front load it. You say your not afraid to pin so I would go with Prop at 100-150mg eod. I'm not a fan of Proviron. I would go with Anavar if you have the funds. The IGF is a good idea. I would go 30-40mcg ed for first 4 weeks then again in the PCT. I woudl go with the HCG but if you go with Prop you will need to start the 6000 about 2 weeks prior to the last injection. Start the PCT 3 days after the last injection of Prop.

Not to hijack the thread but why don't you like proviron? I have had great sucess with it in keeping dry while not over doing it. letro was too strong as was the ledex (and the price per gram I choked) But I have noticed that a lot of people around here aren't found of it at all.

BTW I agree completely on the prop. I like runing 6 weeks of prop and an oral (i use dbol usually, had a lot of powder laying around) but 6 weeks is about all I like for the ED pin.

 

[ruffneck]

Used it once and just wasn't impressed. Haven't read a lot of good responses about it. But I know that some types of gear work better for some people. You never know until you try it for yourself.

 

[BigVrunga]

Thanks for the responses guys -

Good point. I don't think it's a complicated cycle though, and the dosages are on the low side. Given his experience with PH's, it's not as though he's un-initiated.

Hey again PC1! I know I have the discipline to handle it - I'd just want to make sure the dosages were right for my experience level (low dosages...)

I think test only could easily lead to some gyno, even if it's mild. And in the end, it's all about what we KEEP from a cycle, not the temporary effects of what we get while being on. I'd rather err on the side of being a little aggressive on the PCT if it means more is kept PCT.

Stacking the test with proviron allows for an increase the effectiveness of test via binding to SHBG and albumin protiens,and decreasing possibilites of estrogen related sides by blocking the aromatase enzyme, right? Makes sense - this is kind of alike a 'test on steroids' stack

A few Q's on the PCT though -

Why the IGF in weeks 1-4 post work out? Why do 500iU's HCG throughout the cycle? (an attempt to keep the testes functioning from the supressiveness of the test/proviron?) I thought HCG was purely for PCT?

What benefits would I hope to gain from the IGF? Isnt this a relatively 'new' chemical that really hasnt been tested yet?

What about a stack of something like D-Bol/Primobolan which wouldnt be that suppressive to natural test levels? Is the test/proviron stack far superior as far as gains made/gains retained?

Finally, compared to my previous 1test/4AD stack (I used a bottle of BDC T1), how much more would I be seeing in terms of quality gains? On T1, I gained nearly 20lbs in 4 weeks and a boatload of strength. Would this 8 week cycle of test/proviron surpass that on all levels?

Thanks!!
BigV

 

[PC1]

I should slightly qualify the timing of what my friend above is doing.... he's not going to be starting PCT until week 10. I typed the above fairly late that night

The L3 IGF only seems to have an effective duration of about 4 weeks. It gives an effect of hyperplasia, rather than hypertrophy (new cells, not just existing cell growth)

So one can take it during cycle, take a 4 week break from it which is the time period generally recommended before taking it again, and then take it again during PCT.

Taking it PCT would accomplish 2 things. 1 being that you can build new muscle cells during an otherwise "anabolically challenged" period of time during one's training cycle. The other is, you'd generally feel a lot better during that same period. I took it just awhile ago. I felt really great, sex drive was up. There's annecdotal evidence that it helps to balance hpta although it hasn't been demonstrated to do that yet, that I know of anyway, in any scientific sense.

At $200.00 for a 1ml vial, it isn't cheap. But it is effective.

On the HCG, the reason for taking it during a cycle as you've mentioned, is to keep the nuts primed to avoid atrophy from non use. It's generally held that full recovery is longer proportionately to the duration and degree of atrophy. An 8 week cycle may not be a very long cycle but to my thinking, ANY degree of testicular atrophy is a bad thing. I've also read that testicular atrophy may be related to testicular cancer, so I'd rather not take any chances personally. The financial cost of 10,000 iu's of HCG in that light, is an investment worth making.

The Dbol/Primobolan stack you mention would absolutely be suppressive of natural test. What I've read is that even miniscule amounts of exogenous supplementation represent "supraphysiological" amounts from the perspective of our hpta, and that there really is no such a thing as consuming androgens in such a manner as to be both effective anabolically without being suppressive.

However, L3 IGF is not an androgen, and doesn't negatively impact hpta And there have been several threads here that describe guys results while taking it.

In terms of gains, I don't know what to say. You did very well with your PH cycle! I think you'd also do very well with a cycle such as this also. I think you'd also find that you'd feel better while on it, without suffering 1-test lethargy. I can't stand that.

Good luck bro!

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Stacking the test with proviron allows for an increase the effectiveness of test via binding to SHBG and albumin protiens,and decreasing possibilites of estrogen related sides by blocking the aromatase enzyme, right? Makes sense - this is kind of alike a 'test on steroids' stack

BigV

No it doesn't.

The effect of mesterolone administration to normal men on the pituitary-testicular function.

Aakvaag A, Stromme SB.


"The reduction in total plasma testosterone and the unchanged free testosterone is probably due to reduced testosterone binding to SHBG."

So even though mesterolone competes with test for SHBG binding, the diplaced test is cleared from the system faster, resulting in no net change of free test, since as the authors point out:

"the MCR [metabolic clearance rate] is inversely related to the degree of protein binding."

 

[lifted]

I think test only could easily lead to some gyno, even if it's mild.

PC1, I don't understand what you're saying here. IOW's, proviron might help some with estrogen, but that doesn't meanthat he still couldn't get gyno....

It's his first cycle, stick w/ test only and if concerend about gyno, run a low dose of nolva throughout at the most. If not running nolva from the start, when the first signs of gyno are noticed, mega dose at 80-60mg until it subsides and then continue on @ 20mg for the duration....

 

[BigVrunga]

No it doesn't.

The effect of mesterolone administration to normal men on the pituitary-testicular function.

Aakvaag A, Stromme SB.


"The reduction in total plasma testosterone and the unchanged free testosterone is probably due to reduced testosterone binding to SHBG."

So even though mesterolone competes with test for SHBG binding, the diplaced test is cleared from the system faster, resulting in no net change of free test, since as the authors point out:

"the MCR [metabolic clearance rate] is inversely related to the degree of protein binding."

Thanks for clearing that up Bobo - my info was right from BC's steroid profile page. I didnt search PubMed yet. So is there any point to using Proviron on this cycle, considering that it dosent have much of an anabolic effect by itself? Its binds to the armotase enzyme, but wouldnt it make sense to use Nolva if reducing estrogen were was your reason for using the proviron?

What's your opinion of the IGF use during the first 4 weeks and during PCT?

In terms of gains, I don't know what to say. You did very well with your PH cycle! I think you'd also do very well with a cycle such as this also. I think you'd also find that you'd feel better while on it, without suffering 1-test lethargy. I can't stand that.

When I did that cycle, I prepared myself for about two months before had. I cut my hours back at work to about 20/wk, really focused on my diet like never before, and ensured that I was getting 10 hours of sleep a night. I also had my training planned for the full 8 weeks of cycle/PCT. I was also training with my brother which helped tremendously, as we both have very similar genetics and responded almost identically to the same diet/cycle/training.
If that kind of focus would illicit even greater gains from a cycle of testosterone, then I would be more than willing to go for it. I really didnt have any negatve effects from the 1test, maybe some slight aggression, but not really any lethargy from the 200mg/day TD dosage.

Do you think it would make more sense to just stick with the PH's?

BigV

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Thanks for clearing that up Bobo - my info was right from BC's steroid profile page. I didnt search PubMed yet. So is there any point to using Proviron on this cycle, considering that it dosent have much of an anabolic effect by itself? Its binds to the armotase enzyme, but wouldnt it make sense to use Nolva if reducing estrogen were was your reason for using the proviron?

What's your opinion of the IGF use during the first 4 weeks and during PCT?

I know where it is from but he is incorrect.

If you want to reduce estrogen a low dose AI would be your best bet. Nolva will not reduce estrogen much at all. It is only selectively anti-estrogenic at the hypothalamus and pituitary. Proviron would reduce estrogen a little bit just because its a DHT deriviative but it won't increase overall Test like most think. I think the best IMO wold be a low dose AI like I said. You don't want to reduce estrogen that much anyway. Just watch you carb and sodium intake, keep estrogen relatively low (not bottomed out) and your aldosterone levels won't increase by much (reason you get water retention).

 

[Dwight Schrute]

BTW- His recommendation of IGF-1 is a good one.

 

[BigVrunga]

I know where it is from but he is incorrect.

BigCat should make some edits - his list is definately one of the first stops for those seeking to improve their knowledge of anabolics.

Does proviron have any use, stacked with test?

If you want to reduce estrogen a low dose AI would be your best bet.

Would Armidex be a good choice?