M5AA for PCT?

stream187

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Hi,
First post here :)
I'm about to start a m1t/4ad cycle but still a bit hung up about PCT. Probably won't get my hands on Nolva/Clomid so I was thinking about using m5aa/6oxo as PCT.
Here's a quote about m5aa from the product description:"It should be very well suited as a preworkout stimulant, as well as reducing the effects of estrogen and SHBG on a cycle. Since DHT acts as an aromatize inhibitor, it can help reduce circulating estrogen on a cycle in lieu of typical anti-estrogens such as Nolvadex."

So anyone have any experience with this? Advice on dosage? Take the 6oxo after m5aa?
Thanks..
 

MarcusG

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No it won't work for PCT, it'll make it worse.

Where did that misleading product description come from?
 

Sldge

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It doesnt say to be used for PCT, everything stated in the article is ture, it will reduce overall estrogen, but because it binds to the AR and has an anabolic effect that is why you wouldnt use it for PCT. It would further suppress HPTA. BUt to use it on cycle instead of Nolvadex, for compounds like 4 ad, it does work.
 
Dwight Schrute

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Hi,
It should be very well suited as a preworkout stimulant, as well as reducing the effects of estrogen and SHBG on a cycle. Since DHT acts as an aromatize inhibitor, it can help reduce circulating estrogen on a cycle in lieu of typical anti-estrogens such as Nolvadex."

So anyone have any experience with this? Advice on dosage? Take the 6oxo after m5aa?
Thanks..
That quote says nothing about post cycle. Plus I have never seen any evidence that actually shows decreasing SHBG has any beneficial effect at all. In fact the only evidence out there shows that it has zero effect.
 

Sldge

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I only had a chance to read the first study, the others i skimmed, but the first study showed a decrease in SHBG after the administration of DHT.


J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2002 Apr;87(4):1467-72. Related Articles, Links


Comment in:
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2002 Apr;87(4):1462-6.

The effects of transdermal dihydrotestosterone in the aging male: a prospective, randomized, double blind study.

Kunelius P, Lukkarinen O, Hannuksela ML, Itkonen O, Tapanainen JS.

Division of Urology, Department of Surgery, University of Oulu, FIN-90014 Oulu, Finland.

The objective of the study was to investigate the effects of dihydrotestosterone (DHT) gel on general well-being, sexual function, and the prostate in aging men. A total of 120 men participated in this randomized, placebo-controlled study (60 DHT and 60 placebo). All subjects had nocturnal penile tumescence once per week or less, andropause symptoms, and a serum T level of 15 nmol/liter or less and/or a serum SHBG level greater than 30 nmol/liter. The mean age was 58 yr (range, 50-70 yr). Of these subjects, 114 men completed the study. DHT was administered transdermally for 6 months, and the dose varied from 125-250 mg/d. General well-being symptoms and sexual function were evaluated using a questionnaire, and prostate symptoms were evaluated using the International Prostate Symptoms Score, transrectal ultrasonography, and assay of serum prostate-specific antigen. Early morning erections improved transiently in the DHT group at 3 months of treatment (P < 0.003), and the ability to maintain erection improved in the DHT group compared with the placebo group (P < 0.04). No significant changes were observed in general well-being between the placebo and the DHT group. Serum concentrations of LH, FSH, E2, T, and SHBG decreased significantly during DHT treatment. Treatment with DHT did not affect liver function or the lipid profile. Hemoglobin concentrations increased from 146.0 +/- 8.2 to 154.8 +/- 11.4 g/liter, and hematocrit from 43.5 +/- 2.5% to 45.8 +/- 3.4% (P < 0.001). Prostate weight and prostate-specific antigen levels did not change during the treatment. No major adverse events were observed. Transdermal administration of DHT improves sexual function and may be a useful alternative for androgen replacement. As estrogens are thought to play a role in the pathogenesis of prostate hyperplasia, DHT may be beneficial, compared with aromatizing androgens, in the treatment of aging men.

Publication Types:
Clinical Trial
Randomized Controlled Trial




Biochemistry. 2003 Nov 25;42(46):13735-45. Related Articles, Links


Binding analysis of 1alpha- and 17alpha-dihydrotestosterone derivatives to homodimeric sex hormone-binding globulin.

Metzger J, Schnitzbauer A, Meyer M, Soder M, Cuilleron CY, Hauptmann H, Huber E, Luppa PB.

Institute for Clinical Chemistry and Pathobiochemistry, Klinikum rechts der Isar der Technischen Universitat Munchen, Ismaninger Strasse 22, 81675 Munich, Germany.

Binding studies of the interaction of immobilized 1alpha- and 17alpha-aminoalkyl derivatives of 5alpha-dihydrotestosterone (DHT) with purified N-deglycosylated homodimeric human sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG) were performed using a surface plasmon resonance biosensor. These 1alpha- and 17alpha-derivatives with spacers of appropriate lengths between the amine function and the steroid ring skeleton enabled privileged, sterically undisturbed, interactions of either the 17- or 3-characteristic functional groups of DHT with SHBG. The association constants (K(a)1) for the binding of these immobilized DHT derivatives to the first binding site of SHBG, determined by SPR measurements, were 0.16 x 10(7) M(-1) for 17alpha-aminopropyl-17beta-hydroxy-5alpha-androstan-3-one (1), 1.64 x 10(7) M(-1) for 17alpha-aminocaproyl-17beta-hydroxy-5alpha-androstan-3-one (2), and 1.2 x 10(8) M(-1) for 1alpha-aminohexyl-17beta-hydroxy-5alpha-androstan-3-one (3). These values were compared with global K(a) data for the corresponding nonimmobilized DHT derivatives from equilibrium measurements using competitions with a tritiated testosterone tracer: the K(a) values were 1.25 x 10(7) M(-1) for 1, 1.50 x 10(7) M(-1) for 2, and 140 x 10(7) M(-1) for 3, confirming a remarkably high binding affinity of this latter compound for SHBG. A global fitting analysis of the biosensor data revealed that the interaction of the three immobilized steroids with SHBG was best described by a kinetic model assuming two structurally independent binding sites. This hypothesis of a bivalent binding model was also directly suggested by a dual fluorescent signal observed by the flow cytometry analysis of SHBG immobilized as a hybrid complex binding simultaneously two 1alpha-aminohexyl DHT ligands, one formed by 3, covalently coupled to phycoerythrin-labeled latex microspheres, and the other by the same DHT derivative, coupled to a fluorescein derivative (4).

PMID: 14622020 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

1: Brain Res. 2002 Sep 6;948(1-2):102-7. Related Articles, Links


Sex hormone binding globulin facilitates female sexual receptivity except when coupled to dihydrotestosterone.

Caldwell JD, Hofle S, Englof I.

Department of Biomedical Sciences, University of Illinois College of Medicine, 1601 Parkview Avenue, Rockford, IL 61107-1897, USA. [email protected]

Sex hormone binding globulin (SHBG) is produced in brain where it is often co-localized with oxytocin. Infusions of SHBG into the medial preoptic area-anterior hypothalamus facilitate female sexual receptivity. SHBG has receptors on plasma membranes of the prostate gland where binding of the 5alpha-reduced androgen dihydrotestosterone (DHT) by SHBG acts as an antagonist on SHBG receptors. This study attempted to determine whether pre-coupling DHT to SHBG would inhibit SHBG-induced facilitation of female sexual receptivity. Ovariectomized rats were injected daily with 0.75 microg estradiol benzoate for 3 days. On the fourth day after a pre-infusion baseline behavioral test animals were infused with 1 microl per side through bilateral cannulae with SHBG (1.77x10(-6) M), SHBG coupled to DHT (SHBG-DHT; 1.66x10(-6) M DHT), with DHT alone or with artificial cerebrospinal fluid vehicle. As before, SHBG significantly increased female sexual receptivity when infused into the medial preoptic area-anterior hypothalamus. Rats infused with SHBG-DHT had significantly lower sexual receptivity. Therefore, whereas SHBG in the medial preoptic area facilitated female sexual behavior, SHBG coupled to DHT did not. DHT itself did not significantly affect sexual receptivity. Pre-coupling DHT to SHBG eliminated the facilitative effect of SHBG on female sexual receptivity just as DHT inhibits SHBG activity at prostate SHBG receptors suggesting that central receptors for SHBG are similar to those demonstrated in the periphery. Copyright 2002 Elsevier Science B.V.

PMID: 12383960 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
Manu20

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There was one member who used it during post cycle in the cycle log section...I don't know if he got any blood work done.
 
Dwight Schrute

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As I have posted before:



(1) Acta Endocrinol (Copenh) 1974 Oct;77(2):380-6

The effect of mesterolone administration to normal men on the pituitary-testicular function.

Aakvaag A, Stromme SB.


"The reduction in total plasma testosterone and the unchanged free testosterone is probably due to reduced testosterone binding to SHBG."

So even though mesterolone competes with test for SHBG binding, the diplaced test is cleared from the system faster, resulting in no net change of free test, since as the authors point out:

"the MCR [metabolic clearance rate] is inversely related to the degree of protein binding."


Winstrol does the same thing. When 10mg/day was administered to normal men for 14 days, total testosterone, shbg and free test were all essentially cut in half. (1) Total test went from 22 to 10 nmol/L; SHBG from 21 to 10 nmol/L; and free test from 398 to 231 pmol/L. So again, even though total test and SHBG are dropping, so is free test.

That is kind of the point of having bound and loosely bound test. Up to a point anyway. An excess of SHBG can be bad. Free test is just metabolized too quickly, with the rate of metabolization increasing in proportion to the concentration of free test.

SHBG is interesting in itself. It appears to be much more than just a passive transporter for sex steroids in the blood. It has been shown for instance to both block the proliferative action of estrogen in mammary tissue in vitro, and prevent the normal upregulation of the progesterone receptor caused by estradiol (2). There evidently just hasn't been enough research done to know if there is any clinical significance to these actions


(1) Clin Endocrinol (Oxf) 1984 Jul;21(1):49-55

Alteration of hormone levels in normal males given the anabolic steroid stanozolol.

Small M, Beastall GH, Semple CG, Cowan RA, Forbes CD.

(2) Mol Cell Endocrinol 2001 Feb 14;172(1-2):31-6

The control of progesterone receptor expression in MCF-7 breast cancer cells: effects of estradiol and sex hormone-binding globulin (SHBG).

Fazzari A, Catalano MG, Comba A, Becchis M, Raineri M, Frairia R, Fortunati N.
 
Dwight Schrute

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So even if it does, the effect is nil.
 
Dwight Schrute

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That quote says nothing about post cycle. Plus I have never seen any evidence that actually shows decreasing SHBG has any beneficial effect at all. In fact the only evidence out there shows that it has zero effect.
I still would like to see the studies on increased estrone levels from Nolvadex. Even if it does the receptors are seclectively being blocked so the point is moot.
 

stream187

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Thanks for all the replies.. some knowledgeable people here :)
Anyway, I was thinking about the following m1t/4ad cycle, based on what I've read here and on the HST forums. I've found that muscle definition really improves while doing HST, so with summer coming I'm gonna do a couple of cycles:

week1 - 15R: nothing
week2 - 10R: nothing
week3 - 10R: 10(15?)mg m1t/ 100mg 4AD transdermal
week4 - 5R: 15(20?)mg m1t/ 100mg 4AD transdermal
week5 - 5R: PCT(6oxo or nolva if I can get it and milk thistle)
week6 - 5RM: 15(20?)mg m1t/ 100mg 4AD transdermal
week7 - 5RM: 15(20?)mg m1t/ 100mg 4AD transdermal
week8 - 5RM: PCT or switch to M5AA
week9 - 5RM: PCT or switch to M5AA
week10 -rest or if switched to M5AA -> PCT for a couple of weeks

Basicly I'm debating wether or not to do the M5AA so close after the m1t.
Some background:
height: 1.80m (6foot?)
weight: 85kg (170lbs)
I've took some 1ad in the past year without really knowing what it was. Made some nice gains on it.
Used to be real fat before puberty, most of it is gone now but still have that smooth look and some hard to get rid of fat pockets, so water retention/bloating is an issue. That's also why I'm not taking too much 4AD.
 
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