Stacking methyls is OK.

[hogiejoe]

so what do you know? it sems to me: toxicity of M1T+Toxicity of MDien=the sum of the two. This seems logical to me so why would someone say that combining would make the Toxicity exponentially worse?

 

[Matthew D]

NO too much stress on your liver..

 

[Longdog]

In my opinion, it's just dumb to stack methyls. There are plenty on non-methylated choices to stack with. Why risk long term health for such a small difference? Unless you are a competitive BB & make your living that way, it's not worth the risk.

 

[hogiejoe]

In my opinion, it's just dumb to stack methyls. There are plenty on non-methylated choices to stack with. Why risk long term health for such a small difference? Unless you are a competitive BB & make your living that way, it's not worth the risk.

But what if you wanted the combined effects of 2 methyls. i dont see why that would be bad if you lowered the doses of each. i personally dont see the logic when someone says stacking methyls is so much worse. somehow do the 2 compounds interact with each other? if you take 5 mg of M1T and 3mgs of MDien then you would have the sum of the toxicity of those compounds combined. i havent done this nor do i plan to.

 

[Sticks]

Is taking 5 mgs of M1T, and 20 mgs M5aa really that much worse than just taking 20 mgs of M1T.

 

[lifted]

OMG, guys what are you having a hard time understanding here? You continue to post this same topic over and over again....

WE as a board do NOT advise it.....You as a person (that hopefully does their own research) should make your OWN decision....FROM the research that YOU do....okay?

I'm not trying to be a dickwad here, but these posts are getting out of hand and plain out ridiculous......you've already been told what the majority thinks time after time now......you're not going to get a different answer!!!

Believe me, if future research shows that its' okay to do, etc, then it WILL be posted.....dig it? LOL...

In the mean time if still undetermined, get your hands on an injectable of some sort....you can't go wrong!!!

 

[NPursuit]

The way I see it these compounds are too new and not enough testing has been done on them. It's your liver and you only get one. Why risk it? IMO using one of these compounds is risking enough.

 

[sifu]

What week of test are you on jergo

 

[lifted]

What week of test are you on jergo

oh you mean my imaginary cycle? Well, I cut it short the other day...I did a full 6 and a half weeker w/o anything....

I'll be sure to post my imaginary cycle result pics soon!!!

 

[hogiejoe]

well i guess jergo doesnt advise it. but obviously not everyone in the forum agrees with that like the poll is beginning to suggest. but you know what they say jergo, "an empty can rattles the most." no offense but do you have any reason to say it is so bad. i understand npursuit as he errs on the side of caution but you insist it is horrible. Basically i am just asking why you say this.

 

[lifted]

well i guess jergo doesnt advise it. but obviously not everyone in the forum agrees with that like the poll is beginning to suggest. but you know what they say jergo, "an empty can rattles the most." no offense but do you have any reason to say it is so bad. i understand npursuit as he errs on the side of caution but you insist it is horrible. Basically i am just asking why you say this.

Yes, basically I'm w/ NP on the issue.....just being cautious bro....that being your health and so on. I don't even like using one at a time alike NP as well....

Sorry if I Came off like an a-hole bro, that wasn't my intent....I'm just trying to shout reason when it comes to this topic.....

IF you do decide to do it in your best judgement, make sure that you get your levels, etc tested...we don't need any members running into any problems....

 

[hogiejoe]

i agree with you jergo but i just wanted to reap the opinions of all these intelligent freaks. is that how you spell reap?

 

[lifted]

i agree with you jergo but i just wanted to reap the opinions of all these intelligent freaks. is that how you spell reap?

dunno...those ones with the ea/ae/ee combos mess my brain up, LOL....

 

[jweave23]

ok, let me say this:

You need to rephrase and pinpoint the intent of this thread. If you want everyone's opinion.....fine. If you want hard data and factual information, do more research and/or ask specifically for studies or where to find them, not what people "think" about it.

With that said I also agree that, in general, it is not advisable to take two methyl's together. Surely it can and has been done with success, but so have many other things in this interest, such as dbol bridging for instance.

Bottom line = we do not have too much data on how the stacking of two methylated substances exactly affects the liver (and other areas of the body) in the short and long term.

 

[hogiejoe]

jweave-

it is just a debate and people can state their opinions on the experiences of themselves or others. i am asking for real world feedback not studies. that is the intent of this thread. the purpose of the title is to gain attention, i dont think someone would just read the title and thats it. then again...

 

[propho]

I ain't no scientist but I figure if you take less of each when stacking there should be no problem.. main thing being M5aa .. stacking some things that do the exact same thing to me would likely be pointless.. however when there are people taking 100mgs of 1 thing and someone taking 50mgs of 2 things... i don't see how you can weigh the 50mgs as more toxic on your liver than the 100mgs..

 

[NPursuit]

I ain't no scientist but I figure if you take less of each when stacking there should be no problem.. main thing being M5aa .. stacking some things that do the exact same thing to me would likely be pointless.. however when there are people taking 100mgs of 1 thing and someone taking 50mgs of 2 things... i don't see how you can weigh the 50mgs as more toxic on your liver than the 100mgs..

Because different compounds have different toxicity levels. 50mg of M14ADD is not necessarily as toxic as 50mg of M1T.

 

[Sldge]

without a doubt M1T is the most toxic, hands down. If I were going to stack anything with M1T i would keep the dose to 5mgs tops.

I understand in not stating that it is a good idea to reccomend the stacking of 2 methyls together but I also think that most people will do it anyway if they want and that if they are going to do it atleast they could try and do it the safest way possible. with this board being such a great board for knowledge, when someone thinks of trying something new, telling them not to becuase it is bad and just shutting them out isnt always the answer.

However, if you wanted to stack two methyl together before you even think of doing it, you should have blood work done precycle to make sure you have no preexisting conditions, and if you cant do that then you really are not concerned with health or sfetly at all and should not be helped. there is no reason in the world why everyone shouldnt be getting regular blood work done all the time.

doing it 3-4 times per year, while using compounds like this is a small price to pay to know how your body is doing.

 

[MarcusG]

Sledge, to my knowledge, you've release just one test result 2 days into m-dien at the 1fast forums about m-dien (which wasn't supersoldiers). Didn't you say that you were going to release more results in your newsletter?

 

[Sldge]

I had 3 different blood work for MD, Prolangtum, SS, as well as myself. I also posted m1t stacked with m14add, i did m14add stacked with m5aa and i just got some back for m14add with m5aa on a over 30 male.

you may have to search through a few different threads but ill try and get it all together for the newsletter. i wanted to wait till i had more info on M4OHT, 4OHT Deca and 7a-methyl-19nordiol.

 

[lancelot]

M4OHT, 4OHT Deca and 7a-methyl-19nordiol.

are you planning on bringing these out soon? that would be so dope!

 

[CEDeoudes59]

i believe he is

 

[hogiejoe]

moht, i am definetely willing to give that one a try

 

[FBWrestlerNerd]

related question to this thread I guess....
For the people against stacking methyls, what do you think of running them seperatly back to back. I.E. 2 weeks of MD followed by 2 weeks of M1t or something like that. Thanks.

 

[Sldge]

If you dont want to stack methyls then i would think back to back would be a good replacement. You could do an 8 week cycle with revolving methyls every 2,3 or 4 weeks.

I am planning on all of those as long as I have the time to do them. I have a study on 7a-methyl-19nordiol, showing it to be a non toxic methyl. Which is very nice for those not wanting to stack methyls.

So hopefully we can get this ban delayed a few more months, so we can try these out.

 

[fieyaa]

If you dont want to stack methyls then i would think back to back would be a good replacement. You could do an 8 week cycle with revolving methyls every 2,3 or 4 weeks.

I am planning on all of those as long as I have the time to do them. I have a study on 7a-methyl-19nordiol, showing it to be a non toxic methyl. Which is very nice for those not wanting to stack methyls.

So hopefully we can get this ban delayed a few more months, so we can try these out.

whats 7a-methyl-19nordiol similar to?

 

[FBWrestlerNerd]

thanks ds, that seems like it would work better for gains without blowing out your liver. Also, I am hopping it could keep the sides down from each by swithing whenver ones particular sides become to annoying.

 

[B5150]

If you dont want to stack methyls then i would think back to back would be a good replacement. You could do an 8 week cycle with revolving methyls every 2,3 or 4 weeks.

But this would still expose the liver to hepatotoxic substances for an even greater time, more than the usual 4-6 weeks. Yes, we are switching out the types of methyl androgens over an 8 weeks period, but we would therefore be exposing the liver to methyls over a longer period. Where does one draw the line between hepatotoxic load/exposure and duration. Just some thoughts.

 

[silverSurfer]

How is the toxicity of a methylated compound determined? Is it a combination of the non-methylated compound and the methylation? Is it based on blood work from test subjects? Are there some special attributes in a methylated compound to look for?
Perhaps I should search...

 

[bioman]

But this would still expose the liver to hepatotoxic substances for an even greater time, more than the usual 4-6 weeks. Yes, we are switching out the types of methyl androgens over an 8 weeks period, but we would therefore be exposing the liver to methyls over a longer period. Where does one draw the line between hepatotoxic load/exposure and duration. Just some thoughts.

Have to agree with 5150 here. I would think that in the grand scheme of things duration is going to be as important as dosage for hepatotoxicity unless the dosage is extremely low in which case we wouldn't see effective gains.

So far it seems that its M1T that we need to be the most cautious of. Stacking it with other methyls or even alternating it is just asking for trouble.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

I ain't no scientist but I figure if you take less of each when stacking there should be no problem.. main thing being M5aa .. stacking some things that do the exact same thing to me would likely be pointless.. however when there are people taking 100mgs of 1 thing and someone taking 50mgs of 2 things... i don't see how you can weigh the 50mgs as more toxic on your liver than the 100mgs..

oh boy....

 

[sifu]

I ain't no scientist but I figure if you take less of each when stacking there should be no problem.. main thing being M5aa .. stacking some things that do the exact same thing to me would likely be pointless.. however when there are people taking 100mgs of 1 thing and someone taking 50mgs of 2 things... i don't see how you can weigh the 50mgs as more toxic on your liver than the 100mgs..

You are kidding right.

 

[propho]

well what I mean is some of the methylated compounds aren't as toxic as others.. we all know m1t is supposed to be the worst some people see effects off of 5mg's others are taking 15mgs or 20mgs.. so my main question is that.. just because one doesn't see the effects of one compound it's 'safe' to boost the amount taken?? so what would be any different than taking m1t at 5mgs if it does have an effect on you and taking with that m5aa preworkout or stacking everyday with m1,4add which has been found not to be that harmful on your liver.. i'm not saying ALL methyls should be stacked together at high doses.. it just seems like everyone is saying that no matter what the case is stacking is bad..

 

[Dwight Schrute]

Nobody knows the toxicity of ANY of these as the effects have not been seen. Blood tests during a cycle does not show damage and is no way to register the toxicity of different substance. Try taking Tylenol and see what your enzyme profile looks like. Does that mean they are hepatoxic? No. Liver damage doesn't occur during a cycle, it happen months and sometimes years after. Hepatic problems do not develope during your cycle so your assumption that these things are "not as toxic" has no basis whatsoever.

And yes, no matter what the case is, stacking is bad. I suggest you do a little research first because discussing this further.

 

[TheManGuy]

what about stacking some of the other methyls with 4ohn? 4ohn is supposed to not be hard on the liver at all, as opposed to the other methyls. That's what Big Cat says anyway.

Since it is basically oral deca, wouldn't it be best used for stacking?

 

[CEDeoudes59]

Perhaps, but remember it surely doesn't resemble the illicit Deca

 

[Jstrong20]

I'm not touching this subject again. LOL

 

[propho]

well why did you ressurect it??

 

[Cogar]

what about stacking some of the other methyls with 4ohn? 4ohn is supposed to not be hard on the liver at all, as opposed to the other methyls. That's what Big Cat says anyway.

Since it is basically oral deca, wouldn't it be best used for stacking?

I missed this comment the first time around. I am not aware of any data measuring the hepatotoxicity of any of the new methyls including M 1-T, M4OHN, and M4OHT. Although the latter two produce fewer adverse symptoms that does not prove anything regarding what they do to a person's liver (if anything). When you stack them, it just makes things more unpredictable--if you can make an unknown effect "more unpredictable."

 

[JerseyDevil]

Ask yourself this question. When was the last time you heard of a knowledgable gear user stacking anadrol and dbol, even in reduced doses?

 

[Strateg0s]

no matter what the case is, stacking is bad.

I agree if you meant, "no matter what the case, using methylated steroids will be hepatotoxic." Of course the hepatotoxicity from stacking methylated steroids will be cumulative, since each of these is engaged by the liver as a poison, regardless of what the overall anabolic effects are. But there is no reason to presume that stacking methyls multiplies the toxicity. Taking, say, 5mg of M1T + 5mg of M4OHN + 5mg of M5AA + one Bud Light would be waaay softer on your liver than taking 15mg of M1T. My point is that by saying that stacking is always bad the implication that it is worse than the use of a single substance: this is manifestly false. It depends on which chemicals are being stacked and the amounts thereof. --- Whether stacking methyls is foolish for the reason that the benefits are not cumulative, while the risks are, well, that is another discussion http://anabolicminds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=16800.

 

[Ironchef]

bump on that last one

 

[Dwight Schrute]

My point is that by saying that stacking is always bad the implication that it is worse than the use of a single substance: this is manifestly false.

Your point shows you have no idea how the liver operates.

Metabolites are usually more toxic than the actual substance itself. With one substance you have metabolites from 1 substance whether its a low dosage or not. Add another substance to that mix and you double the amount of active metabolites. You also double the amount of nutrients needed by the liver (mainly glycine, cysteine, glutamine, methionine, taurine, glutamic acid and aspartic acid).

Also if this occurs you can have Phase I and Phase II of liver detoxification that are out of balance and a build up of intermediate metabolites can occur which in turn can lead to tissue damage and eventually disease.

 

[lancelot]

Your point shows you have no idea how the liver operates.

Metabolites are usually more toxic than the actual substance itself. With one substance you have metabolites from 1 substance whether its a low dosage or not. Add another substance to that mix and you double the amount of active metabolites. .

wouldn't that depend on the specific metabolite? Than that statement of ph toxicity would go right back to the actual compound or ph. So on the question of toxicity, i think it's more important to look at the specific ph in use and it's metabolite(s) rather than the blanket statement that stacking is worse than single ph use. for example, is 20mg M1T less toxic to the liver than stacking 10mg M1T with 10mgM4OHN?

 

[Strateg0s]

All methyls are damaging, and stacking them is not prudent, but the hepatotoxicity of a stack is still related to the choice and dosages of methyls (how could it possibly be otherwise?). So it just isn't the case that any stack of methyls (no matter how low the dosages) is worse than the use of any single methyl (no matter what the dose). The point is obvious.

Stacking methyls far from A-OK, but it is hyperbolic to liken every case to bathing in plutonium. I understand that you are trying to encourage people to err on the side of caution, but my point is that some (stupid) people may walk away with the impression that they're better off taking 20mg of M1T than taking 5mg of M1T + low doses of say M4OHN and MD. I'm pretty sure that we're in agreement that the former choice is much worse than the latter. So I may as well leave it at that.

 

[Dwight Schrute]

wouldn't that depend on the specific metabolite? Than that statement of ph toxicity would go right back to the actual compound or ph. So on the question of toxicity, i think it's more important to look at the specific ph in use and it's metabolite(s) rather than the blanket statement that stacking is worse than single ph use. for example, is 20mg M1T less toxic to the liver than stacking 10mg M1T with 10mgM4OHN?

A certain substance doens't have just one metabolite, it usually has many. And you don't even know what the metabolites for any of these are because there has been ZERO clinical data published on these.

As for your latter question, yes it could be as the number of metabolites the liver had to deal with could doulbe and maybe triple. Even though the dose is low you can create an imbalance in different phases of detoxification and a buildup of certain metabolites could occur.

 

[DR.D]

wouldn't that depend on the specific metabolite? Than that statement of ph toxicity would go right back to the actual compound or ph. So on the question of toxicity, i think it's more important to look at the specific ph in use and it's metabolite(s) rather than the blanket statement that stacking is worse than single ph use. for example, is 20mg M1T less toxic to the liver than stacking 10mg M1T with 10mgM4OHN?

Yes, it does. All combonations of methyls could be stacked responsibly but the toxicity of the individual metabolites and the ratios that would be generated from each parent steroid would need to be determined before deciding the dose of each in the stack. It's easier than it sounds, because often, some of the intermediates are shared and many of the end metabolites are identical or of similar toxicity (DHT relateds)

 

[Dwight Schrute]

All methyls are damaging, and stacking them is not prudent, but the hepatotoxicity of a stack is still related to the choice and dosages of methyls (how could it possibly be otherwise?). So it just isn't the case that any stack of methyls (no matter how low the dosages) is worse than the use of any single methyl (no matter what the dose). The point is obvious.

Stacking methyls far from A-OK, but it is hyperbolic to liken every case to bathing in plutonium. I understand that you are trying to encourage people to err on the side of caution, but my point is that some (stupid) people may walk away with the impression that they're better off taking 20mg of M1T than taking 5mg of M1T + low doses of say M4OHN and MD. I'm pretty sure that we're in agreement that the former choice is much worse than the latter. So I may as well leave it at that.

Its related to choice and dosage of methyl? How about conversion rate of metabolites and also the number metabolized? Do yo know how potent they are on any of these? No. M4OHN is could have 1 potent metabolite whle M1T could have 10. It could be the complete opposite too. Just because the target hormone isn't "potent" in terms of gains is far from saying its "less toxic". M5AA could be harsher than M1T but since everyone thinks M1T is so "potent" because of the gains they see they assume its the harshest. The point being is that you or anyone on these boards do not know how potent they are because there is zero clinical data. Increasing the substance increases the chances of those metabolites to be toxic. Its ridiculous to tell anyone that stacking them isn't that bad and its only the dosages that are invloved.

 

[bioman]

Given that we have zilch for data regarding methyls at this point, Bobo's conclusions are not only wise and pragmatic but based on known observations of metabolite interactions of known methylated steroids. Interactions of Dbol metabolites anyone?

High doses of M1T are never ok in my book. Comparing that to stacking methyls is kinda like saying that mixing a little of Mystery Substance X and Mystery Substance Y "should" be ok because we know Mystery Substance Z is probably worse than X and Y. We don't really know for sure but what the hell, life's too short to wait for data. lol

Unfortunately I think we'll be seeing clinical data from methyl PH users who went overboard. By the sound of things the first subjects should be sparking the interest of the research community any day now.

 

[DR.D]

Nobody else is going to do this in a clinical effort, unless somebody is trying to get new drug approval from the FDA. What this board should do is form a committee to investigate common drugs, metabolites, and try to extrapolate the best data we can using research info on the rest. Then, interactions could be predicted from a chart of qualitative compound metabolites and quantitative ratios based on fairly std doses. I don't have time to tackle it alone, but would be willing to take a portion of the assignment if Bobo saw fit to perform such a study. Or else we can just keep getting our enzymes checked and saying little prayers before we go off to another sleepless night.