View Poll Results: So what do you think?

Voters
1035. This poll is closed
  • yes

    92 8.89%
  • no

    943 91.11%

Stacking methyls is OK.

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by propho
    I ain't no scientist but I figure if you take less of each when stacking there should be no problem.. main thing being M5aa .. stacking some things that do the exact same thing to me would likely be pointless.. however when there are people taking 100mgs of 1 thing and someone taking 50mgs of 2 things... i don't see how you can weigh the 50mgs as more toxic on your liver than the 100mgs..

    oh boy....
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  2. Quote Originally Posted by propho
    I ain't no scientist but I figure if you take less of each when stacking there should be no problem.. main thing being M5aa .. stacking some things that do the exact same thing to me would likely be pointless.. however when there are people taking 100mgs of 1 thing and someone taking 50mgs of 2 things... i don't see how you can weigh the 50mgs as more toxic on your liver than the 100mgs..



    You are kidding right.
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  3. well what I mean is some of the methylated compounds aren't as toxic as others.. we all know m1t is supposed to be the worst some people see effects off of 5mg's others are taking 15mgs or 20mgs.. so my main question is that.. just because one doesn't see the effects of one compound it's 'safe' to boost the amount taken?? so what would be any different than taking m1t at 5mgs if it does have an effect on you and taking with that m5aa preworkout or stacking everyday with m1,4add which has been found not to be that harmful on your liver.. i'm not saying ALL methyls should be stacked together at high doses.. it just seems like everyone is saying that no matter what the case is stacking is bad..

  4. Nobody knows the toxicity of ANY of these as the effects have not been seen. Blood tests during a cycle does not show damage and is no way to register the toxicity of different substance. Try taking Tylenol and see what your enzyme profile looks like. Does that mean they are hepatoxic? No. Liver damage doesn't occur during a cycle, it happen months and sometimes years after. Hepatic problems do not develope during your cycle so your assumption that these things are "not as toxic" has no basis whatsoever.

    And yes, no matter what the case is, stacking is bad. I suggest you do a little research first because discussing this further.
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  5. what about stacking some of the other methyls with 4ohn? 4ohn is supposed to not be hard on the liver at all, as opposed to the other methyls. That's what Big Cat says anyway.

    Since it is basically oral deca, wouldn't it be best used for stacking?
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  6. Perhaps, but remember it surely doesn't resemble the illicit Deca

  7. I'm not touching this subject again. LOL

  8. well why did you ressurect it??

  9. Quote Originally Posted by TheManGuy
    what about stacking some of the other methyls with 4ohn? 4ohn is supposed to not be hard on the liver at all, as opposed to the other methyls. That's what Big Cat says anyway.

    Since it is basically oral deca, wouldn't it be best used for stacking?
    I missed this comment the first time around. I am not aware of any data measuring the hepatotoxicity of any of the new methyls including M 1-T, M4OHN, and M4OHT. Although the latter two produce fewer adverse symptoms that does not prove anything regarding what they do to a person's liver (if anything). When you stack them, it just makes things more unpredictable--if you can make an unknown effect "more unpredictable."

  10. Ask yourself this question. When was the last time you heard of a knowledgable gear user stacking anadrol and dbol, even in reduced doses?

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    no matter what the case is, stacking is bad.
    I agree if you meant, "no matter what the case, using methylated steroids will be hepatotoxic." Of course the hepatotoxicity from stacking methylated steroids will be cumulative, since each of these is engaged by the liver as a poison, regardless of what the overall anabolic effects are. But there is no reason to presume that stacking methyls multiplies the toxicity. Taking, say, 5mg of M1T + 5mg of M4OHN + 5mg of M5AA + one Bud Light would be waaay softer on your liver than taking 15mg of M1T. My point is that by saying that stacking is always bad the implication that it is worse than the use of a single substance: this is manifestly false. It depends on which chemicals are being stacked and the amounts thereof. --- Whether stacking methyls is foolish for the reason that the benefits are not cumulative, while the risks are, well, that is another discussion Stacking question - very simple.

  12. bump on that last one

  13. Quote Originally Posted by Strateg0s
    [color=black] My point is that by saying that stacking is always bad the implication that it is worse than the use of a single substance: this is manifestly false.

    Your point shows you have no idea how the liver operates.

    Metabolites are usually more toxic than the actual substance itself. With one substance you have metabolites from 1 substance whether its a low dosage or not. Add another substance to that mix and you double the amount of active metabolites. You also double the amount of nutrients needed by the liver (mainly glycine, cysteine, glutamine, methionine, taurine, glutamic acid and aspartic acid).

    Also if this occurs you can have Phase I and Phase II of liver detoxification that are out of balance and a build up of intermediate metabolites can occur which in turn can lead to tissue damage and eventually disease.
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  14. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Your point shows you have no idea how the liver operates.

    Metabolites are usually more toxic than the actual substance itself. With one substance you have metabolites from 1 substance whether its a low dosage or not. Add another substance to that mix and you double the amount of active metabolites. .
    wouldn't that depend on the specific metabolite? Than that statement of ph toxicity would go right back to the actual compound or ph. So on the question of toxicity, i think it's more important to look at the specific ph in use and it's metabolite(s) rather than the blanket statement that stacking is worse than single ph use. for example, is 20mg M1T less toxic to the liver than stacking 10mg M1T with 10mgM4OHN?

  15. All methyls are damaging, and stacking them is not prudent, but the hepatotoxicity of a stack is still related to the choice and dosages of methyls (how could it possibly be otherwise?). So it just isn't the case that any stack of methyls (no matter how low the dosages) is worse than the use of any single methyl (no matter what the dose). The point is obvious.

    Stacking methyls far from A-OK, but it is hyperbolic to liken every case to bathing in plutonium. I understand that you are trying to encourage people to err on the side of caution, but my point is that some (stupid) people may walk away with the impression that they're better off taking 20mg of M1T than taking 5mg of M1T + low doses of say M4OHN and MD. I'm pretty sure that we're in agreement that the former choice is much worse than the latter. So I may as well leave it at that.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by lancelot
    wouldn't that depend on the specific metabolite? Than that statement of ph toxicity would go right back to the actual compound or ph. So on the question of toxicity, i think it's more important to look at the specific ph in use and it's metabolite(s) rather than the blanket statement that stacking is worse than single ph use. for example, is 20mg M1T less toxic to the liver than stacking 10mg M1T with 10mgM4OHN?
    A certain substance doens't have just one metabolite, it usually has many. And you don't even know what the metabolites for any of these are because there has been ZERO clinical data published on these.

    As for your latter question, yes it could be as the number of metabolites the liver had to deal with could doulbe and maybe triple. Even though the dose is low you can create an imbalance in different phases of detoxification and a buildup of certain metabolites could occur.
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  17. Quote Originally Posted by lancelot
    wouldn't that depend on the specific metabolite? Than that statement of ph toxicity would go right back to the actual compound or ph. So on the question of toxicity, i think it's more important to look at the specific ph in use and it's metabolite(s) rather than the blanket statement that stacking is worse than single ph use. for example, is 20mg M1T less toxic to the liver than stacking 10mg M1T with 10mgM4OHN?
    Yes, it does. All combonations of methyls could be stacked responsibly but the toxicity of the individual metabolites and the ratios that would be generated from each parent steroid would need to be determined before deciding the dose of each in the stack. It's easier than it sounds, because often, some of the intermediates are shared and many of the end metabolites are identical or of similar toxicity (DHT relateds)

  18. Quote Originally Posted by Strateg0s
    All methyls are damaging, and stacking them is not prudent, but the hepatotoxicity of a stack is still related to the choice and dosages of methyls (how could it possibly be otherwise?). So it just isn't the case that any stack of methyls (no matter how low the dosages) is worse than the use of any single methyl (no matter what the dose). The point is obvious.

    Stacking methyls far from A-OK, but it is hyperbolic to liken every case to bathing in plutonium. I understand that you are trying to encourage people to err on the side of caution, but my point is that some (stupid) people may walk away with the impression that they're better off taking 20mg of M1T than taking 5mg of M1T + low doses of say M4OHN and MD. I'm pretty sure that we're in agreement that the former choice is much worse than the latter. So I may as well leave it at that.


    Its related to choice and dosage of methyl? How about conversion rate of metabolites and also the number metabolized? Do yo know how potent they are on any of these? No. M4OHN is could have 1 potent metabolite whle M1T could have 10. It could be the complete opposite too. Just because the target hormone isn't "potent" in terms of gains is far from saying its "less toxic". M5AA could be harsher than M1T but since everyone thinks M1T is so "potent" because of the gains they see they assume its the harshest. The point being is that you or anyone on these boards do not know how potent they are because there is zero clinical data. Increasing the substance increases the chances of those metabolites to be toxic. Its ridiculous to tell anyone that stacking them isn't that bad and its only the dosages that are invloved.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  19. Given that we have zilch for data regarding methyls at this point, Bobo's conclusions are not only wise and pragmatic but based on known observations of metabolite interactions of known methylated steroids. Interactions of Dbol metabolites anyone?

    High doses of M1T are never ok in my book. Comparing that to stacking methyls is kinda like saying that mixing a little of Mystery Substance X and Mystery Substance Y "should" be ok because we know Mystery Substance Z is probably worse than X and Y. We don't really know for sure but what the hell, life's too short to wait for data. lol

    Unfortunately I think we'll be seeing clinical data from methyl PH users who went overboard. By the sound of things the first subjects should be sparking the interest of the research community any day now.

  20. Nobody else is going to do this in a clinical effort, unless somebody is trying to get new drug approval from the FDA. What this board should do is form a committee to investigate common drugs, metabolites, and try to extrapolate the best data we can using research info on the rest. Then, interactions could be predicted from a chart of qualitative compound metabolites and quantitative ratios based on fairly std doses. I don't have time to tackle it alone, but would be willing to take a portion of the assignment if Bobo saw fit to perform such a study. Or else we can just keep getting our enzymes checked and saying little prayers before we go off to another sleepless night.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Bobo
    Its related to choice and dosage of methyl? How about conversion rate of metabolites and also the number metabolized? Do yo know how potent they are on any of these? No. M4OHN is could have 1 potent metabolite whle M1T could have 10. It could be the complete opposite too. Just because the target hormone isn't "potent" in terms of gains is far from saying its "less toxic". M5AA could be harsher than M1T but since everyone thinks M1T is so "potent" because of the gains they see they assume its the harshest. The point being is that you or anyone on these boards do not know how potent they are because there is zero clinical data. Increasing the substance increases the chances of those metabolites to be toxic. Its ridiculous to tell anyone that stacking them isn't that bad and its only the dosages that are invloved.
    I wasn't basing my evaluation of M1T on its ability to pack on muscle, but the troubling results of bloodwork (SS, etc.). You are perfectly right that we have no idea of numbers or accurate estimates as to the relative toxicity of the metabolites.

    Indeed, it is better to err on the side of caution, especially when making general guidelines which anyone can come along and act upon them as though they were indisputable.

    Agreed.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by DR.D
    . . . .Or else we can just keep getting our enzymes checked and saying little prayers before we go off to another sleepless night.
    Although enzymes do not necessarily tell the whole story. As it so happens, PA posted the following relevant article over at BB.com:


    Title
    Ultrastructural changes induced by anabolic steroids in liver of trained rats.
    Author
    Gragera R; Saborido A; Molano F; Jimenez L; Muniz E; Megias A
    Organization
    Department of Cell Biology, Faculty of Biology, Complutensis University, Madrid, Spain.
    Publication Source
    Histology and histopathology, (1993 Jul) 8 (3) 449-55.
    Journal code: 8609357. ISSN: 0213-3911.




    Abstract
    The effects of anabolic steroid treatment in association with endurance training on biochemical serum parameters and liver ultrastructure have been investigated in male rats. Values of serum alanine aminotransferase, aspartate aminotransferase and alkaline phosphatase were not significantly affected by administration of high doses of fluoxymesterone or methylandrostanolone. Electron microscopic examination of hepatic tissue from treated animals revealed ultrastructural alterations of hepatocytes. The most prominent changes were swelling of mitochondria, which presented electron-lucent matrix and slightly defined cristae, and a marked increase in the number of lysosomes. These changes were evident in both sedentary and trained treated rats, indicating that liver cell damage is produced by anabolic-androgenic steroids despite the simultaneous realization of physical exercise. The alterations observed were not detected by means of conventional biochemical liver tests.
    For those who are interested, the thread is here:

    http://forum.bodybuilding.com/showth...hreadid=310358

  23. whats 7a-methyl-19nordiol similar to?
    Sound like it turns into Nilevar. Hmmm, except Nilevar is 17a not 7a.

    If it is anything like Nilevar though I don't think it will be all that great:

    http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/catnilevar.htm

  24. Quote Originally Posted by bioman
    Given that we have zilch for data regarding methyls at this point, Bobo's conclusions are not only wise and pragmatic but based on known observations of metabolite interactions of known methylated steroids. Interactions of Dbol metabolites anyone?

    High doses of M1T are never ok in my book. Comparing that to stacking methyls is kinda like saying that mixing a little of Mystery Substance X and Mystery Substance Y "should" be ok because we know Mystery Substance Z is probably worse than X and Y. We don't really know for sure but what the hell, life's too short to wait for data. lol

    Unfortunately I think we'll be seeing clinical data from methyl PH users who went overboard. By the sound of things the first subjects should be sparking the interest of the research community any day now.
    And of course we can preach this all day long, but those little pills are just too damn tempting to people looking to stay away from the needle, and they are going to suffer for it.

  25. Hey guys I really hate to bump this thread up since it seemed to go off in the wrong direction there but I have a concern for myself and for others about stacking M1t and M5.

    Well first of all thanks for this thread i'm not personally going to stack these together. I did however order M5 in intentions of stacking it with M1T.

    Why? Well read this description: http://customnutritionwarehouse.com/...products_id=29

    (Mods please delete that link if that's not allowed)

    Speaking of M1T, M5 can be stacked quite nicely with it. A unique property of M5 is that by stacking it with another anabolic such as M1T, one may be able to lower the dose of both M1T and M5, but still see synergistic effects (1+1=3).
    This is why I thought it would be okay to use two methyl's together. Not much research involved there I admit , but it seemed to make sense. I was figuring at 10mg M1t ED and 10-20mg of M5 pre-workout, that would be safe enough. Though I retract my thoughts and agree it's just not worth gambling, it's harder to find a liver than it is to build muscle.

    Anyways, should someone maybe have that description changed on the website if that's absolutely wrong to do?

  26. Quote Originally Posted by StriKing_Cobra
    it's harder to find a liver than it is to build muscle.
    your mind is in the right place, the muscle will come its not worth it if it feels risky. sometimes i think more people need to think that way.

  27. Quote Originally Posted by StriKing_Cobra
    Anyways, should someone maybe have that description changed on the website if that's absolutely wrong to do?
    It's true though. Synergism is the whole argument for stacking methyls. If your taking a methyl that really works, why take another one at the same time? The point may not be to get greedy in wanting more muscle, but to actually be safer by being able to get the same effects with less of the more toxic one being used. If 1+1=3, you're really playing it smarter and getting a better deal, but if 1+1=2, then you don't have synergism and you could be taking a risk. The only way to find out is with educated choices, experimentation, and blood work values.

  28. i've shot up from 245lbs to 265lbs in a little over 2 wks on just 10mg ED on M1t, I don't think I need much more help.

    If anyone does try stacking M1T and M5 , i'd like to see the results and how it worked and how safe it was.

  29. search for Beezlebub thread he combined the 2 i do believe
    My Little Site about Hair Loss & Anabolics-
    hair loss from steroids dot com

  30. Thanks for your help guys.

    BTW hello i'm SC, forgot to introduce myself, though I know a few guys over hear.

    PS Laurie Dhue is hot.....nice DSL's.
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