Safest PH with regards to toxicity vs gains
- 04-19-2004, 10:18 PM
Safest PH with regards to toxicity vs gains
I am somewhat new to the PH scene but I have a question about gains vs toxicity.
The new methyls that have been coming out are very interesting and I have tried several with good results from all I have tried. M1t, M5aa, and just starting M4OHN with mdien soon to follow.
My question is what PH would you GURU'S say has the best risk/reward ratio?
Obviously I am looking for compounds that actually work well, so lets not consider the weak "semi-worthless compounds" as I know there are a few of those out there. I would also consider IGF as I am sure this is probably the least damaging to the body.
I have heard great things about m1,4add however the effective dose seems to be in the 40-60mg range. I currently weigh 255, I have been as high as 287 and have been training most of my life. I am trying to make a comeback of sorts without breaking the law. I used to dance on the dark side but I had a run in with the law and unfortunately this is not an option.
I have managed to keep my organs in good shape after 5 years of juicing, and I don't want to trash them now. Looking for a little input here, Thanks.
- 04-19-2004, 10:46 PM
I'm not a guru, but i would say its safe to say that anything thats not methylated that gives good gains is the winner here.
- 04-19-2004, 10:59 PM
what PH would be the big winner in that category? Are these injectable or are the transdermals better. What PH would you think is the best non-methylated?
04-19-2004, 11:22 PM
04-19-2004, 11:22 PM
04-19-2004, 11:26 PM
A transdermal 1-ad and transdermal 4-ad whould be better than mag-10, but i can't say that for sure since i haven't taken it myself.
04-20-2004, 12:29 AM
My Plan is to try and get back to 280 or so probably using methyls and then try to use something safer to maintain.
Thanks for the input so far.
04-20-2004, 12:31 AM
04-20-2004, 12:36 AM
Ok injectables are gonna be better than transdermals (100% vs. 40% absorption). If you wanna go the legal route the injectables are legal possess, but not necessisarily legal to inject. 4AD-cyp or 4AD-prop would be like your Test base. 1-test-cyp is very strong at 200mg/eod. 5AA-cyp is supposed to be THE ****, but good luck finding any. 4-OHT-cyp or 4-OHT-deca should be available soon. www.designersupps.com
04-20-2004, 02:35 AM
I would say trans 4-ad is the safest pound for pound.
I think the conversion to test with 4ad is so low that the aromitization is not a problem.
However you still need the nolva on hand.
04-20-2004, 03:34 AM
While on 1400mg/week Pro-Sust (300mg 4AD-cyp+100mg4AD-prop/ml) 2 weeks in: Testosterone 1382.89; Cortisol 12.66; LH 0.00 FSH 0.00; Estradiol 85.90; Progesterone 0.57; Prolactin 16.48Originally Posted by Billy the kid
Aromitization might just be a problem for some.
04-20-2004, 02:17 PM
04-20-2004, 02:38 PM
04-20-2004, 02:43 PM
04-20-2004, 02:49 PM
LOL. I remember those nasty tasting things. ****ing licorice flavored crap pills. Hold under tongue or cheek for 45 minutes, ****, tasted like Yagermeister.Originally Posted by bioman
04-20-2004, 05:57 PM
04-20-2004, 06:06 PM
04-20-2004, 09:21 PM
good ol' 1test and 4AD takes the cake - nothing wrong with 15-20 lbs of quality gains in 4 weeks with a nice smooth ride out...
04-20-2004, 09:36 PM
04-20-2004, 09:54 PM
supersoldier, you are wrong. but this is a common myth i keep seeing pop up. "not necessarily legal to inject".
there is no crime to inject ANY substance that is legal. as long as a given PH remains legal, then injecting it (or water, koolaid, grape nehi or anything else) is not illegal.
frankly, even if a substance is ILLEGAL, it is POSSESSING/SELLING the substance that is illegal. the ACT of injecting is not illegal.
now, in some jurisdictions, being under the influence of certain controlled substances e.g. heroin is illegal, but there is
NOTHING ILLEGAL ABOUT INJECTING A PH.
period. end of story. i wish this myth would end.
fwiw, it is arguably illegal to MARKET a PH intended for injection. this could run the SELLER afoul of the FDA, but to my knowledge this has never happened.
however, that's tangential to the issue involving the end user.
i'll make this as simple as possible.
if a PH is legal to possess, it is legal to convert to an injectable, and it is legal to inject.
04-21-2004, 12:45 PM
wow, that is good to know jjjjd. i had been wondering thsat for a while. anyone else agree or have an opinion on this?
04-21-2004, 01:01 PM
I dont see how they can make injecting illegal. They sell pins at every pharmacy.
It is the substance you are injecting that may be controlled.
But, rolling papers are illegal if you have pot, they can add a paraphernalia charge.
Pins may be along those lines as well.
04-21-2004, 01:32 PM
I think injectables and needles are in a grey area, a "behind the counter" kind of thing, because unlike rolling papers and pills, the delivery method in and of itself can cause serious problems to dumb users...much worse than burning your lips on a joint or getting a stomach ache and the $hit$ from too much vitamin C.
I pretty sure the act of injecting anything isn't a crime in and of itself. It's the substance that can make the delivery method illegal, as Billy The Kid pointed out, and the advertising of OTC injectables is illegal as well, citing obvious potential for harm.
It may seem to long-term injectable users to be stupid and silly or a double standard, but read a few posts about embolisms, infections, and hitting veins by first-time users, and you'll see that it makes sense to limit access to injectables. As jjjd point out, they're not illegal though.
I know it's wishful thinking, but I wish there was some test you could take (no pun intended) like a gun-owner must take, in order to get a OTC card for PHs-->this would do three things:
1. Limit amount of irresonpsible use and use by minors of PHs
2. Allow PHs to continue to be sold w/o perscriptions or FDA intervention
3. Provide a source of funding (via a $10 fee for the card or class) for the supplement lobby to further protection of our rights.
04-21-2004, 03:18 PM
04-21-2004, 04:07 PM
04-21-2004, 05:15 PM
brodus, it is NOT a gray area. FOR THE END USER (i'll get to companies in a second)
it is black and white.
let me reiterate - if the SUBSTANCE is not prohibited then an END USER converting to an injectable and/or injecting is 100% legal.
now pins are a different. in SOME states, pins are OTC. in others, they require prescription.
even in states where they are OTC, pins could make a LEO suspicious. but they are not ILLEGAL. PERIOD. if he saw pins along with a bag of white powder (creatine) that might arguably justify a search based on P/C to believe you were possessing controlled substances. obviously, once he did a field test, he would realize the white powder was not controlled, but it would still be STUPID to place yourself in that situation. but it's not illegal.
pins CAN be paraphernalia *if* they are found in proximity TO illegal drugs, or with traces of illegal drugs in the barrel (e.g. heroin). in and of themselves, in states where they are OTC, they are not.
now, in regards to MARKETING injectablesm (like those who sell PH's in sterile solutions with rubber tops in a sealed vial), that is ARGUABLY illegal. to SELL. NOT to possess. it would be illegal under FDA reg's if the FDA could prove that the seller had enough knowledge/intent that these items were being injected, and he was selling them for this purpose.
but there is no jeapardy to the end user, because they are 100% legal to inject.
i totally agree Brodus, that the PH industry has been its own worst enemy.
they should have restrictred the sales of PH's to minors, they should have been more open about the risks, and they should have (imo) helped sponsor legislation to make it criminal to sell to minors.
but, they didn't
04-21-2004, 05:16 PM
SS AS far as I know Sledge stopped marketing those a while ago.
They are no longer listed on his site.
04-21-2004, 05:52 PM
like i said. i don't have a problem with it. i'm not the fda.
to my knowledge, the fda has never prosecuted anybody for selling injectable PH's.
but the point is they COULD. imo (from a legal standpoint) people should market powders and oral solutions. let the end user make an injectable if THEY want. that is entirely legal. set up a "Chinese Wall" (legal term). those who sell powders should not sell conversion supplies, and vice versa. that would be the intelligent way to go.
it's a pretty non-risky endeavor for the marketer to sell PH injectables. at worse, the FDA might issue a cease and desist order. i find it unlikely they would prosecute. but it's possible
04-21-2004, 06:18 PM
Agreed JJ but at the same time I think the times they are a changin'. FDA appears to be either getting more funding for enforcment or they're getting motivated under Bush's directives. Currently I think you're right and everything is legal but I get the feeling that won't last long.
It's no stretch of the imagination that they may add additional language added to the Biden Bill or others.
04-22-2004, 01:20 AM
You knoiw, if Systenhance works as advertised, then that would probably be the 'safest' PH stack in terms of systemic side effects. Some users say yes, so say no. Most agree it works for local delivery quite well, with some 'spillover' into the bloodstream.
Ive never tried it, but it looks nifty. (and expensive)
04-22-2004, 06:25 AM
Systenhance certainly could contribute to the Q-tip or turnip look (guys who only work upper body and have no legs).
i can just see all these guys using systenhance to get hyoooge guns and pecs. and they would have even smaller (proportionally speaking) back and legs.
that is if systenhance works systemically as claimed. i have NO idea.
04-22-2004, 06:25 AM
04-22-2004, 11:58 AM
I am extremely skeptical of the "localized" PH claim, for a variety of reasons, but primarily b/c, in my understanding, the enzymatic processes that convert PHs to actives don't occur in your biceps. I could be wrong there, but...I doubt you're going to see a bunch of turnips or roosters at the gym due to Sytenhance. I don't know if there is any legitimate research saying PH locals work.
I would love to hear what Bobo has to say about this.
04-22-2004, 12:03 PM
Oh...I love this. This is from my recent discussion with a producer/retailer of "Etched" a "localized" transdermal of hydroxytest and 7-oxo (like ab-solved + hydroxy). I am going to use it as a systemic, and I gave someone advice to this end. The producer/retailer said I was wrong. Here's the exchange:
ME: I did not know this. Thanks for answering.
You can understand my confusion if you ask the same questions I did:
If you're seeking to raise basal metabolic rate via T3 action, you're seeking a systemic uptake, correct?
Why does the site specific carrier alone cost twice as much as Etched?
to protect all sales of finished retail products
Why do other site specific products cost much more than Etched, when HydroxyTest is more expensive than 1T and certainly 4AD?
no clue, they aren't really unless they are 120ml vs. 60
Isn't the research behind localized delivery of Hydroxytest inconclusive?
04-23-2004, 01:38 AM
I am skeptical myself - but the two hormones in systenhance are 1test, which dosent need to convert, and 4AD, which is 95% as anabolic as test before conversion. So I suppose it could conceivably work. There's a member over on the avantlabs site who documented a very succesful systenhance cycle:I am extremely skeptical of the "localized" PH claim, for a variety of reasons, but primarily b/c, in my understanding, the enzymatic processes that convert PHs to actives don't occur in your biceps. I could be wrong there, but...I doubt you're going to see a bunch of turnips or roosters at the gym due to Sytenhance. I don't know if there is any legitimate research saying PH locals work.
It sounds promising - but if you look at the gains he made it does look like some 1test/4AD defiantely went systemic. He claims there were no systemic side effects, however.
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