PCT: please can someone explain why ATD is tapered 3,2,2,1?

[mark118]

I'm struggling to find a clear answer to why ATD is tapered down 3,2,2,1 in PCT. (I understand the last bit of tapering is to avoid rebounding oest)

For example, ATD was originally matched to Designer Supps SD as a suitable PCT which makes me curious as to whether it is sufficient (but thats another discussion in its own right).

This link

Superdrol - Pro-Hormone or Designer Steroid?

and many others, including reversitol, suggests the 3,2,2,1. However, at the start of PCT test is low (not sure where oestrogen is) and an AI stops the conversion of test to oestrogen.

yet, 6bromo (also an AI) is often dosed 100mg/day everyday for 4 weeks as a PCT.

please could someone explain why the ATD is dosed in this manner with regards to test and oestrogen levels?

I would really appreciate this!

 

[lennoxchi]

i always dose an AI after my SERM in a manner like you described for two reasons.

(1) if there is high levels of estrogen left after my SERM usage i want it under control. and do not want it to be the prominent hormone in my body while test is getting back to normal. this is often overlooked especially when people say things like "it's SD it doesn't aromitize", while that's true it doesn't, that doesn't mean that there won't be low test levels from being shutdown therefor making all other hormones the dominant ones

(2) the reason for the taper is because in this time frame you body is trying to return to it's normal levels of test and estro, whatever they might be. slowly ramping down will give your body a chance to make the changes it needs to for homeostasis to be achieved.


hope that helps....i am by no means an expert but i know a few things and the things i know work for me

 

[Liftingstud]

I'm struggling to find a clear answer to why ATD is tapered down 3,2,2,1 in PCT. (I understand the last bit of tapering is to avoid rebounding oest)

For example, ATD was originally matched to Designer Supps SD as a suitable PCT which makes me curious as to whether it is sufficient (but thats another discussion in its own right).

This link

Superdrol - Pro-Hormone or Designer Steroid?

and many others, including reversitol, suggests the 3,2,2,1. However, at the start of PCT test is low (not sure where oestrogen is) and an AI stops the conversion of test to oestrogen.

yet, 6bromo (also an AI) is often dosed 100mg/day everyday for 4 weeks as a PCT.

please could someone explain why the ATD is dosed in this manner with regards to test and oestrogen levels?

I would really appreciate this!

The WHOLE reason is to avoid estrogen rebound. In PCT most would taper all AIs if use them at all.

Yes, Rebound XT was orginally paired with SD but as we know now... IT DEF wasnt enough for SD. Yes some people recovered fine. Others had issues. During this time we also learned how powerful and suppressive SD really was.

Without trying to to get too detailed... The issue come when you take nonaromatizing aas. You are shutting down your natty test levels. So when test is no longer being produced which means there can be no conversion to estrogen. So end of your cycle test and estrogen are both low. So you jump off cycle...

Now you want to use a SERM to block the estrogen receptor and allow your test to start back up which will also cause a balancing out of estrogen too. The SERM will block against any neg effects such as gyno during this time.

Now what happens when you introduce an AI. Depending on when you add it is very important too. Due to the reason above many will add during the beginning of wk 3. This has given time for test and estrogen levels to naturally rise. And the AI is used to help modulate the conversion on test to estrogen.

What happens when you add an AI at the beginning of PCT or use it only as PCT. You let test levels rise but there is no conversion to estrogen due to the AI. So when you stop the AI you are left with high/normal test levels and very low estrogen. So BAM!!! Estrogen bounces back hard. Possibly also due to increase estrogen receptor density due to upregulation because of the low estrogen levels in the body.

With the taper you "hopefully" give your body time to adjust the estrogen levels as your taper the dosage.

As you can see this is why AIs can be dangerous during PCT. Yes you can get alway with it sometime. But at some point it might bite you and you get some rebound of estrogen. Hence the different thoughts on if an AI should or shouldnt be used in PCT. Also why MANY will say to always use a SERM for PCT.

Hope this helps. Def not an expert but have learned a lot through research over many many yrs.

 

[dpfisher]

The response to your question is the 6 bromo is being used incorrectly by not being tapered. You can find ATD products that say "take 3 a day for 4 weeks" but that doesn't mean it's right.

 

[mark118]

The WHOLE reason is to avoid estrogen rebound. In PCT most would taper all AIs if use them at all.

Yes, Rebound XT was orginally paired with SD but as we know now... IT DEF wasnt enough for SD. Yes some people recovered fine. Others had issues. During this time we also learned how powerful and suppressive SD really was.
.....
Hope this helps. Def not an expert but have learned a lot through research over many many yrs.

thanks for the info

im asking purely in the context of OTC only. it would seem as though the tapering is to avoid the rebound but i wonder if 75mg/day is too much as there is little test at the begining unless ATD also helps to kick start the HPTA in its own right

 

[Liftingstud]

thanks for the info

im asking purely in the context of OTC only. it would seem as though the tapering is to avoid the rebound but i wonder if 75mg/day is too much as there is little test at the begining unless ATD also helps to kick start the HPTA in its own right

OTC pct is not enough or appropriate, if that is what you are getting at. If you think you can run just an OTC AI with SD it is like playing Russian roulette... Yeah u can make it a few rounds but play long enough and you will get shot. Then you will be posting here asking how to get rid of or min your gyno. The facts just make it dumb to run an AI only pct, hence your normally OTC pct. Heck it would almost be better to do an old school taper of the aas in some cases.

 

[mark118]

OTC pct is not enough or appropriate, if that is what you are getting at. If you think you can run just an OTC AI with SD it is like playing Russian roulette... Yeah u can make it a few rounds but play long enough and you will get shot. Then you will be posting here asking how to get rid of or min your gyno. The facts just make it dumb to run an AI only pct, hence your normally OTC pct. Heck it would almost be better to do an old school taper of the aas in some cases.

thanks but if you read my original post, this isnt really the point of my thread

i want to know why ATD is tapered 3,2,2,1

 

[Liftingstud]

To reduce estrogen revound.

There was another idea with the AI that you ramp up starting wk 1 pct then taper so something like this:
1/2/2/3/2/2/1

the 3/2/2/1 is not set in stone you could go 2/1/1/eod if u wanted. Like I said the idea is to prevent rebound.

 

[ConcreteConny]

To reduce estrogen revound.

There was another idea with the AI that you ramp up starting wk 1 pct then taper so something like this:
1/2/2/3/2/2/1

the 3/2/2/1 is not set in stone you could go 2/1/1/eod if u wanted. Like I said the idea is to prevent rebound.

Theres the answer - clear and simple :thumbsup:

//CC

 

[SeanEH]

(1) if there is high levels of estrogen left after my SERM usage i want it under control. and do not want it to be the prominent hormone in my body while test is getting back to normal. this is often overlooked especially when people say things like "it's SD it doesn't aromitize", while that's true it doesn't, that doesn't mean that there won't be low test levels from being shutdown therefor making all other hormones the dominant ones

But if there's no test, and the hormone you've been taking doesn't aromatize, then there's no estrogen either. Later in PCT there could be some - only if test levels have come back up. And a SERM should mitigate the unwanted effects of that.

 

[Wilderbeast]

But if there's no test, and the hormone you've been taking doesn't aromatize, then there's no estrogen either. Later in PCT there could be some - only if test levels have come back up. And a SERM should mitigate the unwanted effects of that.

This is an incorrect assumption. Just because a steroid does not aromatize directly does NOT mean that your E2 could not rise out of control. When you take any androgen your body notices the rise in testosterone and tries to induce homeostasis by raising other hormones such as E2, regardless of whether the androgen in question can specifically aromatize or not. Endocrine function is very complex and varies constantly hour to hour / day to day. You have constant conversions going on in your endocrine system ie. test to estrogen, test to DHT, test to DHEA, DHEA to estrogen, DHEA to test .... and on and on. As an example of this I have seen bloodwork where the user took SD, a non-aromatizing steroid, and at the beginning of PCT their bloodwork showed low to no test and elevated E2. You CANNOT assume that you know your E2 is low even if test is. IMO you should approach each situation uniquely, but always create a proper plan to mitigate the effects of elevated prolactin, estrogen, and low test. Especially in PCT you should attempt to control E2 (not obliderate it) with something mild like a moderate dose of formestane or aromasin. Your goal should be to reach an ideal hormonal environment as quickly as possible; and that environment is not HIGH test and NO estrogen. You want a good balance, and that takes proper planning.

BEAST

 

[jbryand101b]

alot of good information in here.

the op's question was answered, otc pct can be enough, but it's a risk like one said. hell no pct can be enough for some.

but how long do you think you can drive with your eyes closed before you crash?

a.i.'s bind to aromatase. this will cause a increase in aromatase. this is a simply answered question with research on pct.

but if you dont want to taper of atd, and just stop at 3 caps e/d. go for it. hope you have better luck than driving with your eyes closed.

 

[Liftingstud]

This is an incorrect assumption. Just because a steroid does not aromatize directly does NOT mean that your E2 could not rise out of control. When you take any androgen your body notices the rise in testosterone and tries to induce homeostasis by raising other hormones such as E2, regardless of whether the androgen in question can specifically aromatize or not. Endocrine function is very complex and varies constantly hour to hour / day to day. You have constant conversions going on in your endocrine system ie. test to estrogen, test to DHT, test to DHEA, DHEA to estrogen, DHEA to test .... and on and on. As an example of this I have seen bloodwork where the user took SD, a non-aromatizing steroid, and at the beginning of PCT their bloodwork showed low to no test and elevated E2. You CANNOT assume that you know your E2 is low even if test is. IMO you should approach each situation uniquely, but always create a proper plan to mitigate the effects of elevated prolactin, estrogen, and low test. Especially in PCT you should attempt to control E2 (not obliderate it) with something mild like a moderate dose of formestane or aromasin. Your goal should be to reach an ideal hormonal environment as quickly as possible; and that environment is not HIGH test and NO estrogen. You want a good balance, and that takes proper planning.

BEAST

very nice!

Also have to factor in the test bound to SBH which can be released into the body. Remember most test in the body is bound and not free. This can be converted to estrogen due to the presence of the aas as the body tries to return to homeostasis. Hence exacty what you said... Taking a nonaromatizing aas and still having estrogen problems. I have seen lots if talk about this with abombs and why they can cause gyno even though it tech doesn't aromatize much like SD and many if these other mainstream aas.

 

[mark118]

thanks for the info guys

endocrinology sure is interesting, especially with regards to PH/DSs

 

[lennoxchi]

But if there's no test, and the hormone you've been taking doesn't aromatize, then there's no estrogen either. Later in PCT there could be some - only if test levels have come back up. And a SERM should mitigate the unwanted effects of that.

what happens when you stop taking the SERM?

 

[jbryand101b]

very nice!

Also have to factor in the test bound to SBH which can be released into the body. Remember most test in the body is bound and not free. This can be converted to estrogen due to the presence of the aas as the body tries to return to homeostasis. Hence exacty what you said... Taking a nonaromatizing aas and still having estrogen problems. I have seen lots if talk about this with abombs and why they can cause gyno even though it tech doesn't aromatize much like SD and many if these other mainstream aas.

much of the estrogenic activity from a-50 (abombs) comes from it not only binding to the a.r., but also because it binds to the estrogen receptor.
btw.

 

[Liftingstud]

much of the estrogenic activity from a-50 (abombs) comes from it not only binding to the a.r., but also because it binds to the estrogen receptor.
btw.

Hmmm I know it binds to androgen recep but not sure about the estrogen... Trying to remember from SR write up on the compound in MD a few months ago.... You may be right. But was using it to make a point about a nonaromatizing aas still binding to the AR, releasing test which can convert to estrogen which can lead to estrogen related problems oncycle.

 

[jbryand101b]

you are right about the test and estrogen thing. I agree with your point. probably a better example would of been pheraplex? lol.

but yea, with what little test is left in the body, it will become estrogen most likely.