Test/Nandrolone cycle break down "the why"

[crazyfool405]

Hey guys,

Sorry I have been MIA and a few probably thought I died from my last cycle LOL

Well I am alive and well and bloodwork was solid. So I'm good for another cycle.

However this thread is meant for everyone to understand "the why" of test and nandrolone stacking

All information taken from Seth Roberts Anabolic Pharmacology and put here for people to know why it works so great

You ready? Let's break it down piece by piece

Testosterone-

Well its pretty obvious why this is in the cycle to help libido and so forth. However,

Testosterone binds very well to SHBG and little is in the free state. With T administration 11b hydroxylase (enzyme that effects glucocorticoids and mineralcortiods) is inhibited. This means that a decrease in in free, total and cortisol binding globulin. With the inhibition of that enzyme results in the increase of deoxycorticosterone whis is responsible for the increase in sodium and water retention leading to the "bloat" and high BP

Along with this. Testosterone does not seem to affect thyroid binding globulin or thyroid binding prealbumin very much so the "leaning out" some people see with other AAS MAY not apply to this (every case is different)

Now we add nandrolone. Remember that T bind well to SHBG. Well Nandrolone reduces SHBG whi may "knock" some T as well as estrogen in the free state to be circulated.

With nandrolone administration there is no appartant inhibition of 11b hydroxylase so testosterone is causing the bloat that you get. But also with nandrolone you are inhibiting an enzyme called 21 hydroxylase. And that was shown through reductiom in NON bound cortisol (this is how 21 hydroxylase works) shown with chronic administration of nandrolone. This is also good because it can decrease the amount of deoxycorticosterone (which os increased with using test)


So a mineral corticoid imbalance may not be the reason for water retention


Now with Nandrolone you see increases in TBG and TBPA which shows a slight reduction in free thyroid hormones. For this reason it is why most people may want to include an oral steriod because most methylated steriods decrease TBG and therefor show an increase in TBPA which can "lean you out"
Now AI uses become important for any supraphysiological doses of test.

Howvwer many will argue AI vs SERM. The fact is. Gyno can still happen after ending cycle and pct with an AI due to nandrolones increase in estrone which can be comverted back to estradiol

To control estrone a SERM is warented. Estradiol an AI. So my opinion is something along the lines of

I3C and 6 bromo

Now if you want to use nandrolone and make it more potent in target tissues you can use a 5a reductase inhibitor (but this is a discussion better brought about another time) however it can increase the risk for androgenic sides

This is just one stack and remember they could be consequences of aldosterone (mineralcorticoid) inhibition so please cycle carefully

 

[Jstrong20]

Intersesting read but I hate deca. I'm more of a test/tren type of guy.

 

[nosnmiveins]

Intersesting read but I hate deca. I'm more of a test/tren type of guy.

me too me too!

 

[crazyfool405]

That one will be next. Gotta dig up more info on it

In th AP book by seth. There I not much detail about the 11b hydroxylase enzym nor TBG or TBPA to show possible synergism.

However being a potent anti glucocorticoid

From my experience too much tren leads to water retention via decreased cortisol and increased water retation

I postulate it may be from the 11b hydroxylase because at 600mg tren E I held a lot of water

Properties unlike nandrolone show a definete leaning out making me believe that it increases TBPA thus increasing free thyroid hormones

But that is just speculation maybe seth will chime in on that one

 

[crazyfool405]

However progesteones are able to inhibit 11b hydroxysteroid dehydrogenade. And inhibition of that makes up for the antagonistic effect it has on the mineral corticoid

So either of those 2 may be reasons

 

[crazyfool405]

Would you like a broken down segment on cortisol, rebound, and water retention. I may be able to swing that one next week wen I'm not so busy

 

[Juiced]

However being a potent anti glucocorticoid

From my experience too much tren leads to water retention via decreased cortisol and increased water retation

I postulate it may be from the 11b hydroxylase because at 600mg tren E I held a lot of water

Properties unlike nandrolone show a definete leaning out making me believe that it increases TBPA thus increasing free thyroid hormones

I HIGHLY doubt you ran legit tren then(maybe deca posing in a tren bottle), or your diet was completely off. Trenebolene does NOT bloat or cause water retention. Its packs on lean muscle and shreds you to bits. You can easily put on 10-15lbs of solid muscle while droping BF if you diet is correct. I have run both Tren ace and Enanth, neither cause what you mentioned.

Also you say deca leaned you out??? your getting your substances mixed up. Deca has some of the wettest gains out of anabolics. Even NPP(shorter version of deca) causes some water retention.

 

[crazyfool405]

I think you may have MISREAD what I wrote

I said tren unlike nandrolone leads to a leaning out. So please re read that statement


However in reference to your personal experience. That may be the case. However it is a scientific fact that when you inhibit the 11b hydroxylase enzyme. You lower cortisol but mineral corticoid deoxycorrticosterone is increased leading to salt and watyer retentiom

Nandrolone. Being "wet" is possible however refering to them that way may actually be wrong asa any steriod that works specific enzymes may increase deoxycorticosterone leading to water retention

Maybe you appear softer on NPP or nandrolone may be due to estrogenic effects because of mixed agonist and antagonist properties at the PR

 

[crazyfool405]

On a further note I think people like to refer to aromatiZing or non aromatizing steriods as wet of dry respectivly whilst that's IS NOT the case.

PPlex for example non aromatizing is refered to as WET bc it effects mineralcorticoid balance

 

[crazyfool405]

I HIGHLY doubt you ran legit tren then(maybe deca posing in a tren bottle), or your diet was completely off. Trenebolene does NOT bloat or cause water retention. Its packs on lean muscle and shreds you to bits. You can easily put on 10-15lbs of solid muscle while droping BF if you diet is correct. I have run both Tren ace and Enanth, neither cause what you mentioned.

Also you say deca leaned you out??? your getting your substances mixed up. Deca has some of the wettest gains out of anabolics. Even NPP(shorter version of deca) causes some water retention.

I never posted that as seen with testosterone administration in high doses it may likely lead to that increase in deoxcorticosterone.

With tren it happens at higher doses. I noticed it at 600mg (never went hight). But at 200-400 mg it doesn't do that from my experience.

Any inhibition of that for a long period of time leads to the cortisol rebound while dose is beginning to be reduced (seen with test much more so thn with tren)

Sorry for misunderstanding

 

[sethroberts]

Hey guys,

Sorry I have been MIA and a few probably thought I died from my last cycle LOL

Well I am alive and well and bloodwork was solid. So I'm good for another cycle.

However this thread is meant for everyone to understand "the why" of test and nandrolone stacking

All information taken from Seth Roberts Anabolic Pharmacology and put here for people to know why it works so great

You ready? Let's break it down piece by piece

Testosterone-

Well its pretty obvious why this is in the cycle to help libido and so forth. However,

Testosterone binds very well to SHBG and little is in the free state. With T administration 11b hydroxylase (enzyme that effects glucocorticoids and mineralcortiods) is inhibited. This means that a decrease in in free, total and cortisol binding globulin. With the inhibition of that enzyme results in the increase of deoxycorticosterone whis is responsible for the increase in sodium and water retention leading to the "bloat" and high BP

Along with this. Testosterone does not seem to affect thyroid binding globulin or thyroid binding prealbumin very much so the "leaning out" some people see with other AAS MAY not apply to this (every case is different)

Now we add nandrolone. Remember that T bind well to SHBG. Well Nandrolone reduces SHBG whi may "knock" some T as well as estrogen in the free state to be circulated.

With nandrolone administration there is no appartant inhibition of 11b hydroxylase so testosterone is causing the bloat that you get. But also with nandrolone you are inhibiting an enzyme called 21 hydroxylase. And that was shown through reductiom in NON bound cortisol (this is how 21 hydroxylase works) shown with chronic administration of nandrolone. This is also good because it can decrease the amount of deoxycorticosterone (which os increased with using test)


So a mineral corticoid imbalance may not be the reason for water retention


Now with Nandrolone you see increases in TBG and TBPA which shows a slight reduction in free thyroid hormones. For this reason it is why most people may want to include an oral steriod because most methylated steriods decrease TBG and therefor show an increase in TBPA which can "lean you out"
Now AI uses become important for any supraphysiological doses of test.

Howvwer many will argue AI vs SERM. The fact is. Gyno can still happen after ending cycle and pct with an AI due to nandrolones increase in estrone which can be comverted back to estradiol

To control estrone a SERM is warented. Estradiol an AI. So my opinion is something along the lines of

I3C and 6 bromo

Now if you want to use nandrolone and make it more potent in target tissues you can use a 5a reductase inhibitor (but this is a discussion better brought about another time) however it can increase the risk for androgenic sides

This is just one stack and remember they could be consequences of aldosterone (mineralcorticoid) inhibition so please cycle carefully

I'm going to sue you for copyright infringement :damnit1:

Just kidding. I wish more people would read it and discuss it. 11-beta hydroxylase inhibition is somethign that was "undiscovered" byt the community and there is a lot of other info in the book that is not common knowledge and should bring about some interesting conversations.

 

[crazyfool405]

You book is my bible as you can see

I wanted people to know why test and nandrolone work well together

You have another book I'd love to read it. I marked up the old one so much.

 

[sethroberts]

You book is my bible as you can see

I wanted people to know why test and nandrolone work well together

You have another book I'd love to read it. I marked up the old one so much.

I have been toying with the idea of an online newsletter or paid forum but I have been really busy so I haven't had much time to put any serious work behind it.

 

[crazyfool405]

You book is my bible as you can see

I wanted people to know why test and nandrolone work well together

You have another book I'd love to read it. I marked up the old one so much.

 

[sethroberts]

You book is my bible as you can see

I wanted people to know why test and nandrolone work well together

You have another book I'd love to read it. I marked up the old one so much.

Have you developed a stutter?

 

[crazyfool405]

Yea just a little stutter lol