SERMs

[MarBaSxx]

I guess going off of personal experience I have only used a SERM once in 7 or so cycles. And that was from X-Tren, I ran it too high and too long as was shut down hard. But besides that... I think some people here are over doing it with the SERMs. Nolva and Clomid both have side effects and liver toxicity on there own. I think its good to have one on hand in case you need it, but running huge doses of Nolva after a Epi cycle isnt a good idea. What do you all think. Lately all i have run after cycles is an ATD. And i usually only use it for acouple weeks. I never notice any sides during PCT and my libido never crashes (besides the one time during x-tren) I think people should listen to there bodies more...it will guide you

 

[nosnmiveins]

i agree somewhat, its all about listening to ur body. ive always had great success with low doses of either nolva or clomid. it boggles my mind when i see ppl running 300, 200, 100mg of clomid or 60, 40mg of nolva....its just not needed

 

[dpfisher]

I think the nolva dosing gets a little insane at times. There's really no reason to go over 20 unless you are having gyno syptoms. I think used properly SERMs will always be a safer bet for PCT than an OTC, at least for someone who does multiple cycles. If you are just doing one then sure, but if you are going to do another cycle you want to get back to equilibrium as fast as possible and stay that way as long as possible before you suppress yourself again.

 

[Just4Kix916]

I totally agree with the overdoing of the SERMs. Although I am new to PH's I have done a ton of research for the last 2 years on just about any kind of PH cycle and what everyone suggests for PCT and it seams the first thing brought up in a PH cycle discussion is are you going to use Clomid or Nolva or both for PCT?

I am always one for playing it safe and as far as i'm concerned playing it safe means keeping clomid or Nolva on hand JUST IN CASE. I think these SERMs are severely abused and the reason most people have them in their PCT is because they don't do their research like they should. They listen to the first thing people tell them at the gym or, go with the most common advice on forums.

I am a firm believer in listening to your body and after doing more and more research I have found Primordial Performance Total Recovery Stack is the best PCT for many PH's. It's much more safe and a whole heck of alot easier to get ahold of. Shoot you never actually know if your even getting legit Clomid or Nolva unless they are pill form and you know exactly what to look for. They are dangerous enough as it is. A large portion of the community doesn't even know these SERMs have side effects and toxicity levels.

Good post MarBaSxx

 

[dpfisher]

I respectfully disagree, I think the toxicity is hyped up by people trying to sell OTC PCT products. SERMs are more well researched and have been in use longer than many of the OTC products.

 

[H8dook]

I respectfully disagree, I think the toxicity is hyped up by people trying to sell OTC PCT products. SERMs are more well researched and have been in use longer than many of the OTC products.

Exactly....clomid and nolva aren't really all that hepatotoxic to begin with.

 

[wedlund6]

i stoped running serm and hope to never have to again. i run otc pct i feel i recover faster.no libido or energy crash.i run shorter cycles 4 or 5 weeks. my last cycle was epi 40 andro 600
5 weeks.
pct-atd/t-bol/l-dopa/zma/crtisol support.i have ran pct with
6 bromo also with good luck.and yes i have a serm on hand.

 

[SeanEH]

What does listening to your body mean? Are you doing bloodwork? If not, you have no real idea what's going on with your body. I've seen a lot of logs where people felt perfectly fine and had shocking lab results.

 

[wedlund6]

yes i get boodwork done.listening to your body means low libido,low energy,lossing gaines ,lossing strength.after many cycles you should get a idea of where you are at when you are on cycle off cycle or recoveing are full recovered.i would have a hard time believing someone with low test did not loss any strength.imo

 

[SeanEH]

yes i get boodwork done.

Can you post some results? The effectiveness of OTC PTC vs. SERM seems kind of hard to evaluate, since SERMs have hundreds of studies going back decades, and OTC has maybe a few logs here and there.

 

[wedlund6]

i,m starting a tren cycle next week. i'm going to use a otc pct
i have been debating about posting my pct.blood test at start,week 2 week4. my wife does my bloodwork for me.i still need
her on board.

 

[wedlund6]

as far as old bloodwork i can look i mit have my result form a epi a couple month back

 

[lennoxchi]

What does listening to your body mean? Are you doing bloodwork? If not, you have no real idea what's going on with your body. I've seen a lot of logs where people felt perfectly fine and had shocking lab results.

best post so far^^^^^

Bloodwork folks, bloodwork.
there are the simple things like smaller nuts and so on but there's more going on than that........ldl, hdl, test, estro levels....

 

[neverstop]

you "feel" means NOTHING AT ALL. I was shut down brutal after a failed PCT and "fealt" pretty much fine.

You are basically saying that SERMs which have hundreds of studies and decades of research and so are known to have some side effects which are well understood are MORE dangerous than some lab chemical that's been out for 7 months and not researched at all?!?! I agree the doses are high on here but I have no desire to use an OTC PCT. All the REAL bloodwork I've seen show them to not be even close to as effective as SERMs. maybe for a short Hdrol or epi cycle you'll be fine but not for me...

 

[SeanEH]

as far as old bloodwork i can look i mit have my result form a epi a couple month back

I'd be very interested in seeing it. There's really not a lot of lab data out there.

 

[dpfisher]

Let me put it this way: I gained more from clomid than I did from the cycle preceding it. Also had higher appetite, higher aggression, and more strength. Why would you NOT want that? Just because you can get away without it?

 

[wedlund6]

maybe some ppl mit want to be legal.some ppl are old have teen aged kid good jobs and do not want to explain to thier boss kids wife and courts y they were in possession of a serm with out a prescription.not that i have allways done every thing legal

 

[mcgee1516]

Well im about to start a 10 week run of TestE @500mgs and was planning on running nolva for my pct at 40/20/20/10 but after reading this thread I'm starting to second guess myself, although most of the research I've done suggest that dosage...is it stil too high for a test cycle?

 

[ephedroman]

Just as the wise saying "more isnt always better". It goes with anything, I mean think of this way..some people go on a bulk as an excuse to eat whatever the hell they want and they think more calories will be better for muscle growth, yeh thats true and great but the body can only absorb but so much for muscle growth while the rest goes into fat storage.

So extremely high dosages of nolva and clomid would just seem stupid to me seeing as its gonna be effective to an extent but you could have gotten the same results at a lower dosage without wasting all that serm.

 

[EasyEJL]

maybe some ppl mit want to be legal.some ppl are old have teen aged kid good jobs and do not want to explain to thier boss kids wife and courts y they were in possession of a serm with out a prescription.not that i have allways done every thing legal

So the steroids are ok? Just not the SERMs? note that basically none of the common "over the counter" steroids are truly legal except a few from AMS + LG Sciences. You want to explain to your boss, wife etc what Superdrol is? or that halodrol was designed off a steroid used by the eastern european powerlifting teams in the 60s + 70s?

 

[lennoxchi]

So the steroids are ok? Just not the SERMs? note that basically none of the common "over the counter" steroids are truly legal except a few from AMS + LG Sciences. You want to explain to your boss, wife etc what Superdrol is? or that halodrol was designed off a steroid used by the eastern european powerlifting teams in the 60s + 70s?

T-bol......ta-da

 

[MarBaSxx]

SERMs have plenty of research...but what about these research chems people are buying from some no name guy probably mixing the stuff in his bathtub. I bet 98% of people running these compounds are NOT getting blood work done either.

 

[skidalybop50]

i,m starting a tren cycle next week. i'm going to use a otc pct
i have been debating about posting my pct.blood test at start,week 2 week4. my wife does my bloodwork for me.i still need
her on board.

what are you going to use for your pct?

 

[taze13]

I think people should listen to there bodies more...it will guide you

I let blood work guide me. And my blood work always comes out good with a serm.

 

[Cordeen]

Out of curiousity I've been doing some reading on what seems to be the common dosages of Nolva whether it be for gyno treatment, PCT following PH/DS cycles or to restore one's test levels. So far I have seen varying amounts 40mg+/day to as low as 10mg/day.

However, I also found a study on 5mg/day compared to higher dosages. Has anyone on these boards actually ran Nolva as low as 5mg/day and seen results? Interesting study below.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3931502?dopt=Abstract